Just a quick perrusal of the posts on the page one at this moment:
Think Miami(Ohio) got screwed by the refs:
from Miami(Ohio): exCincyKid, devilGrad,
from UCF: UCFClay, Sleepy, KnightTime, Knight01
from WMU: BroncoMD, WMUBroncos98, Whinny
from CMU: CMichFan, nert
from EMU: HuronDave, EMUHuron
from Toledo: Oddball, Rockets1
from BGSU: Flipper, Falconfreak90
Nuetral, undecided, didn't see it, or wavering (in my view anyway):
OHIOFOOTBALL, Rampage, MotownBronco, RochesterFalcon
Think the refs were right:
from non-Marshall schools: MylesKnight
from Marshall: DaHerdisit, GreenMachiner, buck5y5., CarolinaHerdon, Marshall77, HerdSwimming, Murox, Herd-fan-4-Life, Thunder, THUNDERstruck73, OVERHERD, MAKO, RoadWarrior, MUther, Stck4489, GreenBison, Young Herdman, Herdon
from ????: Bluesmitty
The partisans (the Miami(Ohio) and Marshall fans) are divided as would be expected - each for their own teams.
It looks as if the concensus belief of the non-partisans that the refs blew the call - it seems to include almost every MAC fan that is not a HERD fan.
That, in itself, does not mean that Marshall fans are wrong - but you do have to wonder why every poster from a non-partisan perspective that has weighed in on this (with one exception), has determined from video tape and/or watching the game that the Miami(Ohio) team was robbed.
It all boils down to 36-34.
Why wouldn't Marshall fans see it one way. What are we supposed to do? Forfeit the game. Would you demand your school to do the same? As I have said before, it was a judgement call. The right call, but still one of judgement.
Why would there be such an outcry from other Mac fans? Why would you want Marshall to win? If I were in your shoes, I would not want us to win either. It would stick in my crawl that a former IAA team possibly could be in the championship game for the sixth straight year. It was also my understanding that this game was the first nationally televised for Miami. Considering their tradition, that is hard to believe. If this is true, it would infuriate me to see Marshall on ESPN all the time. I am sure this feeling is probably expressed by the majority of the conference. Finally, I am sure there is no love for Marshall's fans. Marshall fans are proud of their school's achievements and love to mention them. Whether it is true or not, this tends to be viewed as boasting by others.
Quote:That, in itself, does not mean that Marshall fans are wrong - but you do have to wonder why every poster from a non-partisan perspective that has weighed in on this (with one exception), has determined from video tape and/or watching the game that the Miami(Ohio) team was robbed.
Not to mention media all over the country.
That's not to say it was a bad call. But it sure looked like one.
My view of Marshall is this:
1. I try to root for y'all non-conference. Sometimes that's tough. But I try.
In August, Herd lust tends to reach a fever pitch, and it is a little tough for me to take. In '01, it seemed like most fans seriously believed the Herd would take down Florida. In '02, most seemed to think the Herd would take down Virginia Tech. Coupled with the Conference USA talk, the pot shots at MAC "high school stadiums" etc. -- well, it wasn't easy. There was a part of me in each of those games that was glad to see Marshall lose. The bit of contrition that followed was nice.
I'm not against confident fans. Believe me, I'll walk into Ohio Stadium next year believing with all my heart that Bowling Green can win that game. If we couldn't suspend a little disbelief once in a while, we wouldn't be MAC fans.
But, outside of Toledo, I don't think we rub fans in this conference the wrong way.
On the other hand, when Marshall plays Troy State, Temple, etc., my loyalty is not in doubt. Let the Thunder roll.
I hope we are all friends this August so I can fully embrace the Herd on in nonconference play next year.
2. I want an East school to finally take the Herd down, for obvious reasons. Enough is enough.
3. My perfect season would see the Herd whip on Florida, Florida State and Miami (Florida) nonconference -- then go on to lose most of their conference games to MAC schools also blowing away their nonconference foes. Bowling Green, of course, wins the mythical national championship in that scenario.
