(12-12-2022 03:13 PM)SouthernConfBoy Wrote:  It can't be stressed enough that the divisional format was designed to maximize happiness for Duke, UNC, and UVa. From recruiting territory, to away trips, to traveling fan bases. It was all done to make them happy. Miami's collapse was not expected though.

The divisional set up was one of the final straws for MD and they didn't like VT's treatment as the prodigal son.

I don't think Duke, UVa, or UNC realized just how pissed off MD's System President was with those three so when Kirwan got the chance he made the move. (If anyone tells you MD moved for the money, they are just telling you they really don't know anything about the situation).

It's a underrated truism that almost never does a school change conferences simply for money. Usually it's at least partly because they are p.o. at the old conference -- and may as well grab the money on the way out!

(12-12-2022 04:32 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(12-12-2022 03:13 PM)SouthernConfBoy Wrote:  It can't be stressed enough that the divisional format was designed to maximize happiness for Duke, UNC, and UVa. From recruiting territory, to away trips, to traveling fan bases. It was all done to make them happy. Miami's collapse was not expected though.

The divisional set up was one of the final straws for MD and they didn't like VT's treatment as the prodigal son.

I don't think Duke, UVa, or UNC realized just how pissed off MD's System President was with those three so when Kirwan got the chance he made the move. (If anyone tells you MD moved for the money, they are just telling you they really don't know anything about the situation).

It's a underrated truism that almost never does a school change conferences simply for money. Usually it's at least partly because they are p.o. at the old conference -- and may as well grab the money on the way out!

The problems started 50 years ago.

In 1970 the ptb in Annapolis decide to combine universities in Maryland using the UNC System model. The twist though was to take professional programs at UMCP and move them to Baltimore. It was a Baltimore MD power play but south of RFK Stadium no one noticed.

This changed the nature of good ole Maryland State and it moved some of the power structure out of DC. Baltimore and DC are very different places but MD became more exposed to politics between DC and Baltimore.

That same year a MD man became the ACC’s commissioner and he kept the spot until he died a year after Len Bias. That means in 1986/87 MD lost Len Bias, their Commissioner (Bob James), their AD (Dick Dull a home grown boy), and John Slaughter as Chancellor. Slaughter was an engineering nerd from Kansas way of California. The response to Bias' death was to gut football and basketball by firing Lefty and not pledging support to Bobby Ross.

So, after 60 plus years having a direct hand in running the Southern Conference and ACC, MD wakes up one morning to find they are running nothing. UNC and Duke has outmaneuvered them to bring UVa into the triumvirate.

As this is happening UMCP is undergoing some of the damndest racial, gender, political strife you can imagine with the gender crap being worse than than the other two. The Southern ACC schools don't get it because it's more like a Philly/Baltimore set of issues than an Atlanta/Charlotte set of issues.

Rascals take control of the donation money and keep athletic donation away from the athletics department. Everything is then made fungible and no one knows where the foundation is sending the money. Then as MD plays ball with expansion their reward is to be separated from Miami, NC State, Duke, UNC, etc.

MD also got to watch VT’s treatment - the deference given to them as if they had never been tossed out. This pissed them off.

MD had been instrumental in getting rid of VT back in 1953.

To save face in 2010, MD had planned to dump every athletic issue that was really a higher up administrative issue on Debbie Yow. Then NC State screws them there and hires her giving her a platform and the ability to defend against MD. That’s when Sweaty Gary, Fat Fridge, John Feinstein at the WaPo open up.

The real core issue was that the MD system president wanted to take control of every MD institution and put them under UMCP. He learned the value of that at Ohio State where he had been President. He was a B10 man as was Wallace Loh. This is why MD ratted out WF’s skullduggery to the Big 10 – a parting shot to UNC, UVa, Duke, and NC State.

MD knew that the numbers being presented to the UMCP Board was future year Big 10 revenue numbers against 18 month old ACC numbers. MD knew that travel costs and other costs would skyrocket. This is why 10 years onward the net annual increase for MD is less than $10 million a year. Their football stadium is half full sometimes less. They took out a B10 funded loan that will be paid back through deductions in distributions. It is not yet paid.

