Before the D1 D1-AA split, were all colleges division one? Also have there always been a division two and three? I mean, at some point most schools were small, and football was brand new, so when did the "Big" schools (BCS type schools) split from the smaller D1, 2 and 3 schools?
The NCAA started in 1906 as one division. In 1973 the NCAA split into 3 divisions for all sports: DI, DII, and DIII. In 1978 the NCAA split DI college football into DI-A and DI-AA.
rocketfootball Wrote:The NCAA started in 1906 as one division. In 1973 the NCAA split into 3 divisions for all sports: DI, DII, and DIII. In 1978 the NCAA split DI college football into DI-A and DI-AA.
Close, but not quite.
Before the I/II/III split in '73, NCAA members were considered either "university division" (which I think was also known as "major college") or "college division."
Most -- if not all -- of the MAC was college division until 1962 or so (I believe '61 was BGSU's last year at that level).
I believe we can think of college division as the equivalent of today's Division II. (I assume we were allowed to pass out scholarships back then).
Scholarships were given out by most MAC schools even when they were listed as "college division" ( most sports columns refered to major & small college ) .Other colleges gave grants in aid to athletes. This created a playing field that was not level and schools sought out others giving similar aid to play. This led to divisions and eventually the I-A/I-AA split. Scholarships by Div. ( I-a 85 ; I-AA 63 ; II 45; III grants in aid ,no scholarships )
Thanks. That's a useful reminder for folks.
The only thing I would add is that there is a subset of schools that maintain Division I status (I-AA in football) while offering only grants-in-aid. That's basically the Patriot League and the Ivies. But you can ask our FU friend or any UB fan about Colgate.
The MAAC schools used to fall into this category for football as well -- though they offered schollies in other sports, notably basketball and hockey. (People sometimes refer to this group somewhat inexactly as "I-AAA.") I get the impression that, in recent years, however, some of those schools have started spending more on football. From reading the Post, one gets the sense that Georgetown, for example, is starting to take football somewhat seriously.
Dayton fits that profile. I-AAA is a reference to I-A sports & I-AA ( no scholarships, grants in aid ) FB. Another subset !!
Forgot about them. Just goes to show you how long I've lived out of state.
Priests at Georgetown are not going to get carried away with FB. They are the same as before except they fit I-AA non-scholarship (I-AAA). No increase to speak of in FB expenses.
Schadenfreude Wrote:rocketfootball Wrote:The NCAA started in 1906 as one division. In 1973 the NCAA split into 3 divisions for all sports: DI, DII, and DIII. In 1978 the NCAA split DI college football into DI-A and DI-AA.
Close, but not quite.
Before the I/II/III split in '73, NCAA members were considered either "university division" (which I think was also known as "major college") or "college division."
Most -- if not all -- of the MAC was college division until 1962 or so (I believe '61 was BGSU's last year at that level).
I believe we can think of college division as the equivalent of today's Division II. (I assume we were allowed to pass out scholarships back then).
According to what I have read it all started in 1906 and was called Intercollegiate Athletic Association of the United States. In 1910 it changed its name to National Collegiate Athletic Association.
The Major and Small College classifications were not imposed by the NCAA. The first split by the NCAA was the 3 divisions in 1973.
paladin1aa Wrote:Dayton fits that profile. I-AAA is a reference to I-A sports & I-AA ( no scholarships, grants in aid ) FB. Another subset !!
No. I-AAA schools are like Cleveland State or Wright State. Division I, but not football at all.
Dayton is I-AA, but just not taking the football very seriously. That seems to be the point of the Pioneer League: To be with like-minded schools that don't want to spend money on football scholarships, but care deeply about basketball.
rocketfootball Wrote:The Major and Small College classifications were not imposed by the NCAA. The first split by the NCAA was the 3 divisions in 1973.
You may be right in that the major and small college classifications were not imposed by the NCAA. It may have been a little less formal.
Anyone here know what the MAC might have done to be considered major college? Was it just the sports writers deciding it was so? That seems *too* informal, but I think RocketFootball is on to something here (as he often is).
Schadenfreude Wrote:rocketfootball Wrote:The Major and Small College classifications were not imposed by the NCAA. The first split by the NCAA was the 3 divisions in 1973.
You may be right in that the major and small college classifications were not imposed by the NCAA. It may have been a little less formal.
Anyone here know what the MAC might have done to be considered major college? Was it just the sports writers deciding it was so? That seems *too* informal, but I think RocketFootball is on to something here (as he often is).
