Lover had something very telling in his most recent post and I wanted to comment on it-
"The average fan is going to say the same thing, the teams in the 90's are what people remember, if you ask the general person about ETSU, barring them being a Jacksonville fan, they are going to say yea I know them, they're that team that was so good in the early 90's, whatever happened to them?"
That's absurd. The only basketball figure to acheive national attention from ETSU is Ed DeChellis in recent years, as he is now a rising star coach in the Big 10 Conference.
And a contemporary Big 10 Conference coach is much more prominent than a bit player for the Golden State Warriors who played over a decade ago, just as two recent NCAA berths with a Sports Illustrated prediction of making the Sweet 16 is going to be on the mindsmore than a 1-4 run in the NCAA Tournament nearly 20 years ago.
THAT SETTLED- my point here is that ETSU fans are extremely petty and continue to live in the past.
Pittsburgh Steelers fans love the 70s Steelers, but they love the contemporary crew as well and to the same degree.
Same with the Green Bay Packers. Sure they love the Lombardi era, but it's not like they are turning their backs on Bret Favre.
In fact, that's the way it is EVERYWHERE . . . .
Except ETSU.
I AM CONVINCED that ETSU could win the freaking NATIONAL TITLE next year and people would still say the 90s teams were better and the Bucs would only draw 2,000 fans a game (and report 5,000).
That comment by Lover says it all. While I realize those Bucs teams DID make the NCAAs for four straight years, the teams of this era actually WON the Southern Conference (and a tougher So Con, too, with the arrival of C of C and Davidson) for the same period of time.
Yes, the NCAA is a glamorous prize, but it isn't as if the early decade ETSU teams didn't make it multiple times or weren't competitive.
So why then were they not playing in front of crowds of 9,000 folks, like the former team did not just against NC State but against Appalachian as well?
Why weren't the games always on TV, like the road tilts against ORAL ROBERTS or somebody like that were- complete with color commentary from Norm Sloan!
Where was the discussion on the talk shows, the passion in the community, just the same interest?
I realize it took some time for it to build up the first time. You would not have known the Bucs were in the NCAAs in 1989 if you had walked on campus the day of the game against Oklahoma.
I'm not buying four vs. two. By the time ETSU made it in 2003 the two regular season titles should have been enough of a precursor to attract attention- just as the surprise 1989 berth was to the early 90s teams.
Why is it that people think ETSU dropped their football program in 2003 and their basketball program in 1993?
The 90's teams were RANKED, and they won a game in the NCAA tournament. Two things that the 2000 era ETSU teams can't lay claim to. Plus nobody was really a great fan of DeChellis I don't think, they were just happy with the winning.
No pluralities. There was one team that was ranked- and it finished No. 17 in the nation in 1991.
You mention that if you theorically, say, went to Disneyworld and said you were an ETSU guy that people would say "Whatever happened to the great ETSU teams of the early 90s?"
I say you can't remember who finished No. 17 in college basketball in 1990 or 1992 and certainly nobody outside the area will remember who finished No. 17 in 1991. It was a fun time but will not go down in history with George Mason's run this year.
The '89, '90, and '92 teams never were ranked.
It also should be said that the last act of the era was ETSU's win in the tournament- and they beat Arizona- who in that era lost to whoever they drew in the NCAA tournament. It was high time that the Bucs won a game in the tournament- they'd been there three years before and even that No. 17 team could only draw a No. 10 seed and they lost to Iowa- a game they should have won.
It wasn't as if the Bucs won in their first year and then made it three straight years. If that was the case, yes, I would buy the "what can we do for an encore" spirit and interest.
But the Bucs blew the game to Oklahoma and were trounced by Georgia Tech. It makes no sense.
I'm not sure what you say about DeChellis is true; he threw pep rallies at his home, did the best rebuilding effort in the program's history and went out of his way to embrace the community.
The word of an idiot on the message board is one thing, the positive message coming from the mayor of Johnson City is another.
However, if ETSU fans can't embrace the second-best coach the program has ever had, then you have proven everything I have ever said about the area being a bad sports town and the fans being geographical bigots.
It is simple stats Pitt.