It ain't going to happen soon. But there you go.
4. I don't begrudge Marshall television time. The reality is, ESPN is only going to do a couple of games a year (at least until we get a new deal). If the ESPN gods want Marshall, so be it. I'm just glad to see the league on television.
I will admit, when there was talk this summer of putting Marshall on ESPN three times -- for Virginia Tech, for Miami and for Ohio -- that bothered me just a little bit. I looked at the schedule and knew the chances were fair Bowling Green would make the kind of run it did. It would have been nice, I thought, to get a West Division game on there.
But the ESPN gods didn't see it the way I did, and, anyway, I recognize they would have had a hard time picking a game to put on. Toledo? Northern Illinois? Picking a favorite in the West was a mess for a lot of people.
In retrospect, ESPN made wise choices. What a shame it would have been for ESPN to have picked a game other than Miami-Marshall this year.
That's my take.
<!--EDIT|RochesterFalcon|Nov 16 2002, 12:20 AM-->
Quote:In '01, it seemed like most fans seriously believed the Herd would take down Florida.
I did.
Quote:In '02, most seemed to think the Herd would take down Virginia Tech.
I did.
Quote:Believe me, I'll walk into Ohio Stadium next year believing with all my heart that Bowling Green can win that game.
They can.
Hey now, I'd say I'm more on the fence than anything else. Looking at that photo and that photo only, of course anyone would come to the conclusion it was Pass Interference, but as has been stated many times already, that was just a split second snapshot, not a video replay of the entire sequence.
I will reserve judgment on my feelings (as if anyone really cares :D ) until a slow-motion replay becomes available for me to look at, which is not likely.
To be perfectly honest though, in that type of situation, Referees are schooled in making sure they don't affect the outcome of the game. In that instance, maybe the flag should've stayed in the referee's pocket, but who am I to judge..
In the end, all of this amounted to a black eye for the Conference, one that may not heal for quite some time.
I think you miss the point, Thunder. His comment isn't that he's shocked Marshall fans would all see it one way - or that the Miami(OH) fans see it the other. He expected that.
The comment is that almost without exception everyone else (including the media across most of the country - as RF correctly adds) sees it the way Miami(OH) fans do. That group of largely non-partisan (i.e. they don't CARE about Miami(OH) or Marshall) observers also includes the ESPN announcers for the game.
There is no way you can actually believe that there is a nation-wide conspiracy against the Herd winning a game - any game - even this one - maybe especially this game. Only one or two teams demand that type or hatred or envy - and the Herd isn't one of them. Isn't even close.
There isn't even any reason to believe that there's a MAC-wide conspiracy or jealousy of the Herd. What difference does it make to western division teams like CMU, EMU, NIU, or BallSt (who have not won their division since your arrival - so it isn't because of you that any of us has failed to win the MAC) whether Miami(OH) or Marshall wins that game? It makes no difference to us. In fact, for 3 of those 4 - we're not going to the MACC this year either. But we saw what we saw.
Perhaps you can believe that Miami(OH) or Toledo or WMU fans might have a grudge (all having lost the MAC championships to Marshall either in the MAC East race or the MACC) - but that doesn't hold for Ohio, Buffalo, Akron or KentSt fans. To them, you're just another team that's been better than they've lately. And none of them has a chance to win the east - no matter who won that game (ok, Ohio fans think they have a chance - but...you know, well......they're Ohio fans. They believe a lot of stuff that isn't part of this world's reality).
And what about the press from outside of the MAC region (people who don't give a rat's behind about the MACC, the MAC-East race, Miami(OH) or Marshall) - why do they (those who paid any attention at all) come to the same conclusion? There is no amount of "Marshall-envy theory" or "HERD-vision of the world" that can adequately explain the overwhelming consensus of thought on the issue.
