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anyone watching the 'debate'?
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Eagleyed Offline
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Post: #101
RE: anyone watching the 'debate'?
[quote='CrimsonPhantom' pid='19098980' dateline='1692984439']
Fox News GOP Presidential Debate Draws a Whopping 12.8 Million Viewers


[quote]The Republican debate was Wednesday night, and I have to say I was somewhat disappointed that the debate didn't spend time on the economy, how horrible Joe Biden is, and the weaponization of the government against political opponents and the American people. /quote]
[/quote]

huh? Did the guy who wrote the article watch the debate? The first question had a video about Biden talking about how great his Bidenomics were and asked all the candidates to respond to that?


Some other comments in there makes me think the article writer read a review of the debate from someone and wrote an article on that rather than doing actual first hand research.
08-25-2023 12:35 PM
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CrimsonPhantom Offline
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Post: #102
RE: anyone watching the 'debate'?


Why Twisting The 14th Amendment To Get Trump Won’t Hold Up In Court


Quote:Four indictments of Donald Trump have so far done no more to stop him than two earlier impeachments did. He remains easily the front-runner in the Republican primaries, and in some polls is running equal with President Biden. But now a theory defended by able legal scholars has emerged, arguing that Trump is constitutionally disqualified from serving as president.

Even if Trump secures enough electoral votes to win the presidency next year, legal Professors Michael Paulsen and Will Baude argue, the 14th Amendment to the Constitution would disqualify him from federal office. Former Judge Michael Luttig and Professor Laurence Tribe have enthusiastically seconded the theory. While their theory about the continuing relevance of the Constitution’s insurrection clause strikes us as correct, they err in believing that anyone, down to the lowest county election worker, has the right to strike Trump from the ballot.

Ratified in 1868, the 14th Amendment is a load-bearing constitutional pillar erected during the Reconstruction period. Section 3 deals with the treatment of former state and federal officials, and their allies, who had taken sides with the Confederacy in the Civil War:

No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

Although Section 3 unquestionably applied to Confederates, its text contains nothing limiting it to the Civil War. Rather, it has continuing relevance to any future “insurrection or rebellion.” Although it does not explicitly refer to presidents or presidential candidates, comparison with other constitutional texts referring to “officer[s]” supports the interpretation that it applies to the presidency too.

Section 3 distinguishes between “rebellion” and “insurrection,” and we have a contemporary guide to the meaning of that distinction. In the Prize Cases (1863), the Supreme Court declared that “[i]nsurrection against a government may or may not culminate in an organized rebellion, but a civil war always begins by insurrection against the lawful authority of the Government.” “Insurrection” therefore refers to political violence at a level lower or less organized than an “organized rebellion,” though it may develop into that. Trump may have been an “insurrectionist” but not a “rebel.”

But was he even an “insurrectionist”? In their Atlantic piece, Luttig and Tribe find the answer obvious: “We believe that any disinterested observer who witnessed that bloody assault on the temple of our democracy, and anyone who learns about the many failed schemes to bloodlessly overturn the election before that, would have to come to the same conclusion.”

But that view is not universally shared. Finding “disinterested observers” in a country marked by passionate disagreements over Donald Trump is no easy task. Despite the scenes of the attack on the Capitol and extensive investigations, the American people do not seem to agree that Trump took part in an insurrection or rebellion. Almost half the respondents in a 2022 CBS poll rejected the claim that the events of Jan. 6 were an actual “insurrection” (with the divide tracking partisan lines), and 76 percent viewed it as a “protest gone too far.”

Other considerations also call into question the claim that Trump instigated an “insurrection” in the constitutional sense. If it were clear that Trump engaged in insurrection, the Justice Department should have acted on the Jan. 6 Committee’s referral for prosecution on that charge. Special Counsel Jack Smith should have indicted him for insurrection or seditious conspiracy, which remain federal crimes. If it were obvious that Trump had committed insurrection, Congress should have convicted him in the two weeks between Jan. 6 and Inauguration Day. Instead, the House impeached Trump for indictment to insurrection but the Senate acquitted him.

The Senate’s acquittal is the only official finding by a federal or state institution on the question of whether Trump committed insurrection. The failure of the special counsel to charge insurrection and the Senate to convict in the second impeachment highlights a serious flaw in the academic theory of disqualification.

According to Luttig and Tribe, it appears self-evident that Trump committed insurrection. They assume Trump violated the law without any definitive finding by any federal authority. According to their view, he must carry the burden of proof to show he is not guilty of insurrection or rebellion — a process that achieves the very opposite of our Constitution’s guarantee of due process, which, it so happens, is not just provided for by the Fifth Amendment, but reaffirmed in the same 14th Amendment that contains the disqualification clause. It would be like requiring Barak Obama to prove he was native-born (a constitutional prerequisite for being president) if state election officials disqualified him for being foreign-born.

