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(03-08-2024 08:56 PM)levydl Wrote:  

(03-08-2024 06:42 PM)Former Lurker Wrote:  

(03-08-2024 01:28 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  

(03-08-2024 12:12 PM)OKIcat Wrote:  

(03-08-2024 11:46 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  With legal betting all over and NIL cash being spread around wildly some places I've wondered for a while if kids who are not getting the big NIL checks would be more accessible by some of the shady elements around gambling.

I've had concerns about this as well. Legalized gambling, and especially sports betting, is so pervasive now and how could thousands of college basketball games each season be monitored or investigated?

Sadly, I think “altered” games will become all-too commonplace. Every oddball play, call, turn of events, will cast doubt.

Professional/college sports aren’t nearly as fun anymore

This is inevitable when the ethos of an activity formerly considered a sport becomes “get paid.”

College hoops has had point shaving scandals going back to the early '50s with CCNY, Boston College in the '70s, Arizona St. in the '90s.

I think the point is that now that you’ve opened up this activity to a much broader audience there will be opportunities to participate in the illegal side a magnitude much greater than in the past.

(03-08-2024 09:08 PM)Billy_Bearcat Wrote:  

(03-08-2024 08:56 PM)levydl Wrote:  

(03-08-2024 06:42 PM)Former Lurker Wrote:  

(03-08-2024 01:28 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  

(03-08-2024 12:12 PM)OKIcat Wrote:  I've had concerns about this as well. Legalized gambling, and especially sports betting, is so pervasive now and how could thousands of college basketball games each season be monitored or investigated?

Sadly, I think “altered” games will become all-too commonplace. Every oddball play, call, turn of events, will cast doubt.

Professional/college sports aren’t nearly as fun anymore

This is inevitable when the ethos of an activity formerly considered a sport becomes “get paid.”

College hoops has had point shaving scandals going back to the early '50s with CCNY, Boston College in the '70s, Arizona St. in the '90s.

I think the point is that now that you’ve opened up this activity to a much broader audience there will be opportunities to participate in the illegal side a magnitude much greater than in the past.

I agree, but that was definitely not his point.

(03-08-2024 06:42 PM)Former Lurker Wrote:  This is inevitable when the ethos of an activity formerly considered a sport becomes “get paid.”

Collegiate sports has been a billion dollar industry for a long time. Look at what ADs are paid, coaches are paid.

Look at the massive TV deals. Look at the massive realignment... it's weird that the thing that triggers some people is the players getting some money out of it.

Everyone else has been getting paid off them for a long time.

That said, I understand Rath's point on fan donations subsidizing a large portion of NIL being problematic. I think that's basically been the universities/conferences trying to keep their huge piece of the pie and push the player portion off as an additional cost to fans. I don't know how sustainable that is but we'll see.

My point was more that some kids who are not on the NIL gravy train are perhaps going to be looking at players even in their own conference who are making enough to post instagram pics of them getting the keys to a new Lambo at the dealership (SEC football but you get my point) and may be more open to making $$ any way they can - above board or otherwise. Legal gambling just possibly makes access to a pressure point that much easier. Criminal elements aren't always stupid...they will know to try to exploit that.

Not saying it happened since they are going to investigate but a program like Temple in a big city would be a perfect target. It won't be a blue blood taking action like that. Your team is having an awful year and you are likely going to lose...just lose by a little more. It won't likely be favorites tossing games.

Well if you guys don't like players fixing games for bettors, then quit betting on games.

(03-08-2024 08:42 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  I've seen some reporting that they may think the point shaving is showing up in games via some inexplicable rebounding statistical anomalies. In that UAB Temple game it was 41-19 with a 10-1 offensive rebounding edge. Not sure if that is normal for those teams or not.

Not sure if it's legit but it would be a smart way if you were on the take. Way easier to hide from casual viewing than throwing the ball away, dribbling off your foot, or missing the rim on purpose.

Saw that only once in the fifteen years has Temple been outrebounded by that many and it was a random game against UC in 2018 or 2019

(03-09-2024 08:53 AM)Bear Catlett Wrote:  Well if you guys don't like players fixing games for bettors, then quit betting on games.

Truly, that's the root cause here. The fact that our state governments have been engaged in legalized gambling through lotteries for years now, sent a message that gambling was not only socially acceptable, but in that case, good for the public schools.