Comparing 4 years vs 4 years
I am not going to talk about regular season titles since they mean nothing and in alot of cases for both teams they involved in 2 or 3 way ties for first and Modern team had divisons and the Classic team didn't.
Modern Era team
Overall Record 83-37 Winning % .691
SoCon tournament record 7-2
NCAA tournament appearances 2 Record 0-2
20 wins seasons 2
Record againist teams from Power Conferenes
1- 13
Win
Houston
Classic team
Overall record 99-30 Winning % .767
SoCon tournament record 12-0
NCAA tournament appearances 4 record 1-4
20 win seasons 4
Record againist teams from Power conferences
10-10
Wins
NC State 3
Tennessee 2
Wake Forest 1
Miss State 1
Cinnicinnati 1
Memphis 1
Arizona 1
I didn't include big TV wins like our preseason NIT win over BYU or our win againist UNC-Charolette on ESPN's Midnight Madness game (both on the road). ETSU had alot more exposure nationwide with big high profile wins back then with National rankings not just in a Mid-Major Poll.
R
It does, however, ask you to say those "power conference" wins were against Top 20 type teams.
They were not. Tennessee was the worst team in the SEC back then and obviously would have had trouble finishing in the middle of the pack of the Southern Conference.
NC State was on the way down, and perhaps the only thing that allowed the Bucs to beat them in 1990 was that the court was unplayable and Corchiani slipped on the water there.
That's like bragging on baseball victories in games decided by crooked foul lines and corked bats.
By bringing up those games against down teams (not that Houston wasn't down when the Bucs beat them), you bring up a fascinating element I did not previously consider.
Did the "Classic" Bucs have to cheat to win?
Regardless, they did have to get through a weaker conference, so the point about Southern Conference Tournament records and 20 win seasons are moot. It is more impressive for a football team to go 7-2 in the ACC than it is to go 12-0 in Division I-AA, and it is more impressive to go 7-2 on the road and against the likes of C of C, UNC-G, and Davidson than it is to go 12-0 against the likes of VMI and pre-Billy Donovan Marshall.
Regardless, that doesn't change the original question.
Shaw- you're jacked about the Steelers winning the Super Bowl last year, right? I don't know if you were around in the 70s, but if you were, you're feeling the same emotions, correct?
Then why can't you feel the same way about the Bucs?
The thing is Pitt, no matter how strong those teams might or might have been they were teams from the top conferences and ETSU was able to play 500 againist them. 10-10 vs 1-13. At least ETSU was able to beat some of them vs 1 win againist Houston. You talk about some of the "weak" teams the old beat, what about some of the weak teams from the power conferences the Modern team lost to?
As for Tennessee being a terrible SEC team.
We beat thm in 89-90 season
Tennessee went 16-14 and 10-8 in the SEC
Went to the NIT and went 1-1.
in 91-92 they were 19-15 and 8-8 IN SEC
They also went to the NIT and went 1-1
Record against the SoCon 5 years (1 year before 1st ETSU game, 1 year After 2nd)
88-89 season
UTC 91-76W
89-90 Season
ETSU 83-70L
Western Carolina 92-66W
90-91 season
UTC 92-69W
91-92 season
ETSU 87-79L
Furman 92-74W
92-93 season
Western Carolina 97-55W
Furman 90-77W
Sorry but a middle of pack SEC team would be a top SoCon team. period.
As for the conference being stronger I don't buy that either. No way to really prove that, just your opinion vs mine. we had fewer teams back then but still had some strong teams. UTC, Furman, Appy, Marshall.
I am proud of ETSU going to the NCAA 2 years in a row but to say that team is better or even on the level of the Classic team is like saying this verison of the Steelers which kept making it to the AFC championship game and losing before winning the Super Bowl last year is on the same level of the team that won 4 in the 80's. I am very happy with both results but I also know which team was better.
R
But what I'm saying is that I've been in Pittsburgh and Johnson City. I've seen first hand how the fans react.
Remember, two days before Super Bowl XIV when Bradshaw rallies the Steelers to two touchdowns in the fourth quarter to beat the Rams, I'm a kid at Linden Elementary being dismissed from school to "The Steeler Polka."
And you know what? It was the same way in the 90s for those good but not great Steelers teams. I lived through them both. The fan interest was as great as it was in the 70s.