So always remember, MD did not leave for the money.

That’s just the excuse they gave. Like a young lady claiming she has a headache in order to politely leave the party early. If you want to research any aspect of this on your own, start with the Baltimore Sun. The Sun researches it’s UM stories unlike the WaPo who writes fan fiction for UMCP.

One more point that some might not know. The football weak spot at MD, inside the Terrapin Club was Penn State football tickets, and UNC, Duke, and NC State basketball tickets. The ACC had already culled UNC and Duke from a guaranteed appearance in MD and NC State destroyed their program in 1991-92. That left Penn State as the last big ticket in the Terrapin Club and the Big 10 had the ability to cause PSU to ratchet back the annual beat down.

I only learned this last part over the summer but it's so simple to see once you look for it.

(12-12-2022 05:22 PM)SouthernConfBoy Wrote:  

(12-12-2022 04:32 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(12-12-2022 03:13 PM)SouthernConfBoy Wrote:  It can't be stressed enough that the divisional format was designed to maximize happiness for Duke, UNC, and UVa. From recruiting territory, to away trips, to traveling fan bases. It was all done to make them happy. Miami's collapse was not expected though.

The divisional set up was one of the final straws for MD and they didn't like VT's treatment as the prodigal son.

I don't think Duke, UVa, or UNC realized just how pissed off MD's System President was with those three so when Kirwan got the chance he made the move. (If anyone tells you MD moved for the money, they are just telling you they really don't know anything about the situation).

It's a underrated truism that almost never does a school change conferences simply for money. Usually it's at least partly because they are p.o. at the old conference -- and may as well grab the money on the way out!

The problems started 50 years ago.

In 1970 the ptb in Annapolis decide to combine universities in Maryland using the UNC System model. The twist though was to take professional programs at UMCP and move them to Baltimore. It was a Baltimore MD power play but south of RFK Stadium no one noticed.

This changed the nature of good ole Maryland State and it moved some of the power structure out of DC. Baltimore and DC are very different places but MD became more exposed to politics between DC and Baltimore.

That same year a MD man became the ACC’s commissioner and he kept the spot until he died a year after Len Bias. That means in 1986/87 MD lost Len Bias, their Commissioner (Bob James), their AD (Dick Dull a home grown boy), and John Slaughter as Chancellor. Slaughter was an engineering nerd from Kansas way of California. The response to Bias' death was to gut football and basketball by firing Lefty and not pledging support to Bobby Ross.

So, after 60 plus years having a direct hand in running the Southern Conference and ACC, MD wakes up one morning to find they are running nothing. UNC and Duke has outmaneuvered them to bring UVa into the triumvirate.

As this is happening UMCP is undergoing some of the damndest racial, gender, political strife you can imagine with the gender crap being worse than than the other two. The Southern ACC schools don't get it because it's more like a Philly/Baltimore set of issues than an Atlanta/Charlotte set of issues.

Rascals take control of the donation money and keep athletic donation away from the athletics department. Everything is then made fungible and no one knows where the foundation is sending the money. Then as MD plays ball with expansion their reward is to be separated from Miami, NC State, Duke, UNC, etc.

MD also got to watch VT’s treatment - the deference given to them as if they had never been tossed out. This pissed them off.

MD had been instrumental in getting rid of VT back in 1953.

To save face in 2010, MD had planned to dump every athletic issue that was really a higher up administrative issue on Debbie Yow. Then NC State screws them there and hires her giving her a platform and the ability to defend against MD. That’s when Sweaty Gary, Fat Fridge, John Feinstein at the WaPo open up.

The real core issue was that the MD system president wanted to take control of every MD institution and put them under UMCP. He learned the value of that at Ohio State where he had been President. He was a B10 man as was Wallace Loh. This is why MD ratted out WF’s skullduggery to the Big 10 – a parting shot to UNC, UVa, Duke, and NC State.

MD knew that the numbers being presented to the UMCP Board was future year Big 10 revenue numbers against 18 month old ACC numbers. MD knew that travel costs and other costs would skyrocket. This is why 10 years onward the net annual increase for MD is less than $10 million a year. Their football stadium is half full sometimes less. They took out a B10 funded loan that will be paid back through deductions in distributions. It is not yet paid.