You beat my team this year (CMU) - I was there - it was close - came down to a final drive and we lost. You won't find a single post of complaint about it from me (and I don't think I saw one from any CMU fan - anywhere). Well, maybe we complained about our team, our game plan etc - but not the refs, or that the better team didn't win. Why? Because a bad call by a ref didn't decide the game.
This game was clearly not the same. That call was the game.
So Happy Birthday, Merry Christmas etc to Marshall. The record books will say you won - but we know....and I suspect you do too - that Miami(OH) actually won it on the field in 2002.
If Miami would have got a first down and ran out the clock, they would have won. They didn't. They punted. Marshall scored.
Final Score. Marshall 36
Miami 34
That last comment was 100% accurate, my very good compadre :) , HF4L!!
Two things from my perspective:
1) I wanted Marshall to win. Because I like Marshall? No, not in the least. Because I want a shot at Marshall and every other good team in the MAC, and so if NIU wins the West and the MAC, no one can say that we missed any of the best conference teams. Hey, our team is looking forward to playing good teams and not skirting anyone. So bring on EMU, bring on Toledo, then bring on a trip to Huntington....we're gonna play our asses off and try and win this damn thing, and I'll be happiest when I can say that NIU is MAC champ after winning in Oxford & Huntington and beating BG and UT in DeKalb. :saber:
2) NIU lost to Wisconsin in Madison on some questionable calls late in the game. Many here have said we got screwed. I was not one of them. Why? Because I know that it was 3 critical turnovers that made the real difference - had we not had those turnovers, we would have beat UW by double digits. We hurt ourselves, and since the game after the UW game, the loss to WIU, we have been something like +10 or better in turnover margin. Once we began to take care of the ball, we haven't lost. On the road, you're not going to get some calls. You have to be more perfect on the road, especially in big games, if you expect to be a champ.
3) Marshall fans - Nert's right about one thing that you can't deny...there's an awful lot of national vitriol directed at the refs in that game for calls made that are viewed to be in Marshall's favor. If an opinion poll (AP, ESPN/USA Today) is so damn important, then let's take a quick opinion poll to determine whether people believe Miami got screwed on a couple calls. It doesn't change the outcome, but all your "us against the world" mentality doesn't change the fact that many national subjects roll their eyes at this "win". Doesn't mean you aren't good, it just means that many neutral parties believe you didn't completely earn it.
HuksieDan
I have a couple of comments about the officiating. I actually thought the first one, the fourth down call, was the most questionable. After seeing the photo, this changes my mind. Not because I can see the whole play. Far from it. But this one snapshot picture gives evidence to the fact that the official had a legitimate reason to throw the flag. Whether he should have or not, is going to be debated for some time, and the parties will never agree.
Most of the national media who are on the "Miami got screwed" bandwagon, some of whom have never seen a MAC game in their lives, nor written about them, are of the opinon, that officials should not throw a flag in a game deciding situation. They should not effect the outcome of the game.
What most people here don't understand is, Marshall fans have lived through this. I know I have. But it wasn't in football. It was basketball. It was 1988, when Marshall was playing UT-Chatanooga in the semi-finals of the Southern Conference Tournament. Marshall had 27 wins. Chatty was the only team in the conference to beat Marshall that year, and was pretty darn good in their own right.
The game was the fourth straight year that these two teams had clashed in a barnburner for the ages in the Asheville(NC) Civic Center.
Tie game, ten seconds to go, UTC has the ball, the place is going wild.
UTC passes the ball around, and Lance Fulse, their center, gets it at the top of the key. With six seconds left, he tries a shot from inside the arc.
It was summarily dismissed with prejudice.
The ball shot up in the air, and Fulse and Maurice Bryson, 6-7 Marshall forward from Charleston, WV, re-enacted what was essentially a jump ball.
With two seconds left. A whisle. 26 feet from the basket.
Foul on Bryson. Contact with Fulse. 26 feet from the basket.
