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...to turn into a slamfest on Marshall.

I'm a little shocked.

I thought it was MY university that was embarrassed on Tuesday night; not Marshall.

I expected all the people to ask what kind of people we were hiring at Miami. Really, I did.

I'm not in the camp that wants the entire Miami coaching staff dismissed (although there are plenty of Miami people who are there). But, I don't think Marshall or its coaching staff did anything wrong on Tuesday night. I'm not sure how you could say they did. They certainly didn't do anything that hasn't been done at 300 different venues around the country.

How many times have fans "stormed the field" after a big victory? I know I did the last time we won the MAC when I was a student in 1986. I carried the fargin' goal posts up to North Quad. And the police let us do it.

I'm not saying that guy belonged on the field. I'm not saying that he didn't "drop the f-bomb" on Wauford. But I am saying that Wauford was wrong to jack him. Wauford was wrong, and he should be punished. Whatever WVA decides to do about its security or about this idiot fan is up to them.

As far as the internet threats by Marshall fans were concerned, I already addressed that. Many people thought those threats were credible. If you don't know why, you haven't been hanging around message boards a whole lot. Many people are afraid of going to Huntington. Real or perceived, people are afraid. I had people who didn't come to our joint Miami/Marshall Atlanta club party the other night because they were worried about their safety. Again, I'm not saying that's justified, but that is the perception. Perhaps, in this case, perception has become reality.

<a href='http://www.ncaabbs.com/forums/mac/invision/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=2244&s=07d646712fbacf28ce0ea172fafcd3cc' target='_blank'>What I said before</a>



<!--EDIT|Dodo|Nov 14 2002, 09:29 PM-->
Thanks, Dodo. Good post.

I respectfully disagree about the internet threats. Imagine if Marshall put out the following:

It is unfortunate that Byron Leftwich was unable to play in the game out of fear that he would be the target of attempts to end his career. Several posts on internet message boards referenced an effort to "sweep the leg" of Leftwich. It was decided it was not worth the risk to play him.
I agree with you Dodo concerning the perception of Huntington, WV and that part of the country, whether correctly or incorrectly.

It is definitely a... unique (I suppose that would be a good way to put it) place.

As for Miami, it's only an issue of having two problems with two individual Coaches. Handle these issues the right way, and Miami gains some of their lost respect back, but handle them incorrectly and the University takes on the look of nothing more than a bunch of hooligans running an asylum.

From the sounds of things thus far though, I see the former being the outcome of this whole situation.



<!--EDIT|MylesKnight|Nov 14 2002, 09:18 PM-->
The RedBack Gorillas need to go eat a bunch of bananas. This isn't The Planet of the Apes, you aren't in control.
Kit-Cat Wrote:The RedBack Gorillas need to go eat a bunch of bananas. This isn't The Planet of the Apes, you aren't in control.
What in the "Athens, OH" is that supposed to mean?
Dodo,

I am shocked that you are surprised at the anti-Marshall sentiment that has been expressed here. The majority of the posts on this site typically involve some kind of anti-Marshall sentiment, whether deserved or not. So after Tuesday night I expected no less than the classless drivel that has been running rampant here the past couple of days. Many folks on here have no class, they do not equally apply expectations to all persons and schools and most can not post a rational, logical thought in an unbiased fashion (Marshall fans included).

I agree with your thoughts concerning Wauford. No coach is justified in slugging a fan, whether it would be a coach from Miami, Marshall or Podunk University.

I respectfully disagree with your thoughts concerning internet message boards. Anyone that takes information from a MB and takes it as gospel has a few screws loose. Even if that is a perception that exists at Miami, I was somewhat surprised and disappointed that the university would even refer to such while trying to explain the actions from Tuesday night.

Finally, let me commend you on your response to the events from Tuesday. You are the one individual on this board that has shown class, accountability and a sense of fairness thru all of this mess. I look forward to reading your posts and enjoy reading your insight. You are truly a class act and a wonderful representative of Miami University.
First of all, it often develops into a slamfest on Marshall. That's just present reality.
Same reason why I quite checking out the michiganlive board a while back.