This year- and you have to admit NOBODY really thought the Steelers were going into Indy and beating the Colts (we hoped, we thought it possible, but we did not think it probable)- but I'm driving around Pittsburgh listening to WDVE and the playlist is- not making this up- AC/DC, Nickelback, and The Steeler Polka with the same lyrics I heard being dismissed from school from in the third grade.
Perhaps the Bill Cowher Steelers have not been as dominant as the Chuck Noll Steelers, but the fan interest was just as great.
So lets make that analogy. Let's say the DeChellis Bucs were the equivilent of the Cowher Steelers and the Robinson/LeForce Bucs were the Chuck Noll Steelers (though that's equating ONE NCAA Tourney win over a team that was routinely beaten in the first round to four Super Bowl Victories. Yet even with that absurdity, the analogy isn't that bad).
Where's the fan support? You could see those teams were climbing at the beginning of the decade. When you go from 7-20 to 17-12 in two years and nobody notices, something is wrong.
There is no excuse for the fans on this one.
I want to know why. Nobody in Green Bay said they didn't care about the Packers in 1996 because Mike Holmgren wasn't as good as Vince Lombardi. The fan interest was just as high.
Only reasons- bad sports town and geographical bigotry.
I don't know where the "fans" are. I have been in the stands for some good teams and the terrible teams pre-Robinson, the "Glory" years. For the long fall and the climb back up. There were alot of bandwagon fans who got jumped on back after the first NCAA appearance and stayed on through the next 3 and a bit beyond. Also the decline wasn't as sharp back then. ETSU went 19-10 and made it back to the Championship game the 5th year. Under DeChellis they were good but not great, 18-10, 18-10. winning or sharing parts of the North crown, early exits from the tournament. Then they broke though and won and went to the NCAA. DeChellis left all the fans jumped on the bandwagon for Bartow and rode it back to the NCAA, the next year started strong (fan wise) but they lost interest when they realized the ride wasn't going to be very long.
a 10-19 season and a move to the A-Sun and all the fickle fans have moved on.
The success wasn't long enough to bring in the fair weather fans and keep them the team has to make a splash 1 year to attract "fans" to come out and watch the next year, and then stay successful to keep them. The first team was much more successful doing that then that latter team.
R
I would say that by ETSU standards what ETSU did was great under DeChellis. If it wasn't the greatest run in modern ETSU history, it was in the Top Two.
And again, New York Yankees fans in 1928 did not turn their noses up and say "This team is not as good as the one before and I am not going to the games!"
You say you don't know. I say Bad Sports Town and Geographical Bigotry (in that the best coach ETSU has had since Brooks isn't embraced because he didn't grow up barefoot in Roan Mountain or something).
Yes Pitt, I tried it last night in Knoxville. I asked some of the Cal fans last night in conversations about basketball/football if they'd heard of ETSU. I found two people who knew who we were, and both of them said you guys are the team that beat Arizona. They know NOTHING else about ETSU.
And I don't really care what kind of keggers the mayor in Johnson City hosts, DeChellis was a jerk, he just managed to win games, hence being tolerated.
The mayor is holding keggers?
THEN WHY DIDN'T WE CAMPAIGN HARDER FOR HIM?
If that's the sort of spin you have to put forth to call DeChellis a jerk, then I rest my case.
The sad thing is you never met the man. You're going off the hearsay of others, which I gather to be finger pointers from your so-called "in crowd" of ancillary figures around the athletic dept.
It is not my concern that the Berkley crowd only knows of ETSU from their NCAA Tournament win over Arizona.
My question is why that's all anyone in Johnson City knows.
Again, bad sports town and you just displayed your own geographical bigotry.
Ah, but the 90's teams generated incredible national attention. There were multiple stories in USA Today and Sports Illustrated concerning the Bucs. And they weren't just writing about one team member.
ETSU made it all the way up to #8 in the USA Today poll. They got screwed in the NCAA Tourney Brackets (they were ranked 8th nationally and seeded 9th in their region, if I remember correctly).
Every starter on that team was a model representative. The media loved them and they never embarrased the institution. People loved the team because they loved the players. The coaches were also appreciated.