So always remember, MD did not leave for the money.

That’s just the excuse they gave. Like a young lady claiming she has a headache in order to politely leave the party early. If you want to research any aspect of this on your own, start with the Baltimore Sun. The Sun researches it’s UM stories unlike the WaPo who writes fan fiction for UMCP.

One more point that some might not know. The football weak spot at MD, inside the Terrapin Club was Penn State football tickets, and UNC, Duke, and NC State basketball tickets. The ACC had already culled UNC and Duke from a guaranteed appearance in MD and NC State destroyed their program in 1991-92. That left Penn State as the last big ticket in the Terrapin Club and the Big 10 had the ability to cause PSU to ratchet back the annual beat down.

I only learned this last part over the summer but it's so simple to see once you look for it.

I'm just curious, but what is University of Maryland's (College Park) beef with Virginia Tech? I went to tech from 2003-2006 and now live in Maryland so I am quit interested. Thank you.

The original beef was over College Football when UMCP had the number one program in the nation under Tatum. The small schools put forward a bowl ban in 1950 in order to address the nature of the game and to respond the massive cheating scandal at Bill and Mary. Clemson and MD played in bowls and were banned from SoCon games the next year. VT held the chair at the time of the sanctions. MD in particular was livid with VT and West Va for supporting the small school position. Now at the time VT was under pressure from the ptb in Richmond to do something about football at W&M. UVa is not a conference member having left in 1936 when the small schools were added. West Virginia was added as the 17 member in December of 49 and that's when things went to Hell.

MD and Clemson were hell bent to blackball VT and WVa and they succeeded. They had already partnered with South Carolina and UVa to have UVa vote in the league for voting purposes before the first ACC meeting was even officially held. When Carolina made the motion to admit VT in 53 it died 4-4. When Carolina made the motion to add WVa, it died for lack of a second. See Va wanted to be the only Va school in the ACC. That was their deal with MD.

Time marches forward and VT and MD patch things up enough to even share an Equine Vet program. MD does not oppose adding VT in 2003. But what happened was after the divisional split VT was treated as the prodigal son and MD was treated like an outcast. That was the bad blood - that started in 05 or there about. MD had expected VT to have some time of servitude like GT back in 79, but they underestimated the backroom and business cross connections between VT and UVa, WF, NC State, UNC, etc., etc.

The divisional split screwed MD with regard to Miami, Duke, GT, and UNC.

Based on profile, Maryland should have been in the Coastal and VaTech in the Atlantic. That said, I’m not convinced that Maryland didn’t enjoy annual bouts with NC State, Clemson, and FSU. Plus they kept the UVa game.

The football firster types really needed to be packed into one division; a sub conference in a conference. It could have looked like this:

FSU - UM
Clem - Wake
GT - Duke
VT. - UVA
NCSU - UNC
BC - UMd

Obviously UM is a football firster school, but access to Florida is important for everybody.

(12-13-2022 05:31 PM)SouthernConfBoy Wrote:  The original beef was over College Football when UMCP had the number one program in the nation under Tatum. The small schools put forward a bowl ban in 1950 in order to address the nature of the game and to respond the massive cheating scandal at Bill and Mary. Clemson and MD played in bowls and were banned from SoCon games the next year. VT held the chair at the time of the sanctions. MD in particular was livid with VT and West Va for supporting the small school position. Now at the time VT was under pressure from the ptb in Richmond to do something about football at W&M. UVa is not a conference member having left in 1936 when the small schools were added. West Virginia was added as the 17 member in December of 49 and that's when things went to Hell.

MD and Clemson were hell bent to blackball VT and WVa and they succeeded. They had already partnered with South Carolina and UVa to have UVa vote in the league for voting purposes before the first ACC meeting was even officially held. When Carolina made the motion to admit VT in 53 it died 4-4. When Carolina made the motion to add WVa, it died for lack of a second. See Va wanted to be the only Va school in the ACC. That was their deal with MD.

Time marches forward and VT and MD patch