It does seem kind of wierd that this has spun 180 degrees. Now the Marshall fan is assumed to be a drunk lunatic. I've been on that field a couple of times, even toted a goal post myself in '92, and I never thought twice about it. It seems that those days are about to come to an abrupt end. Too bad. And most on this board feel it's cheatin' Marshall's fault. Beautiful.

Even this morning on ESPN I thought I saw Hoeppner using the reasoning that there was a credible threat to his staff and players; it seemed like he was nearly excusing the act based on what he heard or read. Now the issue has also been spun nationally to paint Marshall fans not at avid supporters of their team, but as unreasonable rapid sociopaths. Again, beautiful. Maybe next year some coach, or even a player maybe, can take another shot at a Marshall fan and it will get us re-expelled from the MAC.


As for people being afraid of going to Huntington? Jeesh! I really cannot conceive of being afraid of Huntington unless you are from...well I can't think of anywhere. Hell, I used to think Huntington had a bad side of town, until I moved to Durham, NC.

I used to think that there were some unfriendly people, until I moved to an area with a bunch of northern transplants. Huntington is not Cleveland or Philly; an opposing fan is not going to get a beating for wearing another jersey. If they had a decent economy, I'd move back tomorrow.
fatmanjim Wrote:Finally, let me commend you on your Gorilla banana to the events from Tuesday. You are the one ape on this board that has shown class, accountability and a sense of fairness thru all of this mess. I look forward to reading your bananas and enjoy peeling your bananas. You are truly a RedBack Gorilla act and a wonderful representative of MOH.
:pooh: :pooh: :pooh: :pooh: :pooh: :pooh: :pooh: :pooh: :pooh: :pooh: :pooh: :pooh: :pooh: :pooh: :pooh: :pooh: :pooh: :pooh: :pooh:
CarolinaHerdOn Wrote:an opposing fan is not going to get a beating for wearing another jersey.
I'm not blaming Marshall at all for Tuesday's incident. But I have heard a lot of things from folks, not just on message boards, about fans throwing things - many things, beers, chew loogies, spit, all kinds of stuff - at opposing fans and teams. Is that unique? No. But that perception and the rumours do exist. That doesn't mean all Marshall fans participate in this behavior, but it gives the good ones a bad name.

I've heard BG fans say DeKalb was less than friendly this past weekend. I want Huskie Stadium to be less than friendly for the opposition, but I don't want that to involve throwing items or physical violence (except when our DBs and LBs starting sticking opposing WRs!!). Unfortunately, it's always some clueless morons that leave more of an impression than the classy ones.
Some of the guys on here know this already, but I got a sort of "death threat" back in the Spring from a guy claiming to be a Marshall fan. Even though I knew it wasn't credible, it did make me think very seriously about not moderating anymore. Heck, the guy who sent the threat found a picture of my wife, and told me where she worked. I never mentioned it to my wife because it would have needlessly scared her; however, I was a little pissed. Obviously, it wasn't necessarily a Marshall fan, but it did color my opinion for a time.

Relative to the current situation, it's entirely possible that someone actually e-mailed our coaches or players. You can get all of our coaches' e-mail addresses on our school's website. You could probably get the players' e-mails without too much trouble. It's also possible that some Miami fans sent the stuff to our football office. I don't know.

I do know for a fact that at the time those threats were over on the Herd board, many Miami folks believed the threats were real, and some people talked of contacting the authorities. Obviously, the atmosphere was charged enought that Hoepp ordered extra security.

That being said, I actually think all this is not a Miami problem or a Marshall problem, overall. It's a "sign of the times." We've gotten to a point in our society where civility is no longer an expectation. Everyone was nicer to each other on here and elsewhere for a while after 9/11, but that only lasted about 4 or 5 months. Then, people went back to flicking each other off on the highway and yelling at customer service representatives at K-Mart.

