(08-24-2023 06:15 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  I'm not sure a merger will be recognized. The NCAA has shot down multiple attempts.

I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts the schools who left the Pac-12 will sue the new entity, Oregon State and Washington State on the ground that they are simply creating a scheme to unlawfully hang onto NCAA distributions they are not entitled to, because the Pac-12 ceased to exist.

And frankly that is what it is, an attempt by Oregon State and Washington State to try to get as much of the potentially $65M future distributions from past credits earned by the Pac-12 over the coming years. Let's be honest, what is really happening, is OSU and WSU are joining the MWC, but claiming ownership of the Pac-12 and all it's assets. The has billable hour written all over it.

The PAC 12 schools who left have no rights to the PAC 12 name and credits. They don't have the voting power to even disband it since everybody announced that they have left. Gloria is a lawyer and a grad from University of California, and she knows what the legal terms are. Rice still have the rights to the SWC, and they could get SMU and grab others to reformed a new SWC. PAC 12 is still known as a FBS conference under the rules of the NCAA. Second, the tv market is not in demand by the viewing public for crappy football schools which the Big 12 grab. They want winners, and the top half of MWC, Memphis, SMU, UTSA, Tulane, Toledo NDSU, South Dakota State and some of the SBC schools join forces with the two PAC schools left could make a much stronger P5 conference than the ACC and Big 10 combined.

(08-24-2023 06:15 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  I'm not sure a merger will be recognized. The NCAA has shot down multiple attempts.

I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts the schools who left the Pac-12 will sue the new entity, Oregon State and Washington State on the ground that they are simply creating a scheme to unlawfully hang onto NCAA distributions they are not entitled to, because the Pac-12 ceased to exist.

And frankly that is what it is, an attempt by Oregon State and Washington State to try to get as much of the potentially $65M future distributions from past credits earned by the Pac-12 over the coming years. Let's be honest, what is really happening, is OSU and WSU are joining the MWC, but claiming ownership of the Pac-12 and all it's assets. The has billable hour written all over it.

The Pac 2 can certainly rebuild by inviting the entire MWC.

Nothing in the rules against that

(08-24-2023 06:15 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  I'm not sure a merger will be recognized. The NCAA has shot down multiple attempts. ...

If it's called a merger but it is really the PAC inviting all of the members of the MWC to join and the MWC being dissolved as an FBS conference, that is entirely within the rules.

The NCAA made very clear in the continuity rule change that continuity is the continued existence of the conference as a legal structure with a suitable number of members.

And it would create one more at-large spot in the NCAA tourney, so what's not to like?

(08-24-2023 06:36 PM)solohawks Wrote:  

(08-24-2023 06:15 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  I'm not sure a merger will be recognized. The NCAA has shot down multiple attempts.

I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts the schools who left the Pac-12 will sue the new entity, Oregon State and Washington State on the ground that they are simply creating a scheme to unlawfully hang onto NCAA distributions they are not entitled to, because the Pac-12 ceased to exist.

And frankly that is what it is, an attempt by Oregon State and Washington State to try to get as much of the potentially $65M future distributions from past credits earned by the Pac-12 over the coming years. Let's be honest, what is really happening, is OSU and WSU are joining the MWC, but claiming ownership of the Pac-12 and all it's assets. The has billable hour written all over it.

The Pac 2 can certainly rebuild by inviting the entire MWC.

Nothing in the rules against that

They only need 9, however.

(08-24-2023 07:28 PM)Aztecgolfer Wrote:  

(08-24-2023 06:36 PM)solohawks Wrote:  

(08-24-2023 06:15 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  I'm not sure a merger will be recognized. The NCAA has shot down multiple attempts.

I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts the schools who left the Pac-12 will sue the new entity, Oregon State and Washington State on the ground that they are simply creating a scheme to unlawfully hang onto NCAA distributions they are not entitled to, because the Pac-12 ceased to exist.

And frankly that is what it is, an attempt by Oregon State and Washington State to try to get as much of the potentially $65M future distributions from past credits earned by the Pac-12 over the coming years. Let's be honest, what is really happening, is OSU and WSU are joining the MWC, but claiming ownership of the Pac-12 and all it's assets. The has billable hour written all over it.

The Pac 2 can certainly rebuild by inviting the entire MWC.

Nothing in the rules against that

They only need 9, however.

But not taking everyone would likely make things messy

If the MWC grabs Gonzaga as well… the conference will greatly improved.

(08-24-2023 07:28 PM)Aztecgolfer Wrote:  

(08-24-2023 06:36 PM)solohawks Wrote:  

(08-24-2023 06:15 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  I'm not sure a merger will be recognized. The NCAA has shot down multiple attempts.