I drove 100 miles for most home games. When I lived in Florida (89-90 season), I drove up for a game. An ETSU basketball game was an event. You felt like you knew the players and the coaches. And they were people you wanted to know.
Ah but Kevster, DeChellis was so great, kind of like that guy in the commercials talking about "Jonas."
If it were Pitt the script would be: "Eddie D is so smart. DeChellis likes to learn. DeChellis likes to coach basketball. DeChellis likes to lie to the media."
Whatever. Who cares? Fact is the media could do that survey during basketball season, and the responses would be overwhelming to the Les Robinson era.
Kev- first of all, incredible exposure is what Notre Dame football has.
I can remember a piece in Sporting News on the early 90s Bucs, yes.
That's not incredible exposure. That's "Hey, this team we've never heard of is now ranked No. 15. Let's find out who they are."
By that definition, the Johnson City Cardinals received "incredible" attention when Rick Ankiel played for them in 2001.
Again, exposure doesn't impress me. What you've just told me isn't so much that the 90s Bucs were better (which isn't even what I'm arguing- way to spin)- it's that the SID Dept of ETSU was better.
Also- no- ETSU was ranked No. 17 at the time and was seeded 10th in the tourney that year.
Did they get the shaft in tourney seeding? For sure. But that's what happens when 90% of your fan base come football season would rather sit in seat number 106,384 of Neyland Stadium than at 50 yard line for an ETSU game.
And overly romantic notions of the 89-92 team aside, you're getting off the point.
My question- why is it that ETSU could WIN THE NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP and then every one of their players could forgo any career they might have in pro basketball to become a MONK and they'd still have people like you say-
"Whatever happened to the great teams of the 90s?"
Two other things-
One is to VolLover remember when you said "DeChellis lies to the media?"
WHO WAS IT THAT BROKE THAT STORY?
And I'm a shill for DeChellis?
No, I think a shill for DeChellis would be a sportswriter who actually is lied to, just accepts it, and then writes positive "How is he doing at his new job?" stories in the time that follows.
Don't you?
Second comment- Kev- Please don't propagandize the character of the old ETSU teams. You're better than that.
I'm not saying they were jerks or that they weren't, for the most part, nice guys.
I am saying Alvin West once tried to sell me a test and that Keith Jennings never graduated.
Does this make them murderers? Of course not.
But its enough to refute the overly romantic notion of their character you tried to put forth which not only is untrue, but borders on Idol Worship.
Here's one for you, Pitt. I drove up for an ETSU game and got there about an hour early. Mister was standing next to the ramps by the ticket booth. He didn't know me from Adam. As I walked toward the ticket booth, he said, "Do you need tickets for the game?"
I told him I was going to buy a couple. He told me he has two extra that weren't being used and I coud have them.
No romanticizing. Just facts. Here are the guys I remember as being great ball players and people: Mister Jennings, Marty Story, Calvin Talford, Greg Dennis, Major Greer. Honestly, other than the name, I can't remember anything about Alvin West. Did he start or come off the bench?
Also, Jason Niblett and Eric Palmer were fun players to watch after Mister left.
Well you know Pitt was at so many of the modern era teams games. We all saw him at every game, on press row, hand in hand with the rest of the media. Oh no wait, nevermind, just kidding.
Why are we talking about this, isn't it volleyball and soccer time in East Tennessee?
ETSU was ranked as high as 10th and then lost to Furman on the road right before the SoCon tournament. They were ranked 17th when the brackets came out and got screwed with a 10 seed.
ETSU got a poor seed because of the Talford injury and yes injuries to key players do effect the seeding, ask Cinncinnati about when Kenyon Martin got hurt and they didn't get a #1 seed.
Not to beat a dead horse, but why not. The 10th ranking was AP. They were 3 to 4 spots higher in the coaches poll for most of the season. I can't remember if they got up to 6th or 7th, but they were definitely in single digits. I used to buy USA Today when the polls came out (this was before the Internet was what it is now) and check out the rankings every week.
I'll beat that dead horse also. I remember that night well. The AP Poll came out and we were 10th in the nation. It was a Monday night and UTC was in town. We headed over to the dome about an hour before game time (those were the days). And promptly with our highest AP ranking ever, in front of a huge crowd, we got beat. Still a fun season.