(02-10-2023 11:38 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  SMU is way too small to be in a P% conference. I just don't see that they have 8 of the 10 votes to add them.

If you are talking student population do these three ring a bell?
Stanford
Duke
Wake Forest

(02-10-2023 12:23 PM)Poster Wrote:  

(02-10-2023 12:17 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(02-10-2023 11:43 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(02-10-2023 11:38 AM)GTFletch Wrote:  John Canzano Feb 8th 2023:

What you need to know:

• The Pac-12 is on a mission to replace the football inventory lost by the UCLA/USC defection to the Big Ten. That’s 23 combined football games and a pile of men’s basketball games.

• Adding San Diego State would get the Pac-12 back into Southern California and regain 1.13 million television households.

• Kliavkoff met in December with officials at San Diego State, a conference source told me. A 45-minute meeting between the sides took place in the time around Oregon’s Dec. 28 appearance in the Holiday Bowl, I’m told.

• Adding SMU would bring the Dallas TV market with it. That’s 2.96 million TV homes.

• SMU + San Diego State = 4.1 million combined TV households. That will be attractive to media partners. But after the dust settles, the Pac-12 would still have ~2.6 million fewer television homes than it did before the departures of USC/UCLA.

• The Big Ten will have 33.9 million TV homes after USC and UCLA join. The ACC has 28.3 million and the SEC’s looming expansion (Texas & OU) will raise that conference to 22.4 million TV homes. The Big 12 will swell to 15.1 million homes after its oncoming expansion.

• Would the Pac-12 expand beyond 12 members? It’s possible, depending on how motivated the conference is to add extra inventory and TV homes. The problem becomes finding no-brainer candidates who fit the geography and the conference’s academic profile.

• I’m told, per a source, that one of the media-rights partners the Pac-12 is engaged with is looking for “some tonnage.” The unnamed entity would like to beef up the inventory. This sounds a lot like Amazon, which needs content for the sports app it floated a while ago.

• ESPN and Amazon are the likely Pac-12 media-rights partners. FOX is out. I think that the ramp-up in expansion talk this week signals that the conference is wrapping up the media-rights negotiation. I expect the Pac-12 to have something to talk about before the conference basketball tournaments in Las Vegas next month.

• Fresno State has had “short interactions” with the Pac-12, per a well-placed conference source. No Kliavkoff visit yet, though. The Central Valley of California includes 2.3 million TV homes. That’s attractive. But Fresno’s close proximity to the Bay Area may make Stanford and Cal uneasy.

• Boise State doesn’t sit in a big TV market. There are only 517,000 television households in the entire state of Idaho. But TV partners (FOX, CBS) have a late-night love affair with that blue football field. ESPN may like the Broncos, too, but I wonder if some Pac-12 schools who compete vs. BSU for recruits would veto this one.

• UNLV is an interesting candidate for the Pac-12. The TV market only includes 757,840 households, but it’s a rapidly growing region that includes an NFL stadium and a sea of potential gaming sponsorship opportunities. If adding more football inventory is the Pac-12’s biggest mission, the Rebels become a candidate.

• Academic profile will be a consideration for any addition. The presidents and chancellors in the Pac-12 have never viewed UNLV, Fresno State and Boise State as academic peers. Would they start now? This feels like an obstacle for all three. SMU and San Diego State fit much better.

• I wonder if the Big 12 would look hard at Fresno State and Boise State as future expansion additions. Doing so, would add 2.8 million total TV homes and get Brett Yormark’s conference into that “fourth window” (Pacific Time Zone) he likes to talk about. I think both schools would prefer to be in the Pac-12, but the Big 12 isn’t a bad fallback for either. Keep an eye out there.

Link
https://www.johncanzano.com/p/canzano-pa...n-ramps-up

Fresno State, UNLV and Boise State are peers with the likes of SMU, San Diego State, Oregon State and Washington State. If academics is the case? SMU and San Diego State would not be invited either.