I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts the schools who left the Pac-12 will sue the new entity, Oregon State and Washington State on the ground that they are simply creating a scheme to unlawfully hang onto NCAA distributions they are not entitled to, because the Pac-12 ceased to exist.

And frankly that is what it is, an attempt by Oregon State and Washington State to try to get as much of the potentially $65M future distributions from past credits earned by the Pac-12 over the coming years. Let's be honest, what is really happening, is OSU and WSU are joining the MWC, but claiming ownership of the Pac-12 and all it's assets. The has billable hour written all over it.

The Pac 2 can certainly rebuild by inviting the entire MWC.

Nothing in the rules against that

They only need 9, however.

It definitely gets easier without Cal and Stanford getting in the way. However, how many might be left out? Wyoming, SJSU, Hawaii, Nevada and maybe New Mexico should all have worries if asked to "trust us" when thinking about dissolving.

My best guess is that if such occurs, the PAC would simply add everyone in the MWC. That would be easier than dissolving the conference.

(08-24-2023 08:11 PM)Ned Low Wrote:  

(08-24-2023 07:28 PM)Aztecgolfer Wrote:  

(08-24-2023 06:36 PM)solohawks Wrote:  

(08-24-2023 06:15 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  I'm not sure a merger will be recognized. The NCAA has shot down multiple attempts.

I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts the schools who left the Pac-12 will sue the new entity, Oregon State and Washington State on the ground that they are simply creating a scheme to unlawfully hang onto NCAA distributions they are not entitled to, because the Pac-12 ceased to exist.

And frankly that is what it is, an attempt by Oregon State and Washington State to try to get as much of the potentially $65M future distributions from past credits earned by the Pac-12 over the coming years. Let's be honest, what is really happening, is OSU and WSU are joining the MWC, but claiming ownership of the Pac-12 and all it's assets. The has billable hour written all over it.

The Pac 2 can certainly rebuild by inviting the entire MWC.

Nothing in the rules against that

They only need 9, however.

It definitely gets easier without Cal and Stanford getting in the way. However, how many might be left out? Wyoming, SJSU, Hawaii, Nevada and maybe New Mexico should all have worries if asked to "trust us" when thinking about dissolving.

My best guess is that if such occurs, the PAC would simply add everyone in the MWC. That would be easier than dissolving the conference.

That is the plan, and working on a pay bump, and keep the P5 as well. If they do get more money like $20 to 25 million per school, and have a pay bump to add like UTEP, UTSA, North Texas, Tulane and Memphis plus a Gonzaga, NDSU football only and Wichita State might bring in some money more especially with football. CBS and Fox would love to get some schools out of ESPN's hands.

(08-24-2023 06:15 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  I'm not sure a merger will be recognized. The NCAA has shot down multiple attempts.

Such as? It was a long time ago, but today's Sun Belt is actually the product of a merger between the American South and Sun Belt. A few years after that, the Great Midwest and Metro became Conference USA. Mergers free up revenue for everyone else - one automatic bid to March Madness becomes an at-large, and the former Mountain West share of CFP monies gets redistributed. Unless if the CFP has a force majeure provision regarding significant changes in a conference's membership, there is nothing they can do about it.

(08-24-2023 06:15 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts the schools who left the Pac-12 will sue the new entity, Oregon State and Washington State on the ground that they are simply creating a scheme to unlawfully hang onto NCAA distributions they are not entitled to, because the Pac-12 ceased to exist.

And frankly that is what it is, an attempt by Oregon State and Washington State to try to get as much of the potentially $65M future distributions from past credits earned by the Pac-12 over the coming years. Let's be honest, what is really happening, is OSU and WSU are joining the MWC, but claiming ownership of the Pac-12 and all it's assets. The has billable hour written all over it.

The other schools can sue, but they made their bed by leaving the conference. Stanford and Berkeley can try to hold up a merger before they leave, but they would be condemning themselves to either de facto independence in all sports, or essentially being in a conference full of Mountain West and AAC schools themselves.

There will be no valid claim to any conference assets by former members. If the departing schools wanted anything they should have negotiated that prior to announcing their departure. If the conference network isn't making money anyway, it would be better just to shut it down.

If there was a provision that the tournament credits revert to the schools that earned them if a conference lost the majority of it's members, then the schools that left the Pac 12 would be entitled to those. But from what I've read that's not a thing.

The Mountain West doesn't have to dissolve - it could simply set the exit fee to zero ahead of the merger by whatever legislative process the conference has in place. The Pac 14 will have to turn in one set of keys to the CFP, but as far as March Madness is concerned, the Pac 12 will have gone from 23 to 13 teams (assuming there are no other additions).

