If the Big East were ever to be split between the Big 12 and ACC, both leagues (would) look very strong:

Big 12
Arizona
Arizona State
Baylor
BYU
Cincinnati
Colorado
Houston
Iowa State
Kansas
Kansas State
Oklahoma State
Texas Tech
TCU
UCF
Utah
West Virginia
*Butler
*Creighton
*Marquette
*DePaul

ACC (assuming FSU/Clemson/UNC/Miami leave down the road);
Boston College
UConn
Duke
Georgia Tech
Louisville
NC State
Pittsburgh
Syracuse
USF
Virginia
Virginia Tech
Wake Forest
*Georgetown
*Notre Dame
*Providence
*Seton Hall
*St. John's
*Xavier
*Villanova

(10-10-2023 01:10 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(10-10-2023 12:44 PM)Sicembear11 Wrote:  

(10-10-2023 12:33 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(10-10-2023 12:20 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  I don't see Gonzaga valuable enough to warrant sending teams in most sports to Spokane from Orlando, Morgantown, etc.

This is the best possible argument against Gonzaga. Not "their Brand sucks" or "Few will retire in a decade and they'll turn into Iowa St", but "the travel is gonna suck". Gonzaga needs to make enough money for the Conference that the travel is covered by their increased value, plus a bit more, and the added Prestige needs to be considerable, too b/c they're not bringing football. It's a risk, no 2 ways about that, but not b/c of an imminent implosion of Gonzaga basketball or some lack of Basketball Brand. As Frank noted above, they'd immediately be one of the top Brands in either the B1G or SEC RIGHT NOW. Gonzaga is a chance for Yormark to add something that reinforces to everybody "the Big 12 is a Serious Athletic Conference". I'd even argue that the very fact that we've spent 150 posts discussing this topic in only 24 hours speaks to Gonzaga's importance. If it was St Mary's then nobody would care.

I think the Big 12 will have structured scheduling to reduce travel impact across the board.

Keep Gonzaga + BYU + 4C on each others schedules as much as possible while still getting those desirable basketball matchups across the conference. When dealing with non-western play, strive for games with easy travel and connections.

DFW ->TCU
Hobby->Houston
Orlando->UFC
CNKI->Cincy

Are the airport schools going to be content to be the ones to always travel to Spokane? Is Arizona/ASU going to be happy having to travel to Spokane in all team sports, and miss out on games in recruit heavy Texas?


Does having too many brands in basketball, a sport that other than a few blue bloods, have brands come and go, dilute the value of all the brands? (In other words, is a 26-8 Gonzaga with 5 conference losses still a name brand versus the 32-2 WCC Gonzaga?

1. I don't if they will be content, but I would think that there is a need flexibility. The Big 12 going national and coast-to-coast forces this issue. Being centrally anchored with western and eastern wings provides flexibility. Tucson to Spokane is a comparable distance to Ames and is closer than Cincinnati, West Virginia, and Orlando. The Big 12 doesn't have a great setup for travel partners, so flight convenience should be a consideration for alleviating long travel concerns. In basketball, there are enough conference games to ensure that everyone could get a game in Texas if that was the primary need. Absent the western wing existing, this wouldn't be a conversation. But it does, and it gives it some merit.

2. The too many brands question isn't a novel question. Looking at the future SEC and B1G, it seems the more brands the better. You are correct that the enhanced losses will dilute some brands, but they will re-enhance on the seasons where they are finally winning. In the SEC and B1G I would point to Arkansas and Nebraska as examples of diluted brands that have suffered in their conference structure. However, when they do win the Hogs and Huskers are out in droves and when they are losing it is the Buckeyes or the Gators that are engaged in the product.

Gonzaga does present a risk in this analysis as when/if they turn bad, they don't have a whole lot of fundamental value to float them. Even when they are winning, there aren't as many Gonzaga fans compared to Arizona or KU or KSU or WVU or whoever it is they are beating. This goes to the brand discussion, who is a Zaga fan, who supports Gonzaga, what sort of national or regional prominence does their fanbase have?

I've maintained in the past that I would rather see the Big 12 try their luck with Big East teams if the goal is to poach strong brand basketball schools. Try to find schools that fit those metrics and are in the footprint. (Crieghton, Marquette, Nova, Georgetown, UConn, etc.) My position hasn't changed, but I do think it is worth vetting Gonzaga now that the footprint is decidedly more West than before.

(10-10-2023 02:55 PM)Sicembear11 Wrote:  

(10-10-2023 01:10 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(10-10-2023 12:44 PM)Sicembear11 Wrote:  

(10-10-2023 12:33 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(10-10-2023 12:20 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  I don't see Gonzaga valuable enough to warrant sending teams in most sports to Spokane from Orlando, Morgantown, etc.