Fulse makes his free throws. Marshall loses.
Marshall does not get into the NCAA Tourney, as nobody from the Southern has/had ever gotten an at large birth.
So trust me, I know exactly how the Miami people feel. I was there. At both games.
I don't however, subscribe to the theory that an official should not throw the flag in that instance, if he feels the call is warranted.
I don't believe that, in a case like this, that the official is determining the outcome.
If a player commits a penalty during a crucial play, late in the game, it is the player who is effecting the outcome of the game. The official is only doing his job.
Plain and simple. If it is a penalty in the first quarter, it is a penalty on the last play of the game.
That being said, I thought the call could have gone either way. I think the picture goes to show that it definitely could have gone Marshall's way.
I thought the call on the pass to Watts was a good call. And I personally don't care what the national media think. His progress was impeded, when the ball was coming to him. The is an easy call.
Compound it with the previous call that people disagreed with, though, and it is easily understandable as to why people didn't like it.
I feel bad for Miami. Not because they lost. I feel bad because I know exactly how they feel. They feel like they were one second from jumping off the top rope into a jello bath filled with naked women. Then someone reached in, and jerked their guts out, stomped on them right in front of them, and slung them around the room for good measure.
Mark my words, this is the kind of loss that will cause a team to lose their next game for lack of focus.
But I certainly will not apologize for being the benefactor of a couple of perceived bad calls in a key situation. We have been on the short end of those plenty of times.
People want to pile on Marshall because we don't apologize for the calls.
Marshall people are upset because certain posters here want to paint this as though the fix was in.
The fact of the whole matter is, Marshall had a chance to close the deal, and didn't execute on the drive before.
Miami had a chance to close the deal, and leave Marshall with no timeouts, and have a firstdown, and blew it.
Marshall moved down the field with ease to the seven yard line, and got the benefit of a couple of questionable, but not phantom, calls to give them five more yards.
Marshall still had to score with no timeouts.
They did.
So we have to listen to a bunch of hateful posts about conspiracy and cheating and mob mentality.
We can't just enjoy our win. Most people here won't let that happen.
It doesn't matter that the national media rolls their eyes. The national media has nothing to do with who makes the MACC game.
And the national media does not have one iota of decision on bowl games the MAC are in involved with.
EMUHuron Wrote:Just a quick perrusal of the posts on the page one at this moment:
Think Miami(Ohio) got screwed by the refs:
from Miami(Ohio): exCincyKid, devilGrad,
from UCF: UCFClay, Sleepy, KnightTime, Knight01
from WMU: BroncoMD, WMUBroncos98, Whinny
from CMU: CMichFan, nert
from EMU: HuronDave, EMUHuron
from Toledo: Oddball, Rockets1
from BGSU: Flipper, Falconfreak90
Nuetral, undecided, didn't see it, or wavering (in my view anyway):
OHIOFOOTBALL, Rampage, MotownBronco, RochesterFalcon
Think the refs were right:
from non-Marshall schools: MylesKnight
from Marshall: DaHerdisit, GreenMachiner, buck5y5., CarolinaHerdon, Marshall77, HerdSwimming, Murox, Herd-fan-4-Life, Thunder, THUNDERstruck73, OVERHERD, MAKO, RoadWarrior, MUther, Stck4489, GreenBison, Young Herdman, Herdon
from ????: Bluesmitty
Add one more from WMU to the middle list of neutral, undecided etc.
Aw, you can't enjoy your "win"? :crying:
That's too bad. Neither can the team that got screwed out of their win. Some sob story about basketball in your SC days doesn't change that FACT. Neither does that photo that Herd fans seem to think vindicates the officials for their obscenely bad calls.
Miami got raped, and the rest of the conference witnessed it, as did the rest of the country. It's why hardly anyone but Herd fans disputes it, and why all news articles that don't originate from Herdville say that the calls were bad. Whether or not Miami got hosed isn't even at issue.
