CSNbbs

imradioboy Wrote:It's like they figured dropping the "State" from the name would make people forget the May 4, 1970 shootings.

Memphis State, Troy State and Edinboro State all dropped the 'State' off their names. Many community colleges use State and its an image thing (Penn State & Michgan State excluded).

...Oklahoma State, Iowa State, Arizona State, Washington State, Oregon State...
:wave:

axeme Wrote:...Oklahoma State, Iowa State, Arizona State, Washington State, Oregon State...
:wave:

I know there are exceptions I was just pointing out the idiotic reason behind the change.

draak ijveraar Wrote:

imradioboy Wrote:It's like they figured dropping the "State" from the name would make people forget the May 4, 1970 shootings.

Memphis State, Troy State and Edinboro State all dropped the 'State' off their names. Many community colleges use State and its an image thing (Penn State & Michgan State excluded).

Ex-members of the board of trustees have admitted that the drop of "state" was an effort to disassociate the University from the shootings. The University tried many ways to forget about the shootings from the building a gym annex (that's now pretty useless) over part of the site, the 20 years it took to build a massively scaled back memorial, and actually allowing people to park over the spots where the students fell at the site.

Kent is a state school, Kent University of the University of Kent wouldn't really make sense. The city of Kent is not big enough for it to be filled with local commuter students. It's designed to draw from all over the state even if Cuyahoga County residents dominate. When I think of KSU, I think of typical midwestern state univesity. The "State" belongs.

The sad part about the whole rush to drop the name "Hurons" at EMU is that now very few people (outside the immediate area) will ever know that "Huron" ever referred to more than just a Lake.

As a mascot - it was obvious that the Hurons were a people - and all the EMU Huron images I've ever seen have been pretty mundane - not like the grinning fool "Chief Wahoo".

But I do agree - once they decided to change it - it should have been changed to something unique like "Emus".

As far as the term "Irish" goes - the part that most of those who do mind actually object to is the term "Fighting". That - and the ridiculous bearded green imp on the sidelines. To the Irish - a leprechaun is not far removed from a devil. It would be like making an electric motor the symbol for the Amish - or a red-suited serpent the symbol for Christians. As an Irishman who is not a Notre Dame fan - I don't actually care what they do -- but at least I know the Leprechaun is not a symbol of Irish national pride - quite the opposite.

The part that always escaped me though is that a school named after a famous French landmark --- has teams that are somehow nicknamed the "Irish"?

Who makes these decisions?

I suggest the Notre Dame Soft Gooey Cheeses.

Ahhhhhhhhh, but then we have the Toledo Rockets.....................We should get sponsorship from a certain latex-based industry.

nert Wrote:It would be like making an electric motor the symbol for the Amish

Hmmmmmm.....I like the ring of the Notre Dame Ox-Plowing Amish.

FunkmasterFlash Wrote:

Schadenfreude Wrote:And if the Cleveland MLB team drops "Indians" for something cooler (like "Spiders"), I'll smile. I'd be very happy about that.

I'd be really happy if they'd just drop Cheif Wahoo. That logo has got to be the most racist thing in sports.

Yeah, they should retire Chief Wahoo and just become the "Cleveland Tribe". They already use that nickname anyway and it is generic enough to not offend.

Fortunately, CMU has a very strong relationship with the Saginaw/Chippewa tribe, which is a big supporter of CMU athletics. CMU's efforts to educate the community include classes on Ojibwa (native language) and hosting the annual PowWow (not sure this is still on-campus?), which features the Chippewa Tribe doing authentic dances and selling handmade crafts, among other things. There has been on-and-off-again, a small but vocal band of mostly-white folks on campus who try the PC argument, but as long as CMU has the support of the tribal council, I foresee no change.

Schadenfreude Wrote:

DrTorch Wrote:

DexterEagle Wrote:I still find it interesting that the Irish community doesn't march on South Bend and the Greeks leave East Lansing unmolested but find a band of American Indians and they'll ride this issue into political power every time.

...

I agree w/ your point about ND and MSU. Don't forget U$C and Idaho.

These analogies fall far short.

America never did anything to the Irish that remotely compares to what it did to American Indians.

Yes, the Irish were once discriminated against in this country. But it wasn't anything like what America did to American Indians. It was very nearly genocidal.

Further, although we hate to admit it, there is a reason so many vast numbers of American sports teams have names that evoke American Indians. It's because our fathers and grandfathers and greatgrandfathers believed American Indians were wild-eyed savage killers -- and nothing more.

Before high schools, colleges and universities began dropping their Indian-related nicknames, "Indians" was one of the top ten most common nicknames for sports teams in America -- along with tigers, lions, bears, eagles, etc.