I'm also curious about what the scholarship limitations were back then. Were they self-imposed? (Didn't Pitt's championship c. 1976 start to change this?) And did the major and small college designations differ in this regard?
I disagree that Dayton takes its football seriously. The Flyers have a tradition, including a Div III national championship. But, they are stuck w/ the requirement of fielding a Div I team, but won't pony up the scholarhips. I'm not sure that means they aren't serious...just pragmatic.
DrTorch Wrote:I disagree that Dayton takes its football seriously. The Flyers have a tradition, including a Div III national championship. But, they are stuck w/ the requirement of fielding a Div I team, but won't pony up the scholarhips. I'm not sure that means they aren't serious...just pragmatic.
Fair enough.
My sense has always been that the University Division/College Division split was a lot less formal, or at least a lot less meaningful than the I/II/III split with a lot more cross over between levels. Now the structures all appear more rigid.
I'm still not clear whether the '63 NIU team was a College Division team or an NAIA team, as I've heard both.
From listening to my dad talk about college sports in those days, I suspect the NAIA/NCAA relationship was more fluid as well.
What I wouldn't give for a 30 minute sports history documentary running down how things were...
In 1968, schools had to choose whether to play in the University Division or the College Division. This was mandated by the NCAA. 223 selected University, 386 selected College. In 1969, College Division Championships began.
The "major college" tag is a separate issue and a little more tricky. Only about 200 schools in history are listed as EVER having played at the major college level.
The NCAA's power to organize was just kicking in by the late 1930s and the majority of the football powers who are now in the BCS conferences of today were given some sort of distinction of "major" from the years 1937-40. World War II made mincemeat of this for awhile, so the vast majority of today's power players including the entire Big 10, and most of the SEC, Pac-10 and Big 12 are listed as "major college" from 1937-40, 46-present. The Ivy League schools too, were considered major college, right up until 1981 when they dropped to I-AA. Major college is now synonymous with Division 1-A.
Miami and Ohio U. are the only MAC schools to be considered major for any period of time prior to the early 1960s. Miami, from 48-49, Ohio just in 1948.
Interesting notes: The University of Tampa played at the major college level from 1973-74, as if they just existed to spoil Toledo's winning streak.
The Charter Members of what became the NCAA who still play I-A today? Army, Colorado, Minnesota, Nebraska, Vandy, Missouri, UNC, Rutgers, Syracuse and our own Miami University.
Sources: ncaa.org History section and official NCAA records book.
Dog Tracks ---- Alot of people don't understand NAIA/NCAA. NAIA used to have a big school (D-I) & small school (D-II ) divisions. d-II was equal to NCAA D-III. The D-I was comparable to NCAA D-II and some thought I-AA. D-I gave scholarships (limited ) & D-II gave grants in aid. NAIA D-II played NCAA D-III schools. Difference is NAIA could leave campus to recruit. NCAA D-III are forbidden to leave campus to recruit. Economics caught up with NAIA and now there is one division.
DogTracks Wrote:I'm still not clear whether the '63 NIU team was a College Division team or an NAIA team, as I've heard both.
I offered up bad info - the '63 NIU team was national champ of the NCAA College Division, and appears to have been in the IIAC conference (whatever that was!). A little before my time! :D
Somebody help me out here. What's the difference between a scholarship and a grant-in-aid?
HuskieDan Wrote:I offered up bad info - the '63 NIU team was national champ of the NCAA College Division, and appears to have been in the IIAC conference (whatever that was!). A little before my time! :D
Bowling Green won the college division mythical national championship in 1959, and I believe Ohio won it in '60.
The IIAC was the "Interstate Intercollegiate Athletic Conference."
Northern Illinois played there from 1950 to 1965, then left to play as an independent. NIU moved up to major college in 1969 and began transitioning into the MAC in 1973.
The IIAC also included Eastern Michigan (1950-61) and Central Michigan (1950-69). I believe it also included some Illinois directionals -- but not Ball State, which played in something called the "Heartland Athletic Conference" before finding its way to the MAC. I have no idea who else was in that league, but I'll bet one member was Indiana State.
Scholarships are full rides ( room,board,tuition ) . Grants in aid are based on your ability to pay. After financial disclosure forms are filled out you may get partial to nearly full coverage of expenses. If you are poor, nearly all,if you are wealthy not much at all. Those schools also have outrageous costs involved vs a state school.Tuition is out of sight plus room & board.