I think Schadenfredue has it "nailed". The MAC will be developing a contingency plan just as soon as the NCAA reveals its final wording of the newly proposed IA attendance rules. If they appear to be stringent (i.e. as currently proposed) with only one year's restricted membership and then the "boot" if you don't achieve the 15K the second year, the MAC will have to realistically plan for losing a team or two, and the Temple and MTSU (along with WKU for the future) would make a lotta sense, especially if the SunBelt implodes as a domino effect to C-USA poaching UTEP.
Of course, as many have already pointed out, even though MTSU has a very nice stadium, their football attendance has been weak as well although I think they'd get a bump from joining the MAC. Temple has few options, and I expect them to join the MAC (football only) if the conference wants them.
Lastly, before any of you "jump me" for suggesting this scenario, I'd point out that I'm not necessarily hoping for this outcome, but think that the league must be realistic with sucession planning should the new attendance rules go into effect. Of course, another response could be that we accept the loss of the MACC (due to not having 12 football-playing schools) and go back to a leaner, albeit arguably stronger, MAC football conference. Therein lies the key decision for Chryst and Presidents Council.
I do not believe that the MAC will consider a one sport member again. It is all or nothing. UCF was brought in as an experiment and the intend to consider all sports. It did not work and we will not try again.
Gentlemen, it's going to be a very interesting month or two on the horizon. If this realigment scenario shakes out like many now believe it will, then MTSU and WKU could very well be joining the MAC.
Is it possible for those two schools to deliver the Music City Bowl to the MAC?
GFlash68 Wrote:I do not believe that the MAC will consider a one sport member again. It is all or nothing. UCF was brought in as an experiment and the intend to consider all sports. It did not work and we will not try again.
I disagree if we lost any school(s) to I-AA. Let's take Kent State just for the sake of explaining this. Kent doesn't make attendance requirements and are forced to I-AA in football. They could remain in the MAC for all sports outside of football. Then a school like Temple could join for just football to replace the football loss.
That is where I see the MAC taking a school for just 1 sport.
Taking WKU with the agreement that football will be I-A within 4 or 5 years could also happen, IMO.
I think UCF didn't work out more because of their geographic location. Don't forget, the MAC did offer them an all sports invite right before the accepted C-USA's offer.
BeatWestern Wrote:Is it possible for those two schools to deliver the Music City Bowl to the MAC?
Doubtful.
Vanderbilt University is located in Nashville and the University of Tennessee has more prominence in Nashville than even Vandy or Middle Tennessee.
The Music City Bowl has ties with the Southeastern Conference and the Big 10 Conference. I don't think that bowl game would ever consider tying itself with a league it didn't think would allow the bowl to be a sell-out. It's a selfish "Power Six" bowl game just like over half the other bowl games out there.
Thinking about Vandy though, it's kind of funny. Here in recent years Vandy has lost to Western Michigan, Miami of Ohio, and Middle Tennessee twice. I suppose we do have something in common with some MAC schools.
MAC teams-->
<--Vandy
BlueRaiderPride Wrote:BeatWestern Wrote:Is it possible for those two schools to deliver the Music City Bowl to the MAC?
Doubtful.
The Music City Bowl has ties with the Southeastern Conference and the Big 10 Conference. I don't think that bowl game would ever consider tying itself with a league it didn't think would allow the bowl to be a sell-out. It's a selfish "Power Six" bowl game just like over half the other bowl games out there.
While I think the Music City Bowl would always want to keep the SEC tie-in...what's to say that they wouldn't drop the Big 10 if they thought that the MAC could bring the people. Most of the MAC schools are close enough to Nashville that a good sized fan turn-out should be possible. Of course, what would the MCB get...the MAC #3? I don't know if they'd make the switch for the the MAC's #3 team or not. As it stands now, the agreement with the Big 10 runs through the 2005 bowl season. That agreement has some flexibility built-in as to what team will play in the MCB. This kind of makes sure that it won't be the same team every year. I think, in general, that the MCB organizers are happy pairing middle of the pack SEC and Big 10 teams. Also, I hate to say this, but I'm not sure how whether the SEC would want the MCB to bring in the MAC. The MAC teams are good enough that they could beat the SEC teams, and we know what a serious ego blow that would be for the SEC. Think they'd want to take a chance on that happening.
