(02-15-2023 09:51 PM)MTBuc Wrote:  

(02-15-2023 09:43 PM)bucs77 Wrote:  

(02-15-2023 09:32 PM)MTBuc Wrote:  I’m not sure ETSU can afford to fire Oliver and pay him for 3 years (thanks again Scott for your excellent handling of contracts) but they can’t afford to allow this train wreck to keep going either.

I predicted in December that we might not hit 10 D1 wins this year. With only 3 games remaining it’s pretty much a certainty that we won’t.

I believe the actual contract states he would just be paid a one time amount that goes down each season.

I hope that’s the case because I can’t objectively see anything that suggests he can run a program or manage a game. As bad as this year has been it still might not be his basement.

Sander and Noland must find a way to extinguish this dumpster fire. No, another year of waiting and hoping will not work. Of course — it always boils down to money. Obviously in 20/20 hindsight, he should have NEVER been given more than a two year contract. Was Scott Carter, Jason Shay, and others working for ETSU or not? And, like I’ve said all along — ETSU as an institution ended up holding the proverbial bag as a result of some fools it had on payroll.

Catamounts complete rare season sweep of Bucs

CULLOWHEE, N.C. — Western Carolina hadn’t swept East Tennessee State on the basketball court in 38 years. That all changed Wednesday.

No coach would consider ETSU if they were only offered a 2 yr contract.

(02-16-2023 09:01 AM)Buc76 Wrote:  No coach would consider ETSU if they were only offered a 2 yr contract.

Why not? Many people work on one year contracts.

Buc76 is right, nobody would accept our job on a 2 year contract- but it is great that the structure of Oliver's deal is such that would allow us to get out of it. We only save $50,000 per year by waiting an additional year. From looking at media reports from that time, ETSU's payments to both Shay and Ezell should be complete later this Spring, and it looks like the Carter and Harris payouts have already been made.

(02-16-2023 09:43 AM)Buc66 Wrote:  

(02-16-2023 09:01 AM)Buc76 Wrote:  No coach would consider ETSU if they were only offered a 2 yr contract.

Why not? Many people work on one year contracts.

Because ETSU's competitors offer 4 or 5 year contracts. A 2 year contract is, in actuality, an interim coach. Are you suggesting ETSU hire an interim coach?

(02-16-2023 09:01 AM)Buc76 Wrote:  No coach would consider ETSU if they were only offered a 2 yr contract.

Bingo.
Unless there are fairly unusual extenuating circumstances, *minimum* would be 3 years, and generally, 4 is the miniumum.

(02-16-2023 10:20 AM)posterformerlyknownasthedoctor Wrote:  

(02-16-2023 09:01 AM)Buc76 Wrote:  No coach would consider ETSU if they were only offered a 2 yr contract.

Bingo.
Unless there are fairly unusual extenuating circumstances, *minimum* would be 3 years, and generally, 4 is the miniumum.

So, the coach could go 10-20 each year for four years, especially at a school that can’t afford his buy out, have a good investment broker, end his four year contract in good financial shape — compared to the average ticket purchasing working stiff — and go to his next assistant job for still a lot more than the average working stiff. Sounds like a deal you can’t turn down.

(02-16-2023 11:17 AM)Buc66 Wrote:  

(02-16-2023 10:20 AM)posterformerlyknownasthedoctor Wrote:  

(02-16-2023 09:01 AM)Buc76 Wrote:  No coach would consider ETSU if they were only offered a 2 yr contract.

Bingo.
Unless there are fairly unusual extenuating circumstances, *minimum* would be 3 years, and generally, 4 is the miniumum.

So, the coach could go 10-20 each year for four years, especially at a school that can’t afford his buy out, have a good investment broker, end his four year contract in good financial shape — compared to the average ticket purchasing working stiff — and go to his next assistant job for still a lot more than the average working stiff. Sounds like a deal you can’t turn down.

Well sure, that's just the way the market supply/demand works in that profession. Remember............those guys, almost without exception, have paid *serious* dues. bartow got to ride his father's coattails a little bit, as have others like Prossers, etc. But by and large, it's a very, very tough profession, and IF you should be so fortunate as to work your way up to the top (meaning becoming a HC at even a low-tier DI program), you've earned your chance at financial security. Most private businesses work that way, too, as you know.