Animals that kill.

I agree with Dexter, mostly. I liked "Hurons." I grew up near the Huron River, and I liked the way it evoked a sense of place. I think it could have been saved. Also, I admire Central Michigan for the work it has done in outreach to the Saginaw Chippewa and education of its own community.

But, honestly, "Redskins" absolutely had to go at Miami -- and I think (and hope) that nickname's days are numbered in Washington.

And if the Cleveland MLB team drops "Indians" for something cooler (like "Spiders"), I'll smile. I'd be very happy about that.

Those American Indian groups that participate in these assaults on college mascots (and not all or even most use this tactic) are just attempting to parlay historical victimization into political power.

Fortunately they have only been effective with colleges. Their lack of success with professional sports teams indicates how weak they are when confronted with wealthy, well-organized, and professionally lawyered organizations. They will be singing "Hail to the Redskins" in Washington for decades to come.

BTW, the Redskins were founded in Boston and the nickname refers to the participants of the Boston Tea Party who disguised themselves as Indians. In my many years of following the 'Skins I have never seen a disrespectful logo used to identify the team.

CMichFan Wrote:Fortunately, CMU has a very strong relationship with the Saginaw/Chippewa tribe, which is a big supporter of CMU athletics. CMU's efforts to educate the community include classes on Ojibwa (native language)

That's huge. Just huge.

So many American Indian nations are losing their languages, and they often have great trouble getting local school systems or what not to help them out.

That's great.

HuronDave Wrote:Sometimes this topic is very difficult for me to even delve into after the way the rush to PC Prez at EMU and his band of lackeys (aka Board of Regents) destroyed a great tradition in abandoning the Huron nickname.

Most know that there was no great outcry from the Native American community to change the name and most supported keeping it. It was just a bunch of guilt-ridden white folks making themselves feel better and giving themselves a heavy handed pat on the back for being seen as oh so sensitve.

Anyway, it was bad enough that we abandoned our Huron tradition but then we had to add to the travesty by choosing a humdrum name like Eagles. I thought, since it was a done deal, we should have at least been creative and called ourselves the Emus!

Like others, I am glad to see CMU did not make the change when the PC crowd came gunning for them. Geez, that was tough...I hate saying anything nice about that school up north.

I am a graduate of EMU and it was Hurons when I went there. I saw no reason to change, but know that it was railroaded by the President. I happen to be 1/8 indian blood myself, so it's not like I am without knowledge of the subject. I wrote a letter to the school and expressed my displeasure and I pointed out one significant fact. There are no full blood Hurons alive today. The last one died in the 1920's so they are extinct as a tribe. Who spoke for them, not Hurons, or course.

That having been said, however, I fully expect all the remaining schools with Indian mascots to capitulate some time or another. No one wants to be the last one standing, except of course, George Custer. I think it is primarily motived by current Indians just trying to get back at the treatment they received from the white establishment back in the 1800's.

Really though, it ain't no big deal. The sun should rise and fall again tomorrow.



:chair:

ZippyRulz Wrote:

FunkmasterFlash Wrote:

Schadenfreude Wrote:And if the Cleveland MLB team drops "Indians" for something cooler (like "Spiders"), I'll smile. I'd be very happy about that.

I'd be really happy if they'd just drop Cheif Wahoo. That logo has got to be the most racist thing in sports.

Yeah, they should retire Chief Wahoo and just become the "Cleveland Tribe". They already use that nickname anyway and it is generic enough to not offend.

I been saying the same thing for a while now. The fans really should start a campaign for "The Tribe". Because of my reading about how the Native Americans feel about the Indian epithet, I only refer to them as the Tribe myself. I also stopped wearing gear with the Chief on it several years ago. Frankly, it's digusting that this hasn't stopped. And that f-ball team in Washington is even worse...

DexterEagle Wrote:

Schadenfreude Wrote:But, honestly, "Redskins" absolutely had to go at Miami -- and I think (and hope) that nickname's days are numbered in Washington.

And if the Cleveland MLB team drops "Indians" for something cooler (like "Spiders"), I'll smile. I'd be very happy about that.

Those American Indian groups that participate in these assaults on college mascots (and not all or even most use this tactic) are just attempting to parlay historical victimization into political power.

Fortunately they have only been effective with colleges.

Exactly. It's not only stupid...it's childish. It is patronizing and racist to go to these groups of people and stir them up and tell them they are being "exploited" and "offended". The arrogance of the liberal...saving people who "can't save themselves".

I agree that terms like 'Redskin' or Redman or Orangeman, are probably offensive to a reasonable person. So fine, drop them. But, don't lose the tradition of various tribes.