As for me, personally I think the MAC would be a good tie-in, but my opinion isn't really worth a hill of beans when it comes the bowl organizers. As for KK knocking, WKU and MTSU...well, the MAC could do a lot worse. Both schools are growing schools in the middle of an area the country that is continuing to grow at a rather rapid pace. While I can't speak for MTSU's programs, I do know that Western has programs that I would put up against any others in the nation...including top-notch programs in education and journalism. WKU's overall journalism program is one of the best (if not the best in the country) which WKU has consistenly proven in head-to-head competition with the likes of Northwestern, North Carolina, Florida, etc. Also, as a mark of the overall excellence of WKU academics, why don't you check out WKU's forensics program. For the past several years, they have been one of the best forensics programs in the country. They have won numerous national and INTERNATIONAL debate titles.
As far as doctoral programs go, Diddle Bum hit the nail on the head. WKU not offerring any is more about KY state politics than it is about anything else. UK and UL of are the only two "authorized" schools in the state who can have doctoral programs. All of the other state schools have basically been barred. At best, doctoral programs can only be offered in "conjunction" with these programs. Most of the state universitites have tried to get around this issue, but so far none of them have been able to do so. This may or not be the best thing for the universities and the state of Kentucky, but that is the way things are set up. Until that changes you won't see WKU offerring doctoral programs...it's as simple as that. :(
As for the beef some people have with "directional schools," they should just get over it. Of course, I guess WKU could change it's name to the University of Bowling Green, but wouldn't that really complicate things around the country?
:rofl:
topper1974 Wrote:WKU's overall journalism program is one of the best (if not the best in the country) which WKU has consistenly proven in head-to-head competition with the likes of Northwestern, North Carolina, Florida, etc.
Uh, oh.
Kit-Kat is going to be maaaaaaaaaaaad.
I don't mean to advertise my school on a MAC forum, but just for your benefit Topper, Middle Tennessee's school of the Mass Communications is one of the Top 5 in the nation and it's school of Recording Industry ranks tied for first with California-Berkeley every year.
Middle Tennessee also has nationally ranked programs in Business and Aerospace, Nursing, Agriculture and Equestrian, Journalism, and Criminal Justice.
Middle Tennessee is the second largest university in Tennessee and because it is the fastest growing university it is expected to surpass the University of Tennessee by 2007 in total enrollment. Middle Tennessee already surpassed UTK in total undergraduate enrollment making MTSU the university with the largest enrollment of undergrads in the state.
Schadenfreude Wrote:Kit-Cat Wrote:Diddle Bum Wrote:WKU will go 1-A as soon as we have a SECURE conference that is PROFITABLE for us to make the jump. WKU and MAC have had discussions, where things stand I don't know. WKU just needs to flip the switch.
WKU and MTSU going to the MAC would be a dream come true for BOTH schools.
My personal opinion says Diddle Bum should be thrown out on his rear. How many more directionals does the MAC need? WKU is a 6 hour drive from the nearest MAC school and MTSU even further. Not worth it.
Crack is back.
I'm with Diddle here.
How about this for a plan:
1. Bring in Middle Tennessee State in all sports, Western Kentucky in all sports but football, and Temple for football only. That makes for an even 14, giving us some margin for error if a couple teams don't stay I-A.
2. Put Western Kentucky on a plan to move to I-A. When WKU is ready to play football in the MAC, maybe they can step in to replace another current member who leaves for I-AA.
3. Keep an eye out east for other expansion opportunities, such as Army, Navy, Massachusetts or (under the right circumstances) Youngstown State, with an eye toward trying to keep twelve football members.
There is a tendacy on this board to give a warm reception to any school that would be possibly interested in the MAC, like (MTSU/WKU) to the point where in clouds constructive thinking.
Looking at Schadenfreude's WTF MAC plan:
1.Add MTSU, and WKU for 14
2.Then add YSU, UMass, Army and Navy for 18
What kind of direction is this? The point in expanding is to add QUALITY not quanity. The MAC already has enough quanity to stage a championship game in Football. The only program availible to the MAC that is going to add something to the valuable to the league is Temple to enhance the TV deal. Army and Navy won't be interested in joining the MAC, just not a high enough profile league for them. Army had a miserable time in CUSA before it DOAed.....I'm sure they can't wait to play a MAC schedule.