That's not true. If we're going by undergrad rankings, SMU would be the 4th highest ranked Pac-12 school after Stanford, Cal, and Washington. San Diego State is tied in the US News rankings with Oregon State and higher ranked than Washington State. All of those schools are ranked MUCH higher than Fresno State, UNLV and Boise State.

SMU isn't a research powerhouse like how the Pac-12 has looked at candidates in the past, but the issue is that there isn't a research powerhouse out there available that brings enough athletic value. (Rice has the academic side, but not the athletic side.) In essence, the Pac-12 used to apply Big Ten-level academic standards, so under that framework, SMU wouldn't fit. However, my belief is that going forward, the Pac-12 is going to apply ACC-level academic standards (where they're as open to highly-ranked undergraduate schools as much as highly-ranked graduate programs), in which case, SMU pretty perfectly fits that academic profile. If the Pac-12 is serious about wanting to expand, then they can't apply Big Ten academic standards anymore... but applying ACC academic standards definitely brings up some viable candidates that would be conceivably acceptable to schools like Stanford, Cal and Washington. (Everyone needs to remember that Washington is every bit as snobby on academics as Stanford and Cal.)

Research is a big factor for the Big Ten. The ACC and the PAC mainly just care about university ranking.


SMU is academically ranked in the 70s. That’s higher than most PAC schools, and SMU is usually perceived as being a better school than the 70s. (I was pretty surprised they aren’t ranked higher than that myself.)

The only PAC schools ranked higher academically than SMU are Stanford, Cal and Washington. SDSU's ranking is in line with OSU and WSU.

(02-13-2023 05:13 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  SMU is ranked down towards Boise State. They do not have the research or heavily into research which is why they are an R2, and not an R1.

Boise State is academically ranked over 200, SMU 70. You must be joking? Even WSU and OSU are in the mid 100s, Boise is not even close to SMU.

(02-13-2023 05:25 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  

(02-13-2023 05:13 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  SMU is ranked down towards Boise State. They do not have the research or heavily into research which is why they are an R2, and not an R1.

If you mean SMU is closer to Boise St than Harvard, MIT, and Stanford are, then you're absolutely correct. If you mean SMU and Boise St are academic peers, then you're quite mistaken.

SMU is a lot closer to Harvard, MIT and Stanford than they are to Boise State. The rankings are easy to find. Is SMU an academic powerhouse? No, but being in the top 100 is much better than being outside the top 200. If SMU are brought in to the PAC, they become the 4th highest ranked school academically. If Boise is brought in, they are immediately the bottom school academically.

(02-15-2023 12:29 PM)jacksfan29! Wrote:  

(02-13-2023 05:25 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  

(02-13-2023 05:13 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  SMU is ranked down towards Boise State. They do not have the research or heavily into research which is why they are an R2, and not an R1.

If you mean SMU is closer to Boise St than Harvard, MIT, and Stanford are, then you're absolutely correct. If you mean SMU and Boise St are academic peers, then you're quite mistaken.

SMU is a lot closer to Harvard, MIT and Stanford than they are to Boise State. The rankings are easy to find. Is SMU an academic powerhouse? No, but being in the top 100 is much better than being outside the top 200. If SMU are brought in to the PAC, they become the 4th highest ranked school academically. If Boise is brought in, they are immediately the bottom school academically.

You misunderstood my comment. Rephrase: Boise St is further from those schools than it is to SMU.

(02-15-2023 12:26 PM)jacksfan29! Wrote:  

(02-13-2023 05:13 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  SMU is ranked down towards Boise State. They do not have the research or heavily into research which is why they are an R2, and not an R1.

Boise State is academically ranked over 200, SMU 70. You must be joking? Even WSU and OSU are in the mid 100s, Boise is not even close to SMU.

David State is not big on cross checking his sources of information. None of the widely available rankings are a "perfect measure", so it bears checking multiple sources.

In the Times Higher Education / Wall Street Journal rankings, SMU is 94th in the nation, Boise State is over 600.

Utah is 113rd, Arizona 131st, Arizona State 214th, Washington State 238th, SDSU 251st, Oregon State 310th.

