Money is, of course, the first and foremost thing, but that's obvious. The thing that's driving the bus today is the thing that OU and UGA got started with their lawsuit 40 years ago; the confluence of big media company $$ and Football. Everything that we've seen happen to get us to our current point in the P54 can be traced back to this. PSU was shot down by the BE and joined the B1G.

The BE was always a basketball-first conference in a world where football was already starting to drive the bus decades ago. The Pac focused more and more of their collective resources on everything EXCEPT football, and they even didn't seem to emphasize MBB outside of 2 clear outliers. The ACC was always basketball-first, but they've done a fantastic job of morphing from basketball-first to much more balanced over the past few decades. They didn't do it fast enough, or, more likely they were just destined to fail b/c of their overlap with the SEC, but they saw the wave coming and they've endeavored mightily to get out ahead of it.

The B1G and SEC were always football first (nearly football-only for some of the SEC though not anymore). The one Conference that's been tough to figured for 25 years is the Big 12. They were like an unholy alliance of parts sewn together by Dr Frankenstein. A&M wanted the SEC. UT wanted the Pac. OU just wanted to win more titles. Nebraska and Missouri wanted the B1G. KU wanted more basketballs. It was a mess. And yet, after all the slicing and the dicing, it now looks more healthy than at any time other than perhaps the very beginning. What's their story? Look at everyone who's left and look at the replacements. The #1 factor on replacements has always been success on the field, and they've produced results. TCU. WV (solid reputation in basketball too). UCF. Cincy. BYU. UH has been solid recently in both FB and basketball, and they got the nod b/c geography was also very important for them. CU has been terrible in the anti-football Pac, but they were historically strong in their Big7/8/12 days on the gridiron. Utah is excellent in football. The Arizonas could use some work, but UArizona is at least excellent in MBB.

The Conferences that prioritize football the most, the B1G and SEC have been the biggest winners in the modern era. The Conferences that prioritized football the least, the BE and Pac, have been the biggest losers. The ACC and Big 12 both prioritize football aggressively and are still in the mix despite severe headwinds. Perhaps they both survive as equals, perhaps one rises above the other, perhaps they actually do merge down the road. It's all on the table.

As I was thinking about this earlier I thought: So What's Next? Continued dominance of football into the Forever? Basketball rising? Something else like WBB, Soccer, etc? I was in a near panic earlier and was ready to come on here and push for the SEC to go after UNC, Duke, and KU to hedge our bets, but that's probably not necessary. If basketball ends up growing in relative importance over time we can grab basketball schools that are also great in football from either the ACC or Big 12.

From the football discussion, it's worth considering: Were the BE and Pac doomed to fail, not by their ineptitude in tactics or their poor Commissioners, but rather by their overall focus on non-FB sports?

(08-10-2023 12:25 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  Money is, of course, the first and foremost thing, but that's obvious. The thing that's driving the bus today is the thing that OU and UGA got started with their lawsuit 40 years ago; the confluence of big media company $$ and Football. Everything that we've seen happen to get us to our current point in the P54 can be traced back to this. PSU was shot down by the BE and joined the B1G.

The BE was always a basketball-first conference in a world where football was already starting to drive the bus decades ago. The Pac focused more and more of their collective resources on everything EXCEPT football, and they even didn't seem to emphasize MBB outside of 2 clear outliers. The ACC was always basketball-first, but they've done a fantastic job of morphing from basketball-first to much more balanced over the past few decades. They didn't do it fast enough, or, more likely they were just destined to fail b/c of their overlap with the SEC, but they saw the wave coming and they've endeavored mightily to get out ahead of it.

The B1G and SEC were always football first (nearly football-only for some of the SEC though not anymore). The one Conference that's been tough to figured for 25 years is the Big 12. They were like an unholy alliance of parts sewn together by Dr Frankenstein. A&M wanted the SEC. UT wanted the Pac. OU just wanted to win more titles. Nebraska and Missouri wanted the B1G. KU wanted more basketballs. It was a mess. And yet, after all the slicing and the dicing, it now looks more healthy than at any time other than perhaps the very beginning. What's their story? Look at everyone who's left and look at the replacements. The #1 factor on replacements has always been success on the field, and they've produced results. TCU. WV (solid reputation in basketball too). UCF. Cincy. BYU. UH has been solid recently in both FB and basketball, and they got the nod b/c geography was also very important for them. CU has been terrible in the anti-football Pac, but they were historically strong in their Big7/8/12 days on the gridiron. Utah is excellent in football. The Arizonas could use some work, but UArizona is at least excellent in MBB.