Compare with KC's MAC Quality plan:
1.Add Temple FB only if/when a few MAC schools drop to 1-AA.
2.Maybe 5 years down the road, position the MAC to a point where they can take Temple in for all-sports. And bring with them 1-3 travel partners from the East Coast like UMass, Delaware, and maybe SUNY-Albany with the option of those schools upgrading to I-A in Football if possible.
This way the MAC has a strong presence on the East Coast that would add a lot of value to the MAC's TV packages in Football and Basketball. An basketball conference stretching from the East to Midwest has great potential, a top 10 conference with 2-3 teams in the NCAA's and the NIT every year.
MAC West
1.Ball St
2.Central Michigan
3.Eastern
4.WMU
5.Northern Illinios
6.Bowling Green
7.MiamiO
8.Toledo
MAC East
1.KentSt
2.Temple
3.Ohio
4.Delaware
5.UMass
6.Albany
7.Akron
8.Buffalo
16 is big for a leauge but its kind of like a second tier version of the new Big East. Probably just 9 schools for Football for round robin play with 16 for basketball.
I like it.
Mentioning "Albany" and "quality" in the same post is very innovative of you, Kit-Kat. You may be the first to put those two ideas together.
More importantly, with this...
Quote:2.Then add YSU, UMass, Army and Navy for 18
...you are putting words in my mouth.
An 18-member conference would be ludicrious. I am not advocating that.
But, if these attendance rules aren't tweaked, I do advocate expanding now, to 14 or 15, with the best candidates available.
And I suggest continuing to look around for opportunities because I'm not convinced -- as the rules are presently written -- that 15 would be enough to save our championship game.
(Here eCK and I part company, a bit).
Given a choice between expanding South or East, I'd choose the East. In fact, my ideal plan would be to bring in Temple, Army, Navy, Delaware and perhaps Massachusetts as a group, all football only. I wouldn't object to putting Albany in the mix, should the Great Danes wish to play I-A football and should Delaware or UMass not be interested. We'd bring in far more televisions sets and far more football tradition expanding in the East than we would the South.
The problem is that neither Army nor Navy seem interested in joining a conference right now AND Delaware seems happy as one of the few moneymaking Division I-AA programs AND Massachusetts' notions of going I-A are murky at best AND I've never heard a word to suggest Albany has any interest in I-A (though the market is nice). The Great Danes are struggling in I-AA.
I don't know the right answer. To me, it comes down to the chances that Army and Navy can one day be persuaded to join our league. If there is a chance, then maybe there is a reason to hold off on expansion, even if it means losing our championship game.
But the clock is ticking. I don't see a whole lot of room for optimism when it comes to bringing in Army and Navy any time soon. They've certainly had offers before -- from the MAC and from other leagues.
The worst possible scenario would be for us to find ourselves shrinking past the point of viability because we didn't pounce on expansion candidates when the time was right.
I think Western Kentucky would be a fine addition to the MAC. Seriously, read up on everything they've done on the basketball court. If they want to try I-A, and they want to do it with us, I think they'd be a nice long term fit here.
Actually, Scha, you and I do not "part company" on your reasoning and rationale. Army, Navy, Temple and Delaware would indeed be stronger entries than the southern options. The problem is (to me) that I don't expect Army, Navy and Delaware to be interested, whereas WKU and MTSU may be even approaching the MAC about entry if the SunBelt looks to be imploding due to WAC poaching, (due to C-USA poaching), due to TCU leaving C-USA.
And although I guess I'm not completely convinced we should just start adding programs to save the MACC (vs. competing with less football playing members), I would agree that if saving the MACC is paramount (to the league) than you expand to 14 or 15 before running into issues with not havin enough football-playing members. I want to wait until the NCAA makes its final decision on the new IA attendance rules before we get too excited, though. It still could conceivably be "much ado about nothing" if the rules are amended slightly.
ex Cincy Kid Wrote:Actually, Scha, you and I do not "part company" on your reasoning and rationale.
You seem to figure we lose three schools, tops.