(08-24-2023 06:46 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(08-24-2023 06:15 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  I'm not sure a merger will be recognized. The NCAA has shot down multiple attempts. ...

If it's called a merger but it is really the PAC inviting all of the members of the MWC to join and the MWC being dissolved as an FBS conference, that is entirely within the rules.

The NCAA made very clear in the continuity rule change that continuity is the continued existence of the conference as a legal structure with a suitable number of members.

And it would create one more at-large spot in the NCAA tourney, so what's not to like?

It will also help 11 members of the MWC get rid of the Boise exception.

(08-24-2023 08:11 PM)Ned Low Wrote:  ... My best guess is that if such occurs, the PAC would simply add everyone in the MWC. That would be easier than dissolving the conference.

The step after the PAC invites everyone in the MWC into the PAC is that the MWC is dissolved. You are talking about two steps of the same process is if they were two different processes.

And, yes, the invitation to join step comes first, and the dissolve the MWC step come after.

(08-24-2023 07:28 PM)Aztecgolfer Wrote:  

(08-24-2023 06:36 PM)solohawks Wrote:  

(08-24-2023 06:15 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  I'm not sure a merger will be recognized. The NCAA has shot down multiple attempts.

I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts the schools who left the Pac-12 will sue the new entity, Oregon State and Washington State on the ground that they are simply creating a scheme to unlawfully hang onto NCAA distributions they are not entitled to, because the Pac-12 ceased to exist.

And frankly that is what it is, an attempt by Oregon State and Washington State to try to get as much of the potentially $65M future distributions from past credits earned by the Pac-12 over the coming years. Let's be honest, what is really happening, is OSU and WSU are joining the MWC, but claiming ownership of the Pac-12 and all it's assets. The has billable hour written all over it.

The Pac 2 can certainly rebuild by inviting the entire MWC.

Nothing in the rules against that

They only need 9, however.

If they don't take all 12, then it's going to court. The three left out will sue the nine for the full amount of the exit fees due, plus the loss of expected MWC distributions for however many years. We are talking $290M in exit fees, and $20M per year additional subsidy for however long the court decides.

Also, since two of the three said to be targeted to be left behind are in the same state university system under the same board (Nevada is with UNLV, SJSU is with SDSU and Fresno State; Hawaii is all alone) there will no doubt be blocking moves from the BOT and from the governors' offices. Two CSU schools conspiring to deny a third CSU school $100M in damages isn't going to fly well, nor will UNLV's move to deny Nevada $100M float well there.

This has fraud written all over it. Only an idiot would try to pull it off and leave schools out.

Of course, it's all moot. There is no TV partner. And the way distributions work the MWC schools would get none of the NCAA credits of the former Pac-12 schools, that strictly goes to Oregon State and Washington State. It's a win for OSU and WSU if they can pull it off, it's not much of a win at all for the MWC schools.

But as I said this is a dead concept because no TV partner exists. And no MWC school will move without an ironclad media contract. That's all on OSU and WSU to come up with it. But those are clown act schools, they won't come up with anything.

(08-24-2023 03:24 PM)JSchmack Wrote:  If Stanford/Cal join the ACC..

WSU and OSU merge the Pac-12 with the Mountain West, right? That's the smart play.

You fire the Pac-12 office staff, sell of the assets of Pac-12 Network. Stop paying $696,000 in monthly rent in downtown San Francisco, and rebrand the Mountain West as the Pac-12 (or Pac-14) and share the NCAA units from both conferences.

LIKE ^^^

The simplest answer is that the MWC also wants 16+ members just like everyone else, so OSU and WSU will join the current 12 MWC, probably eventually with another 2+ members.

Everyone will be on board with a full merger, because everyone will be aligned that it's in everyone's interests. There are no duplicated markets, and there's no other alternative that makes sense.

I'm not sure what "fraud" there would be here. The two conferences will pool NCAA tourney credits, work closely with their TV partners, etc. across both legal entities and figure out the best path forward as a single entity. Everything will be determined through complex multiparty negotiation (including Stanford and Cal, even though they're leaving, because there'll be questions about the Pac-12 war chest and how that should be divided), but in the end, I think it's very likely WSU and OSU cleanly end up with all 12 members of the MWC, likely through a reverse merger to retain--for whatever it's worth--the autonomy label that the Pac-12 currently holds.

And IMO in about a week or two, we will shift our discussion to whether or not the Pac-MWC expands further.