The Electoral College Chooses Presidents, Not State Officials
If this academic view were correct, it would throw our electoral system into chaos. One of the chief virtues of the Electoral College system is that it decentralizes the selection of the president: State legislatures decide the manner for choosing electors, with each state receiving votes equal to its representation in the House and Senate. States run the elections, which means that hundreds, if not thousands, of city, county, and state officials could execute this unilateral finding of insurrection. A county state election official, for example, could choose to remove Trump’s name from printed ballots or refuse to count any votes in his favor. A state court could order Trump barred from the election. A state governor could refuse to certify any electoral votes in his favor. The decentralization of our electoral system could allow a single official, especially from a battleground state, to sway the outcome of a close race in the 2024 presidential election.

Allowing a single state to wield this much power over the federal government runs counter to broader federalism principles articulated by the Supreme Court. In our nation’s most important decision on the balance of power between the national government and the states, McCullough v. Maryland, Chief Justice John Marshall held that a single state could not impose a tax on the Bank of the United States. Marshall famously observed that “the power to tax is the power to destroy.”

Marshall may well have frowned upon single state officials deciding to eliminate candidates for federal office on their own initiative. The Supreme Court lent further support for this idea in United States Term Limits v. Thornton (1995), which held that states could not effectively add new qualifications for congressional candidates by barring long-time incumbents from appearing on the ballot. Writing for the majority, Justice Stevens argued that allowing states to add term limits as a qualification for their congressional elections conflicted with “the uniformity and national character [of Congress] that the framers sought to ensure.” Allowing state election officials to decide for themselves whether someone has incited or committed insurrection, without any meaningful trial or equivalent proceeding, would give states the ability to achieve what term limits forbid.

Congress Has Other Means of Enforcement
We are not arguing that Section 3 of the 14th Amendment lacks the means of enforcement (though not every official who has sworn an oath to uphold the Constitution has such enforcement power). Each branch of the federal government can honor Section 3 in the course of executing its unique constitutional functions. Article I of the Constitution allows Congress to sentence an impeached president not just to removal from office, but also disqualification from office in the future. Congress could pass a statute disqualifying named insurrectionists from office — we think this would not qualify as an unconstitutional bill of attainder — or set out criteria for judicial determination.

Using its enforcement power under Section 5 of the 14th Amendment, Congress could conceivably establish a specialized tribunal for the handling of insurrectionists. The president could detain suspected insurrectionists, subject ultimately to judicial review under a writ of habeas corpus, or prosecute them under the federal law of insurrection and seditious conspiracy. Federal courts will have the ultimate say, except in cases of unilateral congressional action, such as lifting a disqualification by supermajority votes, because they will make the final judgment on any prosecutions and executive detentions.

We are not apologists for Trump’s spreading of baseless claims of electoral fraud or his efforts to stop the electoral count on Jan. 6. But as with the weak charges brought by the special counsel, the effort to hold Trump accountable for his actions should not depend on a warping of our constitutional system. Prosecutors should charge him with insurrection if they can prove it and have that conviction sustained on appeal. Congress should disqualify Trump if it can agree he committed the crime. Ultimately, the American people will decide Trump’s responsibility for the events of Jan. 6, but at the ballot box in 2024’s nominating and general elections for president.
08-25-2023 01:16 PM
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olliebaba Offline
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Post: #103
RE: anyone watching the 'debate'?
281.1 million viewers? Wow, that's almost the whole population of the US. It shows that even the Demons were watching. But, do you think they will change their minds on which party they'll vote for? Yeppers, it'll still be the Demonic Party. My SIL who is a bonafide Demonic follower wasn't impressed with the debate but Schiff, my SIL is as stubborn as their mascot. I told her that she'd make a great lawyer or one that was always in jail for contempt of court. She (like Tanq) cannot be swayed even with facts. Oh well, can't change the world. I still believe that anyone who "considers" himself a Christian cannot also be a Democrat. They're going against everything the Bible tells us how to be.
08-25-2023 02:10 PM
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WKUYG Away
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Post: #104
RE: anyone watching the 'debate'?
(08-25-2023 08:05 AM)mlb Wrote:  
(08-24-2023 07:43 PM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote:  As Rush used to say “please show us the book ‘Great Moderates of History’.

