It’s a place I have always considered to be one of the worst places on earth. Lots of people, almost no resources, and a horrible location.

Bangladesh. It has around half the population of the US and is only about the size of Iowa. 75% of it is below sea level and is regularly hit but massive monsoons that flood and wreck everything.

But in the last 30 years, life expectancy is up 180%, poverty has gone from 80% to 19%, 92% decrease in infant mortality, 100 fold reduction in people dying in monsoons.

In 30 years, GDP per capita went from 50% of Pakistan (from whom it gained independence) to 50% higher than Pakistan. In 2019, it also passed India, which is much more recognized as a fast growing, up and coming economy.

At independence, they lost 3 million people to war, including nearly all of most educated. 6 months after independence they lost 500,000 more to a massive monsoon. Life expectancy was only 26.

They have had weak governments and authoritarian governments. Democracy and dictatorship. Several military coups. One president had 21 assassination or coup attempts.

But through it all, they kept trying to work themselves into being able to build some sort of export economy. Textiles and garments are what they do mainly.

It’s a complicated story for a lot of reasons, but if anyone is curious, check out a YouTube series called Casual Scholar. If you like knowing about the world, you’ll most likely like the channel. I have only recently discovered it myself. It is over 30 minutes long, but it also easy to listen to without watching, just an fyi.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MIpdbDKMF1...BlY29ub215

I hope someone enjoys actually hearing a nice story about a desperately poor place, and some good change actually happening for people who need it.

It still has many, many problems and is far from being wealthy, but the last 30 years been called the greatest increase of quality of life indicators in history.

Interesting topic. I haven't watched the video but likely will. I love history and demographics.

Bangladesh, because it is extremely homogenous (meaning, they don't have lots of ethnicities) it doesn't struggle with internal conflicts like many impoverished countries. Also, their birth rate dropped significantly the last 30 years which makes it easier for families to prosper easier. Their birthrate is now below replacement level, which is good because their population density is not sustainable.

(07-09-2023 06:16 PM)WKUApollo Wrote:  Interesting topic. I haven't watched the video but likely will. I love history and demographics.

Bangladesh, because it is extremely homogenous (meaning, they don't have lots of ethnicities) it doesn't struggle with internal conflicts like many impoverished countries. Also, their birth rate dropped significantly the last 30 years which makes it easier for families to prosper easier. Their birthrate is now below replacement level, which is good because their population density is not sustainable.

Them you are who I posted for! And I appreciate your response.

I know a lot of people may not be interested in the topic enough to watch so I took the time to include the key points for them.

Another fact was that births per woman fell from 7 to 2 during this time, which is incredible.

Todor, watched this in its entirety prior to the Gold Cup Quarterfinal. My last data point on Bangladesh was the "human locusts" that would strip ships intentionally grounded in a shallow harbor and reduce the vessel to nothing but scrap metal to be reused elsewhere.

This pathway to improved economic conditions is interesting, and certainly not due to some great master plan by one individual or group. The glowing comments about NGO's run counter to my experience of how NGO's have failed in Haiti, so interesting to hear a different perspective.

It is good to hear things not common in our media, and perspectives that may include some different conclusions that what I would make. Regardless, I am pleased the Bangladeshi people appear to have the opportunity to further improve their everyday lives and become a viable trading partner to the rest of the world. Lot of people there, so if a middle class develops, it's game on to supply the convenience items we here take for granted.

Thanks for posting this link.

As a counter, considering the birth of Bangladesh in the 1970's, please consider viewing a similar analysis of Haiti. Certainly two contries moving is vastly different directions, for vastly different reasons, but gives some perspective of my suspicion of NGOs when given too much power.

(07-09-2023 08:18 PM)ODUsmitty Wrote:  Todor, watched this in its entirety prior to the Gold Cup Quarterfinal. My last data point on Bangladesh was the "human locusts" that would strip ships intentionally grounded in a shallow harbor and reduce the vessel to nothing but scrap metal to be reused elsewhere.

This pathway to improved economic conditions is interesting, and certainly not due to some great master plan by one individual or group. The glowing comments about NGO's run counter to my experience of how NGO's have failed in Haiti, so interesting to hear a different perspective.