If you come into a conference right in the middle of the academic rankings, that's "good enough", and the question turns to "what else do you have", and what else SMU would have is (1) they offer an opportunity to come play in a good market, even if not a lot of that market cares about PAC football and (2) they would make a 12th school if the situation dictates taking SDSU and the media partners dictate a 9 conference game schedule.

Maybe DavidSt meant SMU is not highly ranked (like Boise) for research. That seems to be true.

However, and clearly, the university is very highly ranked in many metrics: including endowment ($2B), teaching focus, grad rate, percentage of professors with a Ph.D. (84%), etc.

(02-13-2023 05:06 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(02-13-2023 01:30 PM)Aztecgolfer Wrote:  

(02-13-2023 09:56 AM)SMUstang Wrote:  

(02-13-2023 09:26 AM)RUScarlets Wrote:  I think if SMU is passed on, BSU goes into the drivers seat, followed by FSU. It sets them up nicely to become the MWC 2.0. At some point, Berkley has to swallow the "academics is not end all be all" pill and add TV value. I do think the value is still there for BSU, but it needs to be all-sports, obviously.

Not just Berkley, but most, if not all, of the other college presidents in the Pac-12. Personally, being biased, I can't see them passing on SMU in favor of any other choice.

You can add SDSU to that list as well. One of the reasons we like the PAC offer over the B12 one is because of academics.

The overwhelming reason for SDSU to the Pac is geography. Travel up and down the west coast, maybe inland a little bit to WSU or Arizona or CU every now and then? That's ok. Travel all over the freakin country but no games in California or out west at all? That would be my absolute last choice if I was SDSU.

No matter where we end up, there is no worse conference for travel than the MWC nor will we have to play games at 7,000 feet or even 5,000 ft for that matter.

Example, football travel to Wyoming. Fly into Denver. Get on a bus for a 2 hour ride up a winding mountain road. Get to Wyoming where they have signs posted showing you are now at 7,220 ft while asking "How's your oxygen?" Yeah, we ain't gonna miss that at all.

(02-13-2023 08:21 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Boise State's endowment is $156 million. It was around $45 million like 2015. They gain over $100 million in 7 years time. Their research is growing much faster, and they could go past San Diego State soon.

$156 million is nothing.

NAU's is $225 Million

NAU has more students, both undergrad and graduate.

NAU is ranked top 600 world, 128-146 in Shanghai Rankings, which are heavy in Research and Science, same as San Diego State.

Boise isn't even ranked.

NAU is ranked 178 with 69 Million annual research grants. Boise is 212 with 46M. San Diego State is 164 with $107 Million.

Boise is so far behind San Diego State in all key metrics

And no, they aren't going to go by SDSU anytime, at all.

(02-13-2023 08:21 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Boise State's endowment is $156 million. It was around $45 million like 2015. They gain over $100 million in 7 years time. Their research is growing much faster, and they could go past San Diego State soon.

Really? SDSU's endowment is over $350M and they did some $164M in research last year. SDSU's budget is over $1B, double that of Boise St. BSU has an endowment of $156M and did some $61M in research in 2021. You have a ways to go to catch up and with our campus expansion focusing on increasing our research capabilities we expect to continue to see our research budget to increase significantly each year. It helps to be in a high tech area and be aligned with Qualcomm.

(02-13-2023 08:58 PM)pablowow Wrote:  

(02-12-2023 03:20 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  As media markets and endowments go, Rice is a better long term play than Tulane.

Rice is a good add Tulane is a better add .. but they’re both good for. Reconfigured PAC…

Tulane is a national school
Tulane is ranked 44
AAU
1.2 million TV sets New Orleans
Top per capita recruiting market
Would be only the 2nd ..power conference team in LA
14,500 students(bigger school than TCU, SMU, Rice
Central time zone
Destination city
Football over 120 yrs
Cotton bowl champs
2023 ranked 9 final poll
OVER 1.6 Billion endowment (pretty safe to say we have a few bucks)

We once recruited a kid out of New Orleans named Marshall Faulk. Tulane paired with someone like Rice or UTSA (which I think has great potential) would be a bold move by the PAC. Might not happen this round, however.