The Conferences that prioritize football the most, the B1G and SEC have been the biggest winners in the modern era. The Conferences that prioritized football the least, the BE and Pac, have been the biggest losers. The ACC and Big 12 both prioritize football aggressively and are still in the mix despite severe headwinds. Perhaps they both survive as equals, perhaps one rises above the other, perhaps they actually do merge down the road. It's all on the table.

As I was thinking about this earlier I thought: So What's Next? Continued dominance of football into the Forever? Basketball rising? Something else like WBB, Soccer, etc? I was in a near panic earlier and was ready to come on here and push for the SEC to go after UNC, Duke, and KU to hedge our bets, but that's probably not necessary. If basketball ends up growing in relative importance over time we can grab basketball schools that are also great in football from either the ACC or Big 12.

From the football discussion, it's worth considering: Were the BE and Pac doomed to fail, not by their ineptitude in tactics or their poor Commissioners, but rather by their overall focus on non-FB sports?

The PAC got eaten up by the MWC and the ACC got gobbled by the AAC in performance. What helped the downfall of the power 5 schools. When you have schools in the P2 lose the the other teams? They want to take the ball and go home if they can't beat them. So, they want to create a separation again which would hurt them in the long run.

The Big East most certainly was doomed due to its basketball first (and basketball only pre-1990) attitude.

The PAC 8/10/12 is a little more complicated. For them it was a combination of not putting enough emphasis on football. 3 additional reasons cursed them:

1. geography—the ACC was a basketball first league but they were able to balance themselves because their were adjacent and in-footprint schools they were able to add to level things out. The PAC’s location on the West Coast didn’t avail them many options for growth that would improve football.

2. Demographic changes—West Coasters just aren’t as interested in college sports. Folks on the West Coast are less inclined to be interested in organized sports, and those who are seem to gravitate towards professional sports. The strong academic reputation of many PAC schools also meant a high number of international and out-of-state students and makes admission to lots of locals well out of reach. This leads to weak connections with the community.

3. Hubris—They were a snobby bunch and very sure of their own superiority. The league didn’t think they needed to make changes so they didn’t. Now they are paying for it.

(08-10-2023 03:59 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  The Big East most certainly was doomed due to its basketball first (and basketball only pre-1990) attitude.

The PAC 8/10/12 is a little more complicated. For them it was a combination of not putting enough emphasis on football. 3 additional reasons cursed them:

1. geography—the ACC was a basketball first league but they were able to balance themselves because their were adjacent and in-footprint schools they were able to add to level things out. The PAC’s location on the West Coast didn’t avail them many options for growth that would improve football.

2. Demographic changes—West Coasters just aren’t as interested in college sports. Folks on the West Coast are less inclined to be interested in organized sports, and those who are seem to gravitate towards professional sports. The strong academic reputation of many PAC schools also meant a high number of international and out-of-state students and makes admission to lots of locals well out of reach. This leads to weak connections with the community.

3. Hubris—They were a snobby bunch and very sure of their own superiority. The league didn’t think they needed to make changes so they didn’t. Now they are paying for it.

For number 2 is just more than that. When you start hiring Ivy League schools grads to be President and Athletics Directors, and they don't put much time in sports especially football where the programs have been dropped? You get people less interested in sports. That is what some California schools are thinking of is by trying to correct that to help get football and that be interested in the state again.

(08-10-2023 03:59 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  The Big East most certainly was doomed due to its basketball first (and basketball only pre-1990) attitude.

It was not "basketball only", just no football. Eastern independent status was a common thread among these schools and the varying levels of football competition a the Big East schools (three of what we would today call FBS, two in FCS, as many as three in Division III, one none at all) made a single football conference noncompetitive.

(08-10-2023 04:27 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(08-10-2023 03:59 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  The Big East most certainly was doomed due to its basketball first (and basketball only pre-1990) attitude.