How's that working out? Those schools still need more money and my understanding is the portion of lottery revenues earmarked for that was not incremental but substitutionary of other general funds that were simply transferred to different budget line items when the state lottery was enacted.

I'm not trying to derail this thread, but simply agreeing with the premise that this is a slippery slope and if point shaving proliferates in college sports, it further undermines whatever remaining beliefs people embrace about amateurism and playing for the "love of the game". NIL holds great potential to be helpful for the players who produce "the product" but remains essentially unregulated. Until there are some rules established and enforcement power agreed upon by member institutions this will remain the 21st century equivalent of the Wild West. And the temptation for some to engage in point shaving will be greater than ever knowing the guy with the locker right next to mine is getting seven figures while doing the same work for State University I'm doing for five figures.

(03-09-2024 08:05 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  My point was more that some kids who are not on the NIL gravy train are perhaps going to be looking at players even in their own conference who are making enough to post instagram pics of them getting the keys to a new Lambo at the dealership (SEC football but you get my point) and may be more open to making $$ any way they can - above board or otherwise. Legal gambling just possibly makes access to a pressure point that much easier. Criminal elements aren't always stupid...they will know to try to exploit that.

Not saying it happened since they are going to investigate but a program like Temple in a big city would be a perfect target. It won't be a blue blood taking action like that. Your team is having an awful year and you are likely going to lose...just lose by a little more. It won't likely be favorites tossing games.

Players getting paid something closer to their market value would tend to decrease the likelihood that they'd go outside the system the obtain it.

(03-09-2024 08:05 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  My point was more that some kids who are not on the NIL gravy train are perhaps going to be looking at players even in their own conference who are making enough to post instagram pics of them getting the keys to a new Lambo at the dealership (SEC football but you get my point) and may be more open to making $$ any way they can - above board or otherwise. Legal gambling just possibly makes access to a pressure point that much easier. Criminal elements aren't always stupid...they will know to try to exploit that.

Not saying it happened since they are going to investigate but a program like Temple in a big city would be a perfect target. It won't be a blue blood taking action like that. Your team is having an awful year and you are likely going to lose...just lose by a little more. It won't likely be favorites tossing games.

I remember that Oscar drove an old green Chevy or Olds, and that he couldn't and didn't cash in until after he graduated and turned pro. Are any of the kids who are getting big NIL money and other inducements today as good, relative to their competition, as Oscar was back then? I doubt it.

Everyone seems concerned about the players, what about the Refs fixing games?

(03-09-2024 11:42 AM)Loco Bearcat Wrote:  Everyone seems concerned about the players, what about the Refs fixing games?

Exactly, real easy for them to do it as well.

The question is, if fixing games becomes more prevalent will the masses stop gambling as much? When that happens then you’ll see real reform.

On a tangential note, my utopian scenario would be no one/entity makes all this money off of sports. Coaches make no more than a tenured professor. Players get a full ride, room and board plus meals. And we go back to the old transfer rules of only once and you have to sit a year. The problem really is TV. They want the live content. Maybe the government caps what you can charge to air an amateur event? Take the money completely out of it? Or all TV funds over X go to a NCAA player’s fund that all athletes are entitled to once the graduate. I don’t know, I’m spitballing.

(03-09-2024 10:27 AM)levydl Wrote:  

(03-09-2024 08:05 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  My point was more that some kids who are not on the NIL gravy train are perhaps going to be looking at players even in their own conference who are making enough to post instagram pics of them getting the keys to a new Lambo at the dealership (SEC football but you get my point) and may be more open to making $$ any way they can - above board or otherwise. Legal gambling just possibly makes access to a pressure point that much easier. Criminal elements aren't always stupid...they will know to try to exploit that.

Not saying it happened since they are going to investigate but a program like Temple in a big city would be a perfect target. It won't be a blue blood taking action like that. Your team is having an awful year and you are likely going to lose...just lose by a little more. It won't likely be favorites tossing games.

Players getting paid something closer to their market value would tend to decrease the likelihood that they'd go outside the system the obtain it.

That seems logical, but I doubt it would have a huge impact.

Just like paying higher salaries to politicians gets us higher quality people who use their position less often to make money.

Sorry, couldn't hold a straight face there.