It is good to hear things not common in our media, and perspectives that may include some different conclusions that what I would make. Regardless, I am pleased the Bangladeshi people appear to have the opportunity to further improve their everyday lives and become a viable trading partner to the rest of the world. Lot of people there, so if a middle class develops, it's game on to supply the convenience items we here take for granted.

Thanks for posting this link.

As a counter, considering the birth of Bangladesh in the 1970's, please consider viewing a similar analysis of Haiti. Certainly two contries moving is vastly different directions, for vastly different reasons, but gives some perspective of my suspicion of NGOs when given too much power.

Haiti was Ukraine before Ukraine was. Just ask the Clintons.

(07-09-2023 08:18 PM)ODUsmitty Wrote:  Todor, watched this in its entirety prior to the Gold Cup Quarterfinal. My last data point on Bangladesh was the "human locusts" that would strip ships intentionally grounded in a shallow harbor and reduce the vessel to nothing but scrap metal to be reused elsewhere.

This pathway to improved economic conditions is interesting, and certainly not due to some great master plan by one individual or group. The glowing comments about NGO's run counter to my experience of how NGO's have failed in Haiti, so interesting to hear a different perspective.

It is good to hear things not common in our media, and perspectives that may include some different conclusions that what I would make. Regardless, I am pleased the Bangladeshi people appear to have the opportunity to further improve their everyday lives and become a viable trading partner to the rest of the world. Lot of people there, so if a middle class develops, it's game on to supply the convenience items we here take for granted.

Thanks for posting this link.

As a counter, considering the birth of Bangladesh in the 1970's, please consider viewing a similar analysis of Haiti. Certainly two contries moving is vastly different directions, for vastly different reasons, but gives some perspective of my suspicion of NGOs when given too much power.

Thank you for your response. Yes, a lot of ship breaking has been done in Bangladesh. It’s outlawed in most countries for environmental reasons, but has to be done someone. Pakistan, India and China are the other historically active countries at it.

Interesting fact, a significant part of the the steel used in Bangladesh comes from the ships. They use every part of what they recover, so it’s a lot of free materials on top of the profit made from doing the work and the wages being paid.

This video was over the top about the role of NGO’s, for sure. I’m not sure what the motivation was. I’m sure there is some truth to it. At least some. Maybe the ones operating there was more honest and genuine than the ones helping in some other countries where they have more sinister motives than actually helping? I could not say.

But the amazing idea and implementation of Grameen Bank by Muhammad Yunus is one of the most amazing stories to happen to the very poor people ever.

For those that don’t know, this Bangladeshi noticed how tiny amounts of money stopping people from being much more productive and prosperous. He is the originator of the micro lending.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Yunus

He started making very small loans to entrepreneurs to buy equipment and supplies to help someone with a small business idea but didn’t have enough money to buy even the most essential items. He helped teach basic business skills and formed small groups to support each other. As they all repaid, he leant the money again. The banks were for the rich and didn’t deal in anything “micro”.

The video mentions him, but doesn’t do his contribution justice at all. He won a Nobel Prize and his methods have been emulated all over the world. His micro lending system has probably raised more people out of abject poverty permanently than any other program or idea.

The very small, and shared-responsibility model of lending is something I had not encountered previously, but for this culture certainly appears to have stimulated a significant rising-tide for many. Could this possibly be related to the asian stereotype of rule-following (moreso that other cultures) that led to the proper use and repayment of these micro-loans vs other cultures? Interesting stuff, and one just wonders if such a program is exportable or needs some serious tailoring based upon the potential failing countries that could benefit from such economic growth.

(07-10-2023 09:17 PM)Todor Wrote:  

(07-09-2023 08:18 PM)ODUsmitty Wrote:  Todor, watched this in its entirety prior to the Gold Cup Quarterfinal. My last data point on Bangladesh was the "human locusts" that would strip ships intentionally grounded in a shallow harbor and reduce the vessel to nothing but scrap metal to be reused elsewhere.

This pathway to improved economic conditions is interesting, and certainly not due to some great master plan by one individual or group. The glowing comments about NGO's run counter to my experience of how NGO's have failed in Haiti, so interesting to hear a different perspective.