It was not "basketball only", just no football. Eastern independent status was a common thread among these schools and the varying levels of football competition a the Big East schools (three of what we would today call FBS, two in FCS, as many as three in Division III, one none at all) made a single football conference noncompetitive.

The old BE was kind of a collection of misfit toys that happened to work very well together within their particular region of the country.

(08-10-2023 04:46 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  The old BE was kind of a collection of misfit toys that happened to work very well together within their particular region of the country.

They were not misfits, but the leading basketball program in their respective media markets, which is why it was Georgetown, Syracuse, Villanova, BC, and St. John's and not George Washington, St. Bonaventure, LaSalle, Northeastern, and Fordham.

(08-10-2023 12:25 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  Money is, of course, the first and foremost thing, but that's obvious. The thing that's driving the bus today is the thing that OU and UGA got started with their lawsuit 40 years ago; the confluence of big media company $$ and Football. Everything that we've seen happen to get us to our current point in the P54 can be traced back to this. PSU was shot down by the BE and joined the B1G.

The BE was always a basketball-first conference in a world where football was already starting to drive the bus decades ago. The Pac focused more and more of their collective resources on everything EXCEPT football, and they even didn't seem to emphasize MBB outside of 2 clear outliers. The ACC was always basketball-first, but they've done a fantastic job of morphing from basketball-first to much more balanced over the past few decades. They didn't do it fast enough, or, more likely they were just destined to fail b/c of their overlap with the SEC, but they saw the wave coming and they've endeavored mightily to get out ahead of it.

The B1G and SEC were always football first (nearly football-only for some of the SEC though not anymore). The one Conference that's been tough to figured for 25 years is the Big 12. They were like an unholy alliance of parts sewn together by Dr Frankenstein. A&M wanted the SEC. UT wanted the Pac. OU just wanted to win more titles. Nebraska and Missouri wanted the B1G. KU wanted more basketballs. It was a mess. And yet, after all the slicing and the dicing, it now looks more healthy than at any time other than perhaps the very beginning. What's their story? Look at everyone who's left and look at the replacements. The #1 factor on replacements has always been success on the field, and they've produced results. TCU. WV (solid reputation in basketball too). UCF. Cincy. BYU. UH has been solid recently in both FB and basketball, and they got the nod b/c geography was also very important for them. CU has been terrible in the anti-football Pac, but they were historically strong in their Big7/8/12 days on the gridiron. Utah is excellent in football. The Arizonas could use some work, but UArizona is at least excellent in MBB.

The Conferences that prioritize football the most, the B1G and SEC have been the biggest winners in the modern era. The Conferences that prioritized football the least, the BE and Pac, have been the biggest losers. The ACC and Big 12 both prioritize football aggressively and are still in the mix despite severe headwinds. Perhaps they both survive as equals, perhaps one rises above the other, perhaps they actually do merge down the road. It's all on the table.

As I was thinking about this earlier I thought: So What's Next? Continued dominance of football into the Forever? Basketball rising? Something else like WBB, Soccer, etc? I was in a near panic earlier and was ready to come on here and push for the SEC to go after UNC, Duke, and KU to hedge our bets, but that's probably not necessary. If basketball ends up growing in relative importance over time we can grab basketball schools that are also great in football from either the ACC or Big 12.

From the football discussion, it's worth considering: Were the BE and Pac doomed to fail, not by their ineptitude in tactics or their poor Commissioners, but rather by their overall focus on non-FB sports?

The average college football team makes more money than the next 35 college sports combined

(08-10-2023 12:25 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  Money is, of course, the first and foremost thing, but that's obvious. The thing that's driving the bus today is the thing that OU and UGA got started with their lawsuit 40 years ago; the confluence of big media company $$ and Football. Everything that we've seen happen to get us to our current point in the P54 can be traced back to this.

So it IS all the SEC's fault! I knew it!

(08-10-2023 05:22 PM)Cleanface Wrote:  

(08-10-2023 12:25 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  Money is, of course, the first and foremost thing, but that's obvious. The thing that's driving the bus today is the thing that OU and UGA got started with their lawsuit 40 years ago; the confluence of big media company $$ and Football. Everything that we've seen happen to get us to our current point in the P54 can be traced back to this.

So it IS all the SEC's fault! I knew it!

I think it's like a National Title, credit for the Title stays with the original Conference. So, half the Big 8 and half the SEC's fault.