I think that Miami got screwed. But, it won't change the outcome.
Marshall still wins.
end of story.
life goes on
the sun will rise
etc, etc....
Like a basketball game 10 years ago means jack freakin' sh!t towards a football game right now. Come on, it makes NO difference whatsoever. You can claim to "feel" for someone because of your experiences, but in the end it means absolutely nothing.
A very thoughtful post, Herd Swimming. As I privately corresponded with one of my friends who is a Herd grad I don't think the younger fans here can necessarily understand the deep frustration long-time Miami fans have in terms of the numerous second place finishes we've had since our last title in 86. The loss was the most gut-wrenching I have EVER experienced in the 25 years I've been following the RedHawks, and to lose a game on a questionable call like that was brutal (I will back off my initial emotional comments that it was the worst call ever, but I still think it's a very bad call based on the tape and the game situation, and almost ALL impartial observers seem to agree on that.)
I have avoided the fray about what happened after the game for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that I didn't see it as I turned off the game in agony as soon as Hill scored. Secondly, while never condoing Wauford's actions I know I how I felt after that game, and it would've taken an awful lt of self control if some __hole was "in my face" taunting me after such a brutal outcome. Finally, I have faith in my school that we will "do the right thing" in the end as we have before when questionable activities were taken by our Coaches and players.
I think Miami fans on these boards are trying to "move on", but it's difficult, partly because posters like Marshall 77 can't see to stay off our boards in continually taunting us about the incident and outcome of the game. The fun of college football this season is gone for me, as is most of my interest level. It may come back by bowl season, but I guess I kind of doubt it. I also wouldn't be surprised if our team cannot re-group after this crushing loss to Marshall, and UCF may very well "blow us out" next week, as we have nothing but pride to play for, as another promising season has gone by the boards in a last minute loss to Marshall.
<!--EDIT|exCincy Kid|Nov 17 2002, 03:03 PM-->
eCK....thank you for stating all of our feelings from the board
Ahhhhh yes, "the call".
It was a close call indeed. But in my opinion it was pass interference.
Miami is a good team and in my opinion should have beaten the HERD without Leftwich.
And I'm not talking about the last play.
Miami should have never been in that situation. The game should have been over when Miiami's offense had the lead and the ball with 2 minutes left.
Instead, they get stopped by the HERD DEFENSE and go 3 and out punting away to the HERD and letting Stan Hill be the hero instead of the goat.
So in my opinion, Miami fans need to realize that their team lost the game.
All the Redhawks had to do was get a first down and run out the clock. They didn't get the job done. Right there is where the Miami Redhawks lost the game.
Come on Redhawk fans, you knew what you were feeling when your team failed to run out the clock and punted to MARSHALL. I guarantee that you guys were thinking to yourselves, "oh $hit, here comes the HERD".
Honestly, had the HERD lost the same way, my first post on here would be to say "good game" and post about MUg should have never put themselves in that kind of position when all they had to do was get a first down and run out the clock. I would actually be mad at our coaching staff for not calling good plays on that last offensive series.
But anyways..........all Miami has to do is beat UCF and they should still go to a bowl game. JMO
As far as the EAST Title, Next year will be Miami's best shot but again, Marshall will be in your way. Also, UCF will be a very good team too. I think OU is starting to play for their coach too. Kent St will not be easy. The EAST 2003 will be very tough.
Poor, poor Oddball is still suffering. So sad.
Any objective, cursory look at The Photo shows both players with a handful of the opponent jersey and the ball closest to the redhawk defender. But no conclusion as to who should be called for an infraction can be drawn.
For the benefit of the large % of herd fans that validate "stupid cow," no one doubts that you won the game. That's the reality. The other reality is that you refuse to admit that there's a great chance that you benefitted (is that spelled right?) from some questionable officiating. It's the failure to admit the obviously questionable officiating that makes most of us think you are an ass.