Well... I'd say Bill Clinton falls under that category. Of course this will make many heads explode here... but

1. Worked with a Newt and a Republican congress to balance the budget.
2. Cut welfare benefits.
3. Was able to work with both sides of the aisle.

Since then the polarization of both parties has exploded.

Go back and watch Clinton talking about jobs

Go back and watch Clinton talking about the border

Go back and watch Clinton talking about welfare

Go back and watch Clinton talking about Americans first

You will hear words that are very similar to what got Trump elected. Its kind of strange that the numbers improved to record lows/highs under both Presidents. They also have something else in common....

the far right could not see past their beliefs to understand that America was better off under Clinton. The huge difference, Trump faced the whole democrat party and the never Trumpers. Like a lot of people I laid NAFT all on Clinton but after digging into it this was started and put into place under Bush. I will take a loud mouth mean tweeting or a President that like getting a blow job in the oval office for the rest of my life if the results match. I dont care about those things.








(This post was last modified: 08-25-2023 02:31 PM by WKUYG.)
08-25-2023 02:26 PM
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AdoptedMonarch Offline
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Post: #105
RE: anyone watching the 'debate'?
(08-25-2023 02:26 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  Go back and watch Clinton talking about jobs

Go back and watch Clinton talking about the border

Go back and watch Clinton talking about welfare

Go back and watch Clinton talking about Americans first

You will hear words that are very similar to what got Trump elected. Its kind of strange that the numbers improved to record lows/highs under both Presidents. They also have something else in common....

the far right could not see past their beliefs to understand that America was better off under Clinton. The huge difference, Trump faced the whole democrat party and the never Trumpers. Like a lot of people I laid NAFT all on Clinton but after digging into it this was started and put into place under Bush. I will take a loud mouth mean tweeting or a President that like getting a blow job in the oval office for the rest of my life if the results match. I dont care about those things.

I was not there in person, but was watching live from only two miles away when President Clinton came to the Norfolk Naval Base to deliver a memorial speech for the sailors of the USS Cole. It was among the greatest speeches I've ever heard, delivered expertly.

One selected portion:

To those who attacked them, we say: You will not find a safe harbor. We will find you, and justice will prevail. America will not stop standing guard for peace or freedom or stability in the Middle East and around the world.

And then .... nothing. That was Bill Clinton. All actor; no action.

Contrast that with Donald Trump. He takes action. No denying that. It is the implementation and follow through that never gets done. Build the wall? Nope. Control spending? Nope. Drain the swamp? Nope.

I would take either over Joe Biden. But from a results standpoint, neither ranks as anything better than a C-minus president - - at best.
(This post was last modified: 08-25-2023 02:45 PM by AdoptedMonarch.)
08-25-2023 02:45 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #106
RE: anyone watching the 'debate'?
(08-25-2023 02:26 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  I will take a loud mouth mean tweeting or a President that like getting a blow job in the oval office for the rest of my life if the results match. I don't care about those things.

Same here.
08-25-2023 02:46 PM
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Frank Grimes Offline
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Post: #107
RE: anyone watching the 'debate'?
(08-25-2023 08:05 AM)mlb Wrote:  
(08-24-2023 07:43 PM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote:  As Rush used to say “please show us the book ‘Great Moderates of History’.

Well... I'd say Bill Clinton falls under that category. Of course this will make many heads explode here... but

1. Worked with a Newt and a Republican congress to balance the budget.
2. Cut welfare benefits.
3. Was able to work with both sides of the aisle.

Since then the polarization of both parties has exploded.

I was debating mentioning him, but decided against it. Kudos for doing that in the wasps' nest lol. He's probably the last presidential candidate I would've voted for from the two major parties.
08-25-2023 09:43 PM
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UCGrad1992 Offline
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Post: #108
RE: anyone watching the 'debate'?
Poll numbers pre/post debate...

58/58 Trump
14/14 DeSantis
10/11 Ramaswamy
6/6 Pence
3/4 Christie
3/3 Haley, Scott
1/0 Hutchinson

Early Poll Numbers
08-26-2023 08:16 PM
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fsquid Offline
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Post: #109
RE: anyone watching the 'debate'?
(08-24-2023 07:43 PM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote:  
(08-24-2023 04:31 PM)Frank Grimes Wrote:  
(08-24-2023 04:22 PM)SUisBigEast4ever Wrote:  
(08-24-2023 04:15 PM)Frank Grimes Wrote:  
(08-24-2023 03:31 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  Can you tell me how you came to the conclusion the post you quoted was about religion? One other thing on the post you quoted do you agree with her "view"? To me it looks like something besides waiting for the facts was shaping her view

The religion thing was about being labeled a “RINO”. It shouldn’t be involved in anything political, yet candidates were out there last night talking about Jesus, walking with the Lord, etc. Pence especially was bad about it. Seems like anytime someone’s labeled a RINO, it’s because they aren’t letting religion influence their politics.