(08-24-2023 11:31 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  ... And the way distributions work the MWC schools would get none of the NCAA credits of the former Pac-12 schools, that strictly goes to Oregon State and Washington State. ...

No, that is not the way NCAA distributions "work'. They go to the conference, unless the conference dissolves or fails to hold onto its status as a Division 1 multi-sports conference, in which case they revert to the schools that appeared.

Now, making invitations contingent on the invited schools not sharing in the legacy credits is certainly something that a conference can do, but even if WSU and OSU don't share them equally, it seems likely they share them to a certain degree, because giving the MWC schools a reason to accept the invitation is how they get to keep their larger share.

(08-24-2023 07:47 PM)solohawks Wrote:  

(08-24-2023 07:28 PM)Aztecgolfer Wrote:  

(08-24-2023 06:36 PM)solohawks Wrote:  

(08-24-2023 06:15 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  I'm not sure a merger will be recognized. The NCAA has shot down multiple attempts.

I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts the schools who left the Pac-12 will sue the new entity, Oregon State and Washington State on the ground that they are simply creating a scheme to unlawfully hang onto NCAA distributions they are not entitled to, because the Pac-12 ceased to exist.

And frankly that is what it is, an attempt by Oregon State and Washington State to try to get as much of the potentially $65M future distributions from past credits earned by the Pac-12 over the coming years. Let's be honest, what is really happening, is OSU and WSU are joining the MWC, but claiming ownership of the Pac-12 and all it's assets. The has billable hour written all over it.

The Pac 2 can certainly rebuild by inviting the entire MWC.

Nothing in the rules against that

They only need 9, however.

But not taking everyone would likely make things messy

So was breaking up the PAC.

(08-24-2023 11:55 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(08-24-2023 11:31 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  ... And the way distributions work the MWC schools would get none of the NCAA credits of the former Pac-12 schools, that strictly goes to Oregon State and Washington State. ...

No, that is not the way NCAA distributions "work'. They go to the conference, unless the conference dissolves or fails to hold onto its status as a Division 1 multi-sports conference, in which case they revert to the schools that appeared.

Now, making invitations contingent on the invited schools not sharing in the legacy credits is certainly something that a conference can do, but even if WSU and OSU don't share them equally, it seems likely they share them to a certain degree, because giving the MWC schools a reason to accept the invitation is how they get to keep their larger share.

Exactly. Furthermore----since all the MW schools would be coming over in a merger---as part of the merger agreement, the conference members could potentially agree to sign over all MW credits previously earned by all the MW teams to the merged Pac12 pool of NCAA credits. Yes, the credits go to the earning school in a conference dissolution---but the individual schools could agree to give them back to the new conference if thats what it takes to get the deal done. Bottom line, it is possible for the new conference to hold on to all the credits from both conferences.

(08-24-2023 03:49 PM)JSchmack Wrote:  

(08-24-2023 03:30 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(08-24-2023 03:24 PM)JSchmack Wrote:  If Stanford/Cal join the ACC..

WSU and OSU merge the Pac-12 with the Mountain West, right? That's the smart play.

You fire the Pac-12 office staff, sell of the assets of Pac-12 Network. Stop paying $696,000 in monthly rent in downtown San Francisco, and rebrand the Mountain West as the Pac-12 (or Pac-14) and share the NCAA units from both conferences.

Should the headquarters be moved? Renting an office space on the west coast is not cheap.

New office be at one of these cities?

Boise
Denver
Colorado Springs
Salt Lake City
Albuquerque
San Antonio
El Paso

I think you're overthinking it.

You don't need to "move" HQs. Because it's two conferences becoming one, they currently HAVE two HQs, and two conference office staffs.

You use the MWC HQ because it's INSANELY CHEAPER than downtown San Francisco. (It's in Colorado Springs).

You use the MWC staff because they're the ones who didn't let their conference fall to pieces and in power of OSU/WSU need a home.

The "Merger" is just paperwork... it's no different than "WSU/OSU JOIN the Mountain West" except by merging, you keep the Pac-12 name/branding, Intellectual Property rights and existing contracts. (And most importantly, NCAA Tournament revenue).

LIKE ^^^

(08-24-2023 11:31 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  

(08-24-2023 07:28 PM)Aztecgolfer Wrote:  

(08-24-2023 06:36 PM)solohawks Wrote:  

(08-24-2023 06:15 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  I'm not sure a merger will be recognized. The NCAA has shot down multiple attempts.

I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts the schools who left the Pac-12 will sue the new entity, Oregon State and Washington State on the ground that they are simply creating a scheme to unlawfully hang onto NCAA distributions they are not entitled to, because the Pac-12 ceased to exist.