(02-14-2023 08:09 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(02-13-2023 09:25 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(02-13-2023 08:21 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Boise State's endowment is $156 million. It was around $45 million like 2015. They gain over $100 million in 7 years time. Their research is growing much faster, and they could go past San Diego State soon.

SDSU's endowment was $191m in 2015. By 2019, it was $353m. I'd say that they're pulling away from Boise St.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Diego_...ite_note-1
-2019 FY included in University information on the right of page

https://newscenter.sdsu.edu/sdsu_newscen...?sid=75697
-2015 endowment amount included in article

One of the reasons why Boise State's endowment went up was that they went into a joint partnership with University of Washington to send pre-med students to Seattle. That got their medical science kicked going including some PH'ds in that field. I think that is why PAC 12 have been interested in Boise State even though they are lower down. Once they join the PAC 12? Their endownment will start getting better, new research fields be added and all that. Like 4 years ago, the research field was not really there, but now, there are a whole lot of fields in science research going on. More than Idaho and Idaho State.

You are getting the cart behind the horse here. SDSU has been working on its academic standings for decades now, which is why we will be a R1 research institution in the next cycle. It didn't happen overnight and we are lucky to partner with schools like UCSD and UCI for research and awarding of Phds. We did this with the knowledge that it would also make us more attractive to a P5 conference, mainly the PAC. Atop that is the fact that since 1997 starting with the opening of Viejas arena, SDSU has spent more than $450M building both sporting venues as well as administration offices for their athletics program.

All that work is now looking like it will pay off.

(02-15-2023 01:50 PM)Aztecgolfer Wrote:  

(02-13-2023 08:58 PM)pablowow Wrote:  

(02-12-2023 03:20 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  As media markets and endowments go, Rice is a better long term play than Tulane.

Rice is a good add Tulane is a better add .. but they’re both good for. Reconfigured PAC…

Tulane is a national school
Tulane is ranked 44
AAU
1.2 million TV sets New Orleans
Top per capita recruiting market
Would be only the 2nd ..power conference team in LA
14,500 students(bigger school than TCU, SMU, Rice
Central time zone
Destination city
Football over 120 yrs
Cotton bowl champs
2023 ranked 9 final poll
OVER 1.6 Billion endowment (pretty safe to say we have a few bucks)

We once recruited a kid out of New Orleans named Marshall Faulk. Tulane paired with someone like Rice or UTSA (which I think has great potential) would be a bold move by the PAC. Might not happen this round, however.

I agree - down the road I would love to see the PAC add Tulane, Rice and maybe even UTSA. That is a great list of media markets! Rice needs to make major athletic committment - they certainly have the mony - $8B endowment!

(02-13-2023 04:02 PM)jgkojak Wrote:  I think the PAC has to add SDSU or they are out of SoCal. If they're out of SoCal, the Arizona schools have additional reason to join the B12 - who I'm sure would take SDSU if that lures the AZs.

UNLV makes more sense for the B12 than the Pac.

The B12 isn't as worried about academics, and having both Vegas and Orlando as B12 destination cities (the #1 and #2 tourist destinations) would be a big deal, along with the sponsorships etc

UNLV, if given access to P5 and NIL/Transfer portal, has the potential to get real good real fast, especially in basketball where they already have a history.

UNLV BB just lost at home to a very depleted Wyoming team.

(02-15-2023 01:15 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  Maybe DavidSt meant SMU is not highly ranked (like Boise) for research. That seems to be true.

However, and clearly, the university is very highly ranked in many metrics: including endowment ($2B), teaching focus, grad rate, percentage of professors with a Ph.D. (84%), etc.

That is true in a general sense, but SMU still has higher research status than Boise State ... it is in the 700-800 tier in the AWRU ranking of world universities, and Boise State doesn't make the list of 1000 world universities.

But top research Universities happily take SMU graduates as research students, they know that SMU is a top 100 in the US in their undergrad and grad level education .. and Boise State is also primarily a teaching focused institution that is far less highly regarded on that front.