This is the best possible argument against Gonzaga. Not "their Brand sucks" or "Few will retire in a decade and they'll turn into Iowa St", but "the travel is gonna suck". Gonzaga needs to make enough money for the Conference that the travel is covered by their increased value, plus a bit more, and the added Prestige needs to be considerable, too b/c they're not bringing football. It's a risk, no 2 ways about that, but not b/c of an imminent implosion of Gonzaga basketball or some lack of Basketball Brand. As Frank noted above, they'd immediately be one of the top Brands in either the B1G or SEC RIGHT NOW. Gonzaga is a chance for Yormark to add something that reinforces to everybody "the Big 12 is a Serious Athletic Conference". I'd even argue that the very fact that we've spent 150 posts discussing this topic in only 24 hours speaks to Gonzaga's importance. If it was St Mary's then nobody would care.

I think the Big 12 will have structured scheduling to reduce travel impact across the board.

Keep Gonzaga + BYU + 4C on each others schedules as much as possible while still getting those desirable basketball matchups across the conference. When dealing with non-western play, strive for games with easy travel and connections.

DFW ->TCU
Hobby->Houston
Orlando->UFC
CNKI->Cincy

Are the airport schools going to be content to be the ones to always travel to Spokane? Is Arizona/ASU going to be happy having to travel to Spokane in all team sports, and miss out on games in recruit heavy Texas?


Does having too many brands in basketball, a sport that other than a few blue bloods, have brands come and go, dilute the value of all the brands? (In other words, is a 26-8 Gonzaga with 5 conference losses still a name brand versus the 32-2 WCC Gonzaga?

1. I don't if they will be content, but I would think that there is a need flexibility. The Big 12 going national and coast-to-coast forces this issue. Being centrally anchored with western and eastern wings provides flexibility. Tucson to Spokane is a comparable distance to Ames and is closer than Cincinnati, West Virginia, and Orlando. The Big 12 doesn't have a great setup for travel partners, so flight convenience should be a consideration for alleviating long travel concerns. In basketball, there are enough conference games to ensure that everyone could get a game in Texas if that was the primary need. Absent the western wing existing, this wouldn't be a conversation. But it does, and it gives it some merit.

2. The too many brands question isn't a novel question. Looking at the future SEC and B1G, it seems the more brands the better. You are correct that the enhanced losses will dilute some brands, but they will re-enhance on the seasons where they are finally winning. In the SEC and B1G I would point to Arkansas and Nebraska as examples of diluted brands that have suffered in their conference structure. However, when they do win the Hogs and Huskers are out in droves and when they are losing it is the Buckeyes or the Gators that are engaged in the product.

Gonzaga does present a risk in this analysis as when/if they turn bad, they don't have a whole lot of fundamental value to float them. Even when they are winning, there aren't as many Gonzaga fans compared to Arizona or KU or KSU or WVU or whoever it is they are beating. This goes to the brand discussion, who is a Zaga fan, who supports Gonzaga, what sort of national or regional prominence does their fanbase have?

I've maintained in the past that I would rather see the Big 12 try their luck with Big East teams if the goal is to poach strong brand basketball schools. Try to find schools that fit those metrics and are in the footprint. (Crieghton, Marquette, Nova, Georgetown, UConn, etc.) My position hasn't changed, but I do think it is worth vetting Gonzaga now that the footprint is decidedly more West than before.

Points well made.

As to the "Gonzaga brand" theme ...

In asking my friends, co-workers, acquaintances, etc., here in Nashville their thoughts about Gonzaga, those who consider Gonzaga a major and full brand and who hold the program in the highest esteem tend to be (obviously there are many exceptions to the rule):

* fans of basketball programs at private universities (or, even more so, "anti-Kansas, anti-Kentucky, anti-North Carolina types) and/or fans of "the little man."

* fans who have lived in large, urban areas (or spent much time visiting such cities)

* older rather than younger

There are members of certain demographic groups who, from what I've observed, do not consider Gonzaga a full-fledged brand but, rather, a "semi-brand."

(10-10-2023 02:14 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  If the Big East were ever to be split between the Big 12 and ACC, both leagues (would) look very strong:

Big 12
Arizona
Arizona State
Baylor
BYU
Cincinnati
Colorado
Houston
Iowa State
Kansas
Kansas State
Oklahoma State
Texas Tech
TCU
UCF
Utah
West Virginia
*Butler
*Creighton
*Marquette
*DePaul

ACC (assuming FSU/Clemson/UNC/Miami leave down the road);
Boston College
UConn
Duke
Georgia Tech
Louisville
NC State
Pittsburgh
Syracuse
USF
Virginia
Virginia Tech
Wake Forest
*Georgetown
*Notre Dame
*Providence
*Seton Hall
*St. John's
*Xavier
*Villanova

Don't forget Cal, Stanford, and SMU is in the ACC now.