And frankly that is what it is, an attempt by Oregon State and Washington State to try to get as much of the potentially $65M future distributions from past credits earned by the Pac-12 over the coming years. Let's be honest, what is really happening, is OSU and WSU are joining the MWC, but claiming ownership of the Pac-12 and all it's assets. The has billable hour written all over it.

The Pac 2 can certainly rebuild by inviting the entire MWC.

Nothing in the rules against that

They only need 9, however.

If they don't take all 12, then it's going to court. The three left out will sue the nine for the full amount of the exit fees due, plus the loss of expected MWC distributions for however many years. We are talking $290M in exit fees, and $20M per year additional subsidy for however long the court decides.

Also, since two of the three said to be targeted to be left behind are in the same state university system under the same board (Nevada is with UNLV, SJSU is with SDSU and Fresno State; Hawaii is all alone) there will no doubt be blocking moves from the BOT and from the governors' offices. Two CSU schools conspiring to deny a third CSU school $100M in damages isn't going to fly well, nor will UNLV's move to deny Nevada $100M float well there.

This has fraud written all over it. Only an idiot would try to pull it off and leave schools out.

Of course, it's all moot. There is no TV partner. And the way distributions work the MWC schools would get none of the NCAA credits of the former Pac-12 schools, that strictly goes to Oregon State and Washington State. It's a win for OSU and WSU if they can pull it off, it's not much of a win at all for the MWC schools.

But as I said this is a dead concept because no TV partner exists. And no MWC school will move without an ironclad media contract. That's all on OSU and WSU to come up with it. But those are clown act schools, they won't come up with anything.

It will be a complete merger with the credits from both conferences into one. Nobody is going be kick out.

(08-25-2023 12:57 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(08-24-2023 11:31 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  

(08-24-2023 07:28 PM)Aztecgolfer Wrote:  

(08-24-2023 06:36 PM)solohawks Wrote:  

(08-24-2023 06:15 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  I'm not sure a merger will be recognized. The NCAA has shot down multiple attempts.

I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts the schools who left the Pac-12 will sue the new entity, Oregon State and Washington State on the ground that they are simply creating a scheme to unlawfully hang onto NCAA distributions they are not entitled to, because the Pac-12 ceased to exist.

And frankly that is what it is, an attempt by Oregon State and Washington State to try to get as much of the potentially $65M future distributions from past credits earned by the Pac-12 over the coming years. Let's be honest, what is really happening, is OSU and WSU are joining the MWC, but claiming ownership of the Pac-12 and all it's assets. The has billable hour written all over it.

The Pac 2 can certainly rebuild by inviting the entire MWC.

Nothing in the rules against that

They only need 9, however.

If they don't take all 12, then it's going to court. The three left out will sue the nine for the full amount of the exit fees due, plus the loss of expected MWC distributions for however many years. We are talking $290M in exit fees, and $20M per year additional subsidy for however long the court decides.

Also, since two of the three said to be targeted to be left behind are in the same state university system under the same board (Nevada is with UNLV, SJSU is with SDSU and Fresno State; Hawaii is all alone) there will no doubt be blocking moves from the BOT and from the governors' offices. Two CSU schools conspiring to deny a third CSU school $100M in damages isn't going to fly well, nor will UNLV's move to deny Nevada $100M float well there.

This has fraud written all over it. Only an idiot would try to pull it off and leave schools out.

Of course, it's all moot. There is no TV partner. And the way distributions work the MWC schools would get none of the NCAA credits of the former Pac-12 schools, that strictly goes to Oregon State and Washington State. It's a win for OSU and WSU if they can pull it off, it's not much of a win at all for the MWC schools.

But as I said this is a dead concept because no TV partner exists. And no MWC school will move without an ironclad media contract. That's all on OSU and WSU to come up with it. But those are clown act schools, they won't come up with anything.

It will be a complete merger with the credits from both conferences into one. Nobody is going be kick out.

^^^ Yup this! I personally see Fox and CBS ponying up a bit more cash to secure cheaper late night content and to keep ESPN out. I legitimately could see a deal with maybe 8-10 million per school and potentially more if the MWC got some Texas Markets.

Game plan Gloria presents should be simple:

-Merge under PAC name so NW Twins get their money.

-Get through the 2024 season

-After the 2024 season look at some AAC schools to see if they will add value to the Conference and generate more $$. With Markets being a big deal, add UTSA and UNT (ONLY IF THEY ADD VALUE) and make AF and CSU happy.

-At the same time go after Gonzaga and try to get them to join, would give the MWC 16 Full Time members and 16 Football playing schools, hitting Gloria's mentioned right number of teams.