It is good to hear things not common in our media, and perspectives that may include some different conclusions that what I would make. Regardless, I am pleased the Bangladeshi people appear to have the opportunity to further improve their everyday lives and become a viable trading partner to the rest of the world. Lot of people there, so if a middle class develops, it's game on to supply the convenience items we here take for granted.

Thanks for posting this link.

As a counter, considering the birth of Bangladesh in the 1970's, please consider viewing a similar analysis of Haiti. Certainly two contries moving is vastly different directions, for vastly different reasons, but gives some perspective of my suspicion of NGOs when given too much power.

Thank you for your response. Yes, a lot of ship breaking has been done in Bangladesh. It’s outlawed in most countries for environmental reasons, but has to be done someone. Pakistan, India and China are the other historically active countries at it.

Interesting fact, a significant part of the the steel used in Bangladesh comes from the ships. They use every part of what they recover, so it’s a lot of free materials on top of the profit made from doing the work and the wages being paid.

This video was over the top about the role of NGO’s, for sure. I’m not sure what the motivation was. I’m sure there is some truth to it. At least some. Maybe the ones operating there was more honest and genuine than the ones helping in some other countries where they have more sinister motives than actually helping? I could not say.

But the amazing idea and implementation of Grameen Bank by Muhammad Yunus is one of the most amazing stories to happen to the very poor people ever.

For those that don’t know, this Bangladeshi noticed how tiny amounts of money stopping people from being much more productive and prosperous. He is the originator of the micro lending.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Yunus

He started making very small loans to entrepreneurs to buy equipment and supplies to help someone with a small business idea but didn’t have enough money to buy even the most essential items. He helped teach basic business skills and formed small groups to support each other. As they all repaid, he leant the money again. The banks were for the rich and didn’t deal in anything “micro”.

The video mentions him, but doesn’t do his contribution justice at all. He won a Nobel Prize and his methods have been emulated all over the world. His micro lending system has probably raised more people out of abject poverty permanently than any other program or idea.

His story is incredible.

I have my (college) students read the chapter in his book called The Stoolmakers of Jobra Village. It's worth a quick read and you can find it here: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~iliano/courses/0...or_Ch4.pdf

Basically, for want of 22 cents of capital investment, the stool-maker was in debt bondage to the man that she sold her stools to (who both provided the materials each day and picked up the finished products). An entire village was in effective slavery, and it was ended with a $27 loan that Yunus cosigned for them.


It's amazing to me because now I have lots of Bangladeshi students at my school. They don't relate to that story at all because their parents were all the ones who had money to lend out.

I've decided this is what I'm going to think ...

"Bangladesh has made significant economic progress in recent decades, becoming one of the fastest-growing countries in the world. There are a number of reasons for this, including:

* **A robust demographic dividend.** Bangladesh has a young and growing population, which provides a large pool of potential workers. This demographic dividend has helped to drive economic growth, as more people enter the workforce and contribute to the economy.
* **Strong ready-made garment (RMG) exports.** The RMG sector is a major driver of economic growth in Bangladesh. The country is the second-largest exporter of RMG in the world, and this sector employs millions of people.
* **Resilient remittance inflows.** Remittances from Bangladeshis working abroad are another important source of income for the country. In 2021, remittances amounted to $25.3 billion, which is equivalent to about 10% of GDP.
* **Stable macroeconomic conditions.** Bangladesh has a relatively stable macroeconomic environment, which has helped to attract foreign investment and support economic growth.
* **Government policies.** The government of Bangladesh has implemented a number of policies that have helped to promote economic growth, such as investing in infrastructure, education, and healthcare.

Despite these positive developments, Bangladesh still faces a number of challenges, including:

* **Poverty.** While poverty has declined in recent years, it remains a major problem in Bangladesh. In 2021, the poverty rate was estimated to be 15.5%.
* **Inequality.** Inequality is also a problem in Bangladesh. The richest 10% of the population control about 40% of the country's wealth.
* **Climate change.** Bangladesh is a low-lying country that is vulnerable to the effects of climate change, such as rising sea levels and more extreme weather events.

Overall, Bangladesh has made significant economic progress in recent decades. However, the country still faces a number of challenges, which will need to be addressed in order to sustain its economic growth."

Here’s an article I ran across about microlending success stories. Some are more interesting than others, but it’s almost easy to lose sight of the fact that not every instance makes a fascinating story, but I try to step back and appreciated the difference in the people’s lives.