And the effect is not just colleges. Government schools are also affected. Ask Devil "asshat" Grad about Montgomery County, MD. Even the term 'Warriors' was forbidden.

Gatorama Wrote:There are no full blood Hurons alive today. The last one died in the 1920's so they are extinct as a tribe. Who spoke for them, not Hurons, or course.

My first phone call would have been to one of these nations here:

<a href='http://www.wyandot.org/oklahoma/' target='_blank'>http://www.wyandot.org/oklahoma/</a>

As you can see, there is a Huron Wendat of Wendake, which I believe is in Quebec. The head of this band in 1999 was Chief Willie Piccard, as you can see from the confederation agreement.

This appears to be a specific Web site set up by the Huron Wendat of Wendake:

<a href='http://www.wendake.com/' target='_blank'>http://www.wendake.com/</a>

My impression is that the Huron connection to southeast Michigan is actually pretty weak. But I'm no expert.

The French used to call the area east of Georgian Bay (in Lake Huron) Huronia. Maybe they also controlled southeastern Michigan. I don't know. But I do know the area east of Georgian Bay was the Huron heartland.

But smallpox ripped apart the Hurons for a generation. Then the Iroquois, of upstate New York, finally finished off for good in 1649.

Thereafter, it seems the Hurons who escaped death essentially merged with the Wyandot people.

In the early to mid 1700s, the Wyandot lived near Detroit at the invitation of French settlers, and I believe a small reservation persisted in southern Brownstown Township (somewhere near what is now Trenton, south of Wyandotte, near the mouth of the Huron River) until the early 1800s.

The Wyandot also held what is now Wyandot County, Ohio (the county seat is now Upper Sandusky) until about 1830 or so. The Wyandot were eventually persuaded (cajoled, forced, who knows?) to leave Ohio in the 1830s. Some ended up in Kansas. Others ended up in Oklahoma.

It strikes me that a better nickname for Eastern Michigan University sports all along might have been "Wyandots."

It also strikes me that the various Wyandot bands, including the Huron Wendat of Wendake, would have been the people to contact when considering whether or not "Hurons" was a good nickname for Eastern Michigan University.

But I'm no expert.

DrTorch Wrote:I agree that terms like 'Redskin' or Redman or Orangeman, are probably offensive to a reasonable person.

"Orangemen" refered to a 18th century secret Protestant society in Northern Ireland, "the Order of the Orange," named after William of Orange.

Syracuse University did have an issue along these lines, however.

Syracuse's equivalent of Freddy or Frieda Falcon was long the "Saltine Warrior," an Indian supposedly named "Big Chief Bill Orange," who, according to a 1931 "report" in the Syracuse University student newspaper, was an 16th Onondagan chief unearthed during construction for a new women's gymnasium.

(I think that tells us all we need to know about the spirit in which many of America's Indian sports nicknames and logos were born.)

Anyway, for decades, a Syracuse fraternity had one of its members dressed up as the "Saltine Warrior" running around sporting events like a lunatic. The university finally put a stop to it in the late 1970s after American Indian students protested.

Onondagan Chief Oren Lyons, a 1958 Syracuse alumnus and former SU lacrosse star, put it this way in 1976: It's "all in the presentation...The thing that offended me when I was there was that guy running around like a nut. That's derogatory."

<a href='http://www.syr.edu/aboutsu/memorabilia/mascot.html' target='_blank'>http://www.syr.edu/aboutsu/memorabilia/mascot.html</a>

Schadenfreude Wrote:(I think that tells us all we need to know about the spirit in which many of America's Indian sports nicknames and logos were born.)

Yes, it was no different than the same spirit that gave us the 3', green clad ND leprachaun, the portly Boston Celtic, Sparty, the "Marvin the Martian" rip-off, etc.

The point you seem to miss is that many mascots share the same spirit as the ones for Native Americans. They're either chosen for fierce warriors (Trojans, Spartans, Vandals, Vikings) or made comedic, probably due to some wannabe journalist like at Syracuse.

The critical point is, no Norwegians protest outside of the Metrodome...no Turks write angry letters to U$C...no disgruntled Greeks peitition Mich State's student senate.

When the guilt-ridden white folks decide to change the name out of 'sympathy' for Native Americans, it shows where the real hubris and condescending and racist beliefs lie.

BTW, 'Spiders' is a stupid name. 'Cobras', 'Cannons'...much better.

When did Miami U make the change from Redskins to RedHawks?

I was wondering if they copied a particular high school in the Chicagoland area (Naperville Central) that made the very same switch in the early 90's.

The use of the term "Indians" always strikes me as idiotic, since I have a lot of friends from India. Imagine if a school used the nickname Indians and had a Hindu guru as a mascot!