If you look at stadiums in all sports all over the country, the fan behavior is nothing to be proud of. Many of you guys know that I am a Georgia Tech season ticket holder, too (in addition to Miami). Last week at the FSU game, I was about as embarrassed as I've ever been of Tech fan's behavior. After the game, Tech fans started throwing stuff onto the field. One ref was hit with a bottle, and several FSU players were hit with stuff. I saw one kid get drenched by a drink a fan threw. I couldn't believe it. I'd never seen anything like that at Bobby Dood Stadium. Of course, the FSU team tried to go to the tunnel where Tech players were coming out before the game and taunt them. Thankfully, an FSU coach moved them away.

In a similar vein, Tech fans had been booing AJ Suggs at the beginning of the season (he's the QB) for poor play. Again, I couldn't believe the fans would boo a college kid FROM THEIR OWN TEAM! When Chan Gailey "called out" the Tech fans in the paper, many Tech fans then turned their anger on Chan. That's part of the reason that I haven't posted on the Tech board since August. I don't feel like being called a bad fan for not vilifying a 20 year-old.

I also hate the "blame the refs" mentality in sports today. I used to tell my kids I coached not to let the referee put you in a bad position. In other words, if it comes down to a referee's call, you've done something wrong. We have to hire security at my school now (as mandated by the GHSA) to escort our referees to and from their cars. How sad is that? Why would anyone want to be a referee these days?

Meanwhile, trash-talking has become the norm, and excessive celebration has become a Sportcenter highlight. Whatever happened to, "act like you've been there before" (a Miamian said that, BTW)?

I'll tell you what, sometimes I wonder how I'm going to raise a daughter and a son in this world and impart them with the kind of values of basic human decency and kindness that my parents gave to me. I'm fighting an entire media culture and society. I'm not sure I can win that battle. If I ever see my freakin' son or daughter trash talking or acting like an ass on the field.... I don't know what, but God help them.

My point is, it's not just Marshall and it's not just Miami. It's our culture.

And it's a damn shame.


03-banghead
Excellent post, Dodo. 04-bow

Perhaps too many people are trying to attach their self-worth to sports. Spectator sports is a good hobby, and we all get emotional about it sometimes. But some people allow it to overtake their egos in that they feel that the performance of the team is somehow a direct representation of themselves (European soccer riots are another good example). It appears that a lot of people took those ultra-testosterone-driven "No Fear" t-shirt messages straight to heart (you know, 'second-place is just first loser', and all that).

But, as you stated, it also goes well beyond sports. Perhaps countering the niceties of post-9/11 is also that fear of violence popping up anywhere at anytime. The sniper a month ago, near-daily melees in every corner of the world, a continuous stream of FBI "warnings" that such-and-such may blow up at anytime. Is it making people edgier?

But I digress...
Oh my God! I've become a Dodo dittohead!

Nail. Head. Pounded.

I would note only that people should withhold their judgments on the Miami administration for the moment. You have not heard their last word on the subject, and, as nearly as I can tell, this really isn't an athletic department issue any more.
DevilGrad Wrote:Oh my God! I've become a Dodo dittohead!

Nail. Head. Pounded.

I would note only that people should withhold their judgments on the Miami administration for the moment. You have not heard their last word on the subject, and, as nearly as I can tell, this really isn't an athletic department issue any more.
I would add too, that as a Marshall fan, I don't want to see anything bad happen to the Miami program over this. You guys worked hard this year and it was a good fight. I appreciate the voice of reason Dodo and DG. I will try to maintain that sentiment.
Dodo wrote: "I really wouldn't have expected this to turn into a Marshall slamfest"

I think what we are seeing is just how deep the resentment against Marshall really is and in one sense that is really too bad. FWIW here is my take.

I started reading (but not posting) on the old SO Board in 1997. In those days most Marshall posters were pretty annoying--really insufferable (with some exceptions such as TeeGee and RightStuff--who seemed to be a genuinely nice person who I sense was eventually embittered by the board exchanges). Anything anyone else's team did was insignificant compared to what Marshall did. It was like a kid who demands a parent's total and undivided attention regardless of the needs of the sibblings. Everytime someone else brought up one of their teams accomplishments, it was belittled and compared to some real or imaginary Marshall feat. This coupled with the egocentric arrogance (today the MAC, tomorrow a NC) and demeaning and insulting the conference and every other team at every opportunity turned a lot of people off. Amazingly enough, people like Harold Dishon (later Horsepower) actually initially welcomed Marshall and attended the first MCB to support the conference champion (as did Oddball). However, too many insults and put-downs sent him over the top.