You're welcome to disprove my view, by submitting counterexamples of those coaches who, without extenuating circumstances, signed 2-yr. head coaching deals. A situation like shay, *could* have been, as BucDoctor states, called "interim coach", but that doesn't make ANYBODY happy - except *maybe* the school - and after the lackluster results from hiring a coach with no solid future, that wouldn't even be true. Players wouldn't want it; coach(es) wouldn't want it; etc. "Yes, Billy Joe, I'd like you to move here from Wyoming to play ball for me. I can't guarantee I'll be here for more than 2 years, but I might be."

It's just the way the market works, for better AND worse. Ya pays your nickel and ya takes your chances. If somebody wanted to hire, say, Sonny Smith, or Coach K, or even an Eddie D. (age 64) - somebody in the twilight of their career, who really was only doing it for the fun/grins/be near family/whatever..............then that could be a possibility. But I'd call that "extenuating circumstances". And don't forget............most of these guys have agents. A decent agent ain't gonna go for a 2-yr. HC contract.

The "average working stiff", if he/she has plugged away diligently, with success and perseverance, in their chosen field, then they're likely doing ok financially. If, yes, they're astute, investment-wise, and don't waste their money. Not all working stiffs rise to be a company CEO, or even a VP, but neither to all coaches become HCs. Only a small minority.

Things don't work this way, but....................I would wager a decent amount of money, that if this situation were submitted to an unbiased arbitrator, just as a gedankenexperiment (just look it up, those who need to)............considering Oliver's late arrival on the scene thus hampering any reasonable recruiting efforts, and considering the really significant rash of injuries (more than the usual), considering the lack of ETSU having any NIL program in place until what's upcoming, and considering the kneeling incident and political machinations that blew that up big-time, that overwhelmingly Oliver would be given at least one more year to see what's what. It's almost crazy to think otherwise.

But that's not the environment we have here. We've got the braintrust of Sander/Noland, and guess what(??) -- Sander, at very least, knows more what he's doing in this regard than ANY one of us posting messages here. Somebody (may have been me???) coined the phrase "In Forbes we trust" back when that was relevant. I (think it was me) since adapted it to "In Sander we trust", and I think that's the best we can do here, as fans and stakeholders. Take a chill pill (like Oliver apparently has), and let it play out. The wheels are turning; have been turning; and will continue to turn.

I will say that I do feel confident that Sander will do what's best. If he thinks it's worth it to have him stay, I trust him. I also trust him to find the right person for the job if he goes that route.

(02-16-2023 01:36 PM)ETSUfan1 Wrote:  I will say that I do feel confident that Sander will do what's best. If he thinks it's worth it to have him stay, I trust him. I also trust him to find the right person for the job if he goes that route.

Exactly.

(02-16-2023 01:36 PM)ETSUfan1 Wrote:  I will say that I do feel confident that Sander will do what's best. If he thinks it's worth it to have him stay, I trust him. I also trust him to find the right person for the job if he goes that route.

Yes this.

Veteran, respected coach who mans the fort for however long it takes to find a successor. Thinking of Coach Torbush here or Cliff Ellis at Coastal Carolina.[/b]

(02-16-2023 02:00 PM)bucfan81 Wrote:  

(02-16-2023 01:36 PM)ETSUfan1 Wrote:  I will say that I do feel confident that Sander will do what's best. If he thinks it's worth it to have him stay, I trust him. I also trust him to find the right person for the job if he goes that route.

Yes this.

Right now he has to hire a volleyball coach.

The problems facing the ETSU Athlectic dept are the same problems facing nearly all FCS programs, money. The SoCon, Big South the OVC, even the CAA all are losing or have lost most of their best teams. This has made it even harder to get TV exposure, recruit players, attract fans and business
support. FCS as we knew it 2 years ago is dying. FCS is now a feeder program for FBS. If an FCS player developes into a possible FBS player, they are hitting the portal. You have FCS players quitting in mid season to avoid injuries.They are preparing to enter the portal.