I think it is possible we could lose more like four or five.
Assming the rules aren't tweaked, of course.
Well, I hope that the NCAA considers a 3 year attendance period (vs. 2) before "throwing am existing IA program to the wolves" in a manner of speaking. If they don't, then I think the MAC will likely lose 3 programs to the rule out of EMU, Kent, Akron, and Buffalo. My gut instinct is that Buffalo will make it at first (partly due to having Syracuse at home), but they have to start winning sometime soon. With all due respect to some of the fine EMU posters we have on this board, I think that EMU is in trouble, and so is Kent.
I think CMU, BSU, and Akron will eke by, but if the MAC wants to continue to maintain a MACC they may need to be proactive about membership expansion. At the same time, as I said above, you don't want to make more "UCF" type decisions that do not work out.
Also, I think that if Kent is lost to IA football, the league rules will be amended to allow Kent to stay in the MAC for all other sports..........that's why having Temple as a football only member does make sense. And Scha, if we could ever got Navy and Army to join that would be just awesome, as I have the highest respect for those programs.
It is conversations like this that almost make me wish that Toledo were joining C-USA. Almost. Okay, no it doesn't, but some of the names being kicked around here would kill the reputation that the MAC has been working so hard to foster.
As anyone addressed how you go from 1A to 1AA. Let us say that a school does not make the grade with attendance. Then they say you are not 1A. Well, you are not 1AA because you have 85 kids on grants. How do you go from 85 to 60 the next year. They can not say that you can not recruit this year. That would kill a program dead. Logistically, it would take 3-4 years for a 1A program to meet 1AA requirements.
I do think you have to take into consideration travel arrangements when discussing this - UCF is the strange bird at the moment, because obviously no one can bus to Orlando like they can just about any other MAC school. For NIU, WKU would probably be a bus trip and MTSU might be a flight, but for most other MAC schools each are within reasonable driving distance.
Army, Navy, Delaware, Temple - these are fine schools, but they are quite a bit outside of our footprint and instantly increase costs for current MAC schools. On the other hand, WKU (BB) and MTSU (FB) each appear to be similar programs to current MAC schools.
HuskieDan Wrote:Army, Navy, Delaware, Temple - these are fine schools, but they are quite a bit outside of our footprint and instantly increase costs for current MAC schools. On the other hand, WKU (BB) and MTSU (FB) each appear to be similar programs to current MAC schools.
Actually, Temple and Delaware are only a couple extra hours drive from the MAC footprint than MTSU/WKU. The question most people in this board can't answer is where exactly is WKU? WKU is on the boarder of Tennesse.....its a 6 hour drive from Ball St or MiamiO, and MTSU is another hour beyond that. Ohio would have a shorter trip to Western Michigan than down to WKU. WKU is as much of a bus ride for the Bobcats as ECU would be.
WKU is a bus ride for maybe 3-4 schools in the MAC, maybe a whole southern division if you can put it together. But from Ohio's perspective currently every school is a bus ride, except NIU.
I don't see any logic behind a preemptive strike to pick up 1-AA WKU and struggling MTSU. They add a couple of markets on Fox Sports Net but they do little else but carry their own weight.
12 is the best number........Let's wait and see if we need to expand for the attendance requirements. If we drop back to 8-9 schools, Temple would be a more than logical replacement FB only. However, if we drop to 7, Temple might be forced to join the MAC because of the 8 all sport members rule......and I'm sure they will want some travel partners to reduce costs. It doesn't matter if Delaware and UMass want to stay in 1-AA.....the can play in the MAC for other sports. I know Delware would jump at the chance to play in a basketball league with Temple, and UMass would rather be associated with state schools.
If the MAC loses too many schools and can't pick up Temple for some reason thats OK by me. I'd rather play as an independent before we start loading up on Sun Belt Schools just to maintain a 1-A league.
Do not forget basketball.
I have absolutely no interest in Mass. or Delaware for the MAC, and limited interest for Temple. I don't know enough about MTSU to have an opinion one way or another. Same for WKU. What I DO know is that I'm opposed to being the staircase for 1AA teams wanting to move up unless they can bring a VERY good bball program with them and a commitment to establishing themselves as a strong 1A football program.