This coupled with the advantages that Marshall has enjoyed such as playing the championship on their home field in what appears to be 5 out of 6 years, the extent of TV coverage, having the conference buy their way into the 2000 MCB while doing much less to secure a 10-1 deserving Toledo team a bowl bid ("priceless" according to many Marshall fans), along with the idea that these championships were won by unfair competition(in violation of NCAA rules) have done little to engender "warm and fuzzy feelings" for Marshall fans. After the 2000 season there was an ceaseless invasion of the Toledo board by some idiots from Marshall that closed the board down for a while. That coupled with the experiences of visiting fans at Marshall has pretty much sealed the deal with respect to perceptions of Marshall. Was it necessary in the 1997 MACC game to force Toledo fans to march halfway around the stadium to find their seats which gave every Marshall fan from a 80 year old geezer (shaking his cane) to 5-year olds to yell insults and worse at their "visitors". Do Marshall fans not realize that the reason fans don't want to go to Hunington is because of the reception that the will recieve (and I don't mean on the field)?

The real irony is that in the last few years many rational and reasonable Marshall fans (Fatmanjim, comes to mind, but there are many others) have begun to emerge and they are now subjected to abuse that they do not deserve. At the MACC last year I was embarrassed to see a few UT fans hurling insults at some Marshall fans (and I am NOT talking about Muther's foolish parade through lot 10).

Unfortunately, many have evidently all been dragged down to that level and the penultimate irony is that representatives of squeaky clean, holier-than-thou Miami have acted like the renegades and Marshall, which did nothing but play their hearts out with a Heisman type QB on the bench to pull out a remarkable win (referees not withstanding, they won) are the ones under attack--that is the ultimate irony.

However, don't feel too bad for all the Marshall fans---it only feeds the insecurities and sense of persecution on which many thrive---"us against the universe". I detest sterotypes and generalizations and avoid hurling demeaning terms, yet I can not help but believe this must be some malady that infects the entire state because I detect the same mentally in many WVU fans---an blantant expression of superiority that perhaps masks an enormous inferiority complex (Disclaimer---this is personal, not professional, opinion). Ham and eggs anyone?
Good post T-town. I agree with much of it. I like the us against the world mentality too. Honestly I don't know where it started but we've had it a long time. I think the voracity of our fans stems from having nothing else to do here in WV other than following our sports. IF that makes us bad guys, then so be it (I know you didn't say or imply this). But one can expect to get whatever they throw at us back in spades, good or bad. Even when Oddball says congrats Herd, like after the GMAC Bowl last year, we all posted a thanks to him for the acknowledgement. This time he chose to slam us and we wreaked havoc here. We will always be Marshall and there will always be the MAC. I don't think our key is ever gonna quite open the door. That's ok. Even the empire needs rebels.
MUther,

I know exactly where the "us against the world mentality" comes from.

It comes from two sources:

1) National perception of WVA and the South. I have lived in Georgia almost my entire life. When I went up to Miami, I was constantly subjected to Southern stereotypes. I really resented it, and what it did was foster a sense of Southern pride in me (even though my parents are from Ohio). But, when you live in the South and you are constantly subjected to negative stereotypes (some of which are probably deserved), you tend to get defensive. When you guys first came to Oxford, although no one intended any harm (and in fact, intended it as a harmless joke), I'm sure the "go home rednecks!" chant and the "dueling banjos" didn't do a lot to make you guys feel a part of the conference.