(03-09-2024 08:56 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  

(03-09-2024 10:27 AM)levydl Wrote:  

(03-09-2024 08:05 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  My point was more that some kids who are not on the NIL gravy train are perhaps going to be looking at players even in their own conference who are making enough to post instagram pics of them getting the keys to a new Lambo at the dealership (SEC football but you get my point) and may be more open to making $$ any way they can - above board or otherwise. Legal gambling just possibly makes access to a pressure point that much easier. Criminal elements aren't always stupid...they will know to try to exploit that.

Not saying it happened since they are going to investigate but a program like Temple in a big city would be a perfect target. It won't be a blue blood taking action like that. Your team is having an awful year and you are likely going to lose...just lose by a little more. It won't likely be favorites tossing games.

Players getting paid something closer to their market value would tend to decrease the likelihood that they'd go outside the system the obtain it.

That seems logical, but I doubt it would have a huge impact.

Who knows what that level is.

Heck, now lots of the 2024 MTE tournaments are paying 1 million per team minimum to go to each participants' NIL and another million in NIL to the team that wins. And this is just the start.

(03-09-2024 11:33 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  

(03-09-2024 08:56 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  

(03-09-2024 10:27 AM)levydl Wrote:  

(03-09-2024 08:05 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  My point was more that some kids who are not on the NIL gravy train are perhaps going to be looking at players even in their own conference who are making enough to post instagram pics of them getting the keys to a new Lambo at the dealership (SEC football but you get my point) and may be more open to making $$ any way they can - above board or otherwise. Legal gambling just possibly makes access to a pressure point that much easier. Criminal elements aren't always stupid...they will know to try to exploit that.

Not saying it happened since they are going to investigate but a program like Temple in a big city would be a perfect target. It won't be a blue blood taking action like that. Your team is having an awful year and you are likely going to lose...just lose by a little more. It won't likely be favorites tossing games.

Players getting paid something closer to their market value would tend to decrease the likelihood that they'd go outside the system the obtain it.

That seems logical, but I doubt it would have a huge impact.

Who knows what that level is.

Heck, now lots of the 2024 MTE tournaments are paying 1 million per team minimum to go to each participants' NIL and another million in NIL to the team that wins. And this is just the start.

The horror of organizers paying teams to play in their for-profit tournaments!

I shouldn't even engage with the board's resident leukocyte but what the heck.

The "horror" is that until this new loophole gets closed every program that Atlantis and MGM and Maui picks for 2024 gets to tell top HS recruits and portal targets that in addition to whatever package is offered (despite the fact that NIL is not allowed as a recruiting enticement lol), if they come there rather than going elsewhere, they are also guaranteed an additional 75k more just for being on the roster for that week with a chance to double up.

Nice for those couple dozen schools' recruiting efforts. Not so equitable for the rest.

FWIW the 10 teams vying for the $11 million in the Las Vegas Players Era Tournament in November.

Alabama
Duke
FAU
Houston
Kansas
Oregon
San Diego State
St. Joe's
Syracuse
Virginia

(03-11-2024 08:16 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  I shouldn't even engage with the board's resident leukocyte but what the heck.

The "horror" is that until this new loophole gets closed every program that Atlantis and MGM and Maui picks for 2024 gets to tell top HS recruits and portal targets that in addition to whatever package is offered (despite the fact that NIL is not allowed as a recruiting enticement lol), if they come there rather than going elsewhere, they are also guaranteed an additional 75k more just for being on the roster for that week with a chance to double up.

Nice for those couple dozen schools' recruiting efforts. Not so equitable for the rest.

FWIW the 10 teams vying for the $11 million in the Las Vegas Players Era Tournament in November.

Alabama
Duke
FAU
Houston
Kansas
Oregon
San Diego State
St. Joe's
Syracuse
Virginia

That's right, I'm trying to rid this board of stupid takes.

Yeah, if only the players weren't getting paid, then college basketball would be a completely level playing field . . .

(03-11-2024 09:37 AM)levydl Wrote:  That's right, I'm trying to rid this board of stupid takes.

Yeah, if only the players weren't getting paid, then college basketball would be a completely level playing field . . .

That's not your job. If you are going to troll people you can move on. Your constant trolling of Rath has become tiresome.

I'm thick skinned...wouldn't even mind if he actually added anything but snipes at a couple posters. Must be a treat around the office water cooler.

Continuing on the OT of the NIL payment MTEs development the talk is that these and other new big dollar tournaments will start competing for premier schools by escalating NIL $$ and may eventually skip the tv networks as first line of logistics to negotiate directly with star players who will then have input in scheduling. It's fascinating to watch in real time.