ETSU is recruiting the leftovers in the portal or a high school kid. FCS is not going back to the good old days, it's going to get worse unless the powers to be change the portal rules and put a stop to all this NIL money.

You can complain about coaches, schedules and recuiting but ETSU gets to choose from what's left after all the FBS schools take what they want.

It should be remembered that Forbes left us catastrophically depleted, and at the very worst time. I would’ve done the exact same thing, so I’m not throwing shade, but our success is due him and our failure is due, in no small part, to him. Sander is the only one of the bunch who has nothing to personally gain from this, he only wants the team to have success.

It should be remembered that Forbes left us catastrophically depleted, and at the very worst time. I would’ve done the exact same thing, so I’m not throwing shade, but our success is due him and our failure is due, in no small part, to him. Sander is the only one of the bunch who has nothing to personally gain from this, he only wants the team to have success.
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Depleted??? Give me a break. The day Forbes left for Wake, the ETSU roster consisted of returning starters Bo Hodges; Pat Good; and Daivien Williamson. All 3 of those players scored over 1000+ points in their college career's. In addition the roster consisted of Vonnie Patterson; Damari Monsanto; Ladarius Brewer; Octavian Corley, and Charlie Weber. Forbes also signed Silas Adheke, Ty Brewer, and Jalen Johnson before he took the Wake job. Hodges, Good, Monsanto; and Brewer were All SoCon players, and Williamson made the SoCon All Tournament Team. We were not catastrophically depleted, we were loaded and we had a team that would have won the league again.

(02-16-2023 05:53 PM)ETSU4Life Wrote:  It should be remembered that Forbes left us catastrophically depleted, and at the very worst time. I would’ve done the exact same thing, so I’m not throwing shade, but our success is due him and our failure is due, in no small part, to him. Sander is the only one of the bunch who has nothing to personally gain from this, he only wants the team to have success.

Depleted??? Give me a break. The day Forbes left for Wake, the ETSU roster consisted of returning starters Bo Hodges; Pat Good; and Daivien Williamson. All 3 of those players scored over 1000+ points in their college career's. In addition the roster consisted of Vonnie Patterson; Damari Monsanto; Ladarius Brewer; Octavian Corley, and Charlie Weber. Forbes also signed Silas Adheke, Ty Brewer, and Jalen Johnson before he took the Wake job. Hodges, Good, Monsanto; and Brewer were All SoCon players, and Williamson made the SoCon All Tournament Team. We were not catastrophically depleted, we were loaded and we had a team that would have won the league again.
[/quote]

Do you live in an alternate reality? Forbes took all contributors with him, the rest scattered specifically because he was gone. Ofc those players were still on the roster “the day Forbes left” because it was… the day Forbes left. Within a couple weeks it was empty, specifically because he either took them, or because so many contributors left that the remaining talent saw the writing on the wall.

As far as contacts go, ETSU can easily offer any coach a 4 or 5 year deal as long as the buyout is not ridiculous. In my opinion, at a school like ETSU, the buyout to fire a coach without cause, should only be 1 extra year of salary, and not every year left on the contract when the coach is fired. Meaning, if the coach fails, ETSU can part ways with the coach, and would only be liable to pay 1 extra year, and not the all the year's remaining on the contract, say 2, 3, or 4. This allows ETSU to hire a HC and give him security to recruit and it gives ETSU security if the coach is a failure. In addition, start the salary low, and if the coach wins, increase it. In my opinion, Shay and Oliver were paid way too much money to start out with no head coaching experience. Oliver was paid $325 + 50K stipend = 375K; Shay got 250K + 50K stipend = 300K, and I believe Forbes got 180K + 20K stipend = 200K, when Sander hired him in 2015. Obviously, Forbes made more and more money each year at ETSU as his teams won.

We should expect our coach to keep us competitive in the Southern Conference. That is the expectation of Doc Sander. The team and program is in the present not 2 or 3 years ago. We will see how the remainder of the season plays out but to say the coaches are under achieving in an under statement. I cannot believe that Dr. Noland and Doc will allow this failure to continue.