2) The crash. When a program has overcome adversity like you guys have, it's bound to lead to a little bit of a inferiority complex. You have to feel like you are always fighting against something. When you finally achieve success, having seen the absolute bottom emotionally, there's bound to be a little bit of boorishness. In addition, it's a classic "Napoleon Complex." You guys were the "little guy;" now you are the "top dog." There's going to be a tendency to be "in your face" when you've been "kicked around" so much before.

A third factor might well be that Marshall attracts a lot of fans that have no direct association with the University -- more like many of the SEC school do. You probably won't find a whole lot of people at Miami, Bowling Green, or Ball State fans who don't have some direct assocation with the university (as alums, parents, faculty members, etc...). For them, it's not just about football, it's about supporting their alma mater. I would be willing to bet that at Marshall you have a lot of morons who never set foot on the campus for any reason other than to attend a football game. It's the same thing here with UGA -- the alums are usually civil; the idiots who come to the games who have no association are usually the ones picking the fights and throwing stuff. I've yet to meet a Marshall grad in person I didn't like. Besides, I can talk about my great Miami degree all I want, but when Joe Gilette parked next to me for MU v. MU 6 he had a freakin' Jaguar, and I'm driving a 1993 Ford Escort with a three dents in the side! He was very kind not to laugh at me...

Of course, there is always obnoxious student behavior -- but that is a lot easier for universities to control than adult fan behavior.

Now, I'm not excusing the posts from some moron Marshall fans. I'm not excusing people calling up Mitch Vingle at home. I'm not excusing the idiot who threatened to shoot my wife. I'm not excusing the Marshall administration for what I truly perceive as a "football first" mentality. I'll be honest, your fans really hack me off -- and often. But like I said above, I've yet to meet a Marshall alum in person who was not welcoming, friendly, and hospitable.
Dodo - you're three for three in this thread - great posts.

"The fact that hillbilly stereotypes make as little sense as black or Native American stereotypes is of no consequence to the people who struggle to escape them."

John O'Brien
"I'll tell you what, sometimes I wonder how I'm going to raise a daughter and a son in this world and impart them with the kind of values of basic human decency and kindness that my parents gave to me. I'm fighting an entire media culture and society. I'm not sure I can win that battle. If I ever see my freakin' son or daughter trash talking or acting like an ass on the field.... I don't know what, but God help them. "

Dodo,
I agree...I have two young boys and I am in the same boat. I see all the junk and @ssholes around and think How am I gonna fight all this?
My parents taught me to win AND lose with grace and the right attitude.
I couldn't agree with you more on that issue.
There are simply places I won't take my daughter to see a sporting event. College and pro football games are at the top of the list. (Well, OK, minor league hockey is at the top of the list, but I digress...) It has become a culture of loud, drunk, obnoxious, obscene and often violent males. Others go to the games, but the inescapable tone is set by drunks who don't care what they say or do and don't care who they're around when they do it. Football games have become no longer family friendly places. It's unfortunate, and I'm sure on a given Saturday or Tuesday there are exceptions depending on the route you travel to your seats and your luck in seat locations. On those occasions you have just avoided the problem which does exist in big chunks of the stadiums in almost every place you go. :(
We go to baseball games, basketball (selective, though), and minor sports.
A kid shouldn't have to listen to the stuff you hear at most college games. My won't.
Their loss, not urs--we've got other things to do.
axeme Wrote:There are simply places I won't take my daughter to see a sporting event. College and pro football games are at the top of the list. (Well, OK, minor league hockey is at the top of the list, but I digress...) It has become a culture of loud, drunk, obnoxious, obscene and often violent males. Others go to the games, but the inescapable tone is set by drunks who don't care what they say or do and don't care who they're around when they do it. Football games have become no longer family friendly places. It's unfortunate, and I'm sure on a given Saturday or Tuesday there are exceptions depending on the route you travel to your seats and your luck in seat locations. On those occasions you have just avoided the problem which does exist in big chunks of the stadiums in almost every place you go. :(
We go to baseball games, basketball (selective, though), and minor sports.
A kid shouldn't have to listen to the stuff you hear at most college games. My won't.
Their loss, not urs--we've got other things to do.
Phuckin-A! *hiccup*
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