Microlending has exploded all over the world. Of course how micro it is depends on the country.

I can’t find the article now, as it’s quite old, but I was blown away by how much cell phones changed peoples lives too.

The best example was fisherman in West Africa. They go out in tiny boats, some gas powered some paddled by a small crew. They had a choice of a couple of different ports to go to to sell their fish. They have no way to preserve them so they have to sell them every day.

Well, without a phone, they never knew the price from either buyer. They had to pick one and go, because the gas or time to “shop around” at both would wipe out their profit. The buyers knew the fisherman were committed to sell once they arrived and it was a race to the bottom.

Now, a phone call can tell them everything they need to know and now the buyers have to compete for sellers instead of vice versa. The fisherman gained so much leverage with such a simple bit of tech.

The other example was a woman, a weaver, who walked 8 hours to a larger town to buy supplies. One day she arrived and the supplier was sick and not available. So she had to walk 8 hours home empty handed and had lost a day of work for no reason. Now, a cheap prepaid phone where the minutes or texts cost pennys, she can save herself a lot of time and trouble, but also become much more efficient. Again, so simple. And it’s amazing how much inefficiency comes from a simple lack of available communication.

(09-02-2023 03:57 AM)Todor Wrote:  I can’t find the article now, as it’s quite old, but I was blown away by how much cell phones changed peoples lives too.

The best example was fisherman in West Africa. They go out in tiny boats, some gas powered some paddled by a small crew. They had a choice of a couple of different ports to go to to sell their fish. They have no way to preserve them so they have to sell them every day.

Well, without a phone, they never knew the price from either buyer. They had to pick one and go, because the gas or time to “shop around” at both would wipe out their profit. The buyers knew the fisherman were committed to sell once they arrived and it was a race to the bottom.

Now, a phone call can tell them everything they need to know and now the buyers have to compete for sellers instead of vice versa. The fisherman gained so much leverage with such a simple bit of tech.

The other example was a woman, a weaver, who walked 8 hours to a larger town to buy supplies. One day she arrived and the supplier was sick and not available. So she had to walk 8 hours home empty handed and had lost a day of work for no reason. Now, a cheap prepaid phone where the minutes or texts cost pennys, she can save herself a lot of time and trouble, but also become much more efficient. Again, so simple. And it’s amazing how much inefficiency comes from a simple lack of available communication.

Just think of the utter chaos when our cell or internet services are cut off entirely, whether by design or by catastrophe.

(09-02-2023 05:24 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  Just think of the utter chaos when our cell or internet services are cut off entirely, whether by design or by catastrophe.

And just think of how little we are doing in advance to prevent or prepare for such an eventuality. We brought Apollo 13 back to earth safely with less computing power than a loaded iPhone has. We need to protect that power.

(07-10-2023 10:56 PM)smudge12 Wrote:  NPR had a story about the rise of Bangladesh a few weeks ago (which I've been lucky to visit, it's a great nation).

While microcredit is somewhat a factor, the biggest reason is the education, empowerment, and participation of women in the labor force.

At the beginning of the millennium, Bangladeshi women made up less than 10% of the labor force; today it's around 40%. About a third of women had a secondary education while today, it's almost 100%. These trends coincide with the rise of Bangladesh's GDP.

They've made a major investment into half the population, and the payoff is an increased tide of skilled labor that's raising all boats.

Sounds like something NPR would say.

What happens next is the women start complaining they were oppressed before they joined the labor force & still see that oppression. The die-hard feminists take control. Social conflict increases, country starts struggling again. The rise in GDP is a temporary high.

Any nation with that level of poverty can be dramatically improved, that is if the people really want it improved.

That is the reason Haiti and so many island and African nations never get anywhere. They are countries infected with corruption and tribal power mentality. Their reason for failure is the same reason we are in decline in many ways. Groups working in opposition destroy faster than individuals working for self reliance can build.

If people living in poverty really believe a better life is attainable by working hard to achieve it, I believe they will go for it. When they are told before they start that it can’t happen most will never try. When the ones who do try get blasted for how they made it work by those who didn’t even try, many quit. A country is made by individuals wanting to make a better life for themselves with the freedom to do it.