The quote about Bubba Wallace is irrelevant to me. She made a statement, turned out she was wrong. If we’re going to disqualify people for being wrong, that’s make the list for potential president pretty damn short.

Haley's statement was right along the same line of behavior of "Republicans" like Kinzinger, Liz Cheney, Bill Kristol, the Lincoln Project and every other fake republican out there who ends up siding and voting with Democrats (aka RINOS and really a Dem) on everything and even ends up with countless interviews smiling and giggling along with and bashing republicans on CNN, MSNBC etc.

I guess she's fooling you, but she's not fooling me. She's way more Democrat than she is Republican. Trump, Desantis and Ramaswamy are the only three I trust out of this group. Well Tim Scott too but I don't think he's quite ready to fight Democrats or the establishment RINOs like those three are.

“Fooling me” implies that I’m a Republican. I’m not, I’m a moderate/centrist. And her being in the middle doesn’t make her a Democrat, it makes her a moderate. If anything, I see her as a moderate Republican, which I guess to the far right, makes her a socialist pig.

As Rush used to say “please show us the book ‘Great Moderates of History’.
Damn shame what has happened to his show

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08-26-2023 08:53 PM
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Bronco'14 Offline
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Post: #110
RE: anyone watching the 'debate'?
Clinton is only a moderate compared to what the Left is today. That's what Progressiveism is.
(This post was last modified: 08-26-2023 10:15 PM by Bronco'14.)
08-26-2023 10:14 PM
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Post: #111
RE: anyone watching the 'debate'?
(08-26-2023 08:16 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  Poll numbers pre/post debate...

58/58 Trump
14/14 DeSantis
10/11 Ramaswamy
6/6 Pence
3/4 Christie
3/3 Haley, Scott
1/0 Hutchinson

Early Poll Numbers

Dummy Biden and his woke clown cabal get a second term because most conservatives are wired for WWE type populist sound byte politics. We are screwed and will deserve what we get.
08-26-2023 11:23 PM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #112
RE: anyone watching the 'debate'?
(08-26-2023 08:53 PM)fsquid Wrote:  
(08-24-2023 07:43 PM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote:  
(08-24-2023 04:31 PM)Frank Grimes Wrote:  
(08-24-2023 04:22 PM)SUisBigEast4ever Wrote:  
(08-24-2023 04:15 PM)Frank Grimes Wrote:  The religion thing was about being labeled a “RINO”. It shouldn’t be involved in anything political, yet candidates were out there last night talking about Jesus, walking with the Lord, etc. Pence especially was bad about it. Seems like anytime someone’s labeled a RINO, it’s because they aren’t letting religion influence their politics.

The quote about Bubba Wallace is irrelevant to me. She made a statement, turned out she was wrong. If we’re going to disqualify people for being wrong, that’s make the list for potential president pretty damn short.

Haley's statement was right along the same line of behavior of "Republicans" like Kinzinger, Liz Cheney, Bill Kristol, the Lincoln Project and every other fake republican out there who ends up siding and voting with Democrats (aka RINOS and really a Dem) on everything and even ends up with countless interviews smiling and giggling along with and bashing republicans on CNN, MSNBC etc.

I guess she's fooling you, but she's not fooling me. She's way more Democrat than she is Republican. Trump, Desantis and Ramaswamy are the only three I trust out of this group. Well Tim Scott too but I don't think he's quite ready to fight Democrats or the establishment RINOs like those three are.

“Fooling me” implies that I’m a Republican. I’m not, I’m a moderate/centrist. And her being in the middle doesn’t make her a Democrat, it makes her a moderate. If anything, I see her as a moderate Republican, which I guess to the far right, makes her a socialist pig.

As Rush used to say “please show us the book ‘Great Moderates of History’.
Damn shame what has happened to his show

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

Ive said at the time Ben Shapiro was the only person who might be able to take over his spot. Rush's great talent was he always had a unique take that was thoughtful and interesting. I always looked forward to what he had to say whenever any big news or interesting event transpired---and Rush rarely disappointed. While Shapiro lacks Rush's middle class midwestern background that formed the basis for his ability to connect to his audience, Shapiro is similar to Rush in his ability to distill a unique well considered point of view that almost always stands out among most conservative commentators. 04-cheers
(This post was last modified: 08-27-2023 12:57 AM by Attackcoog.)
08-27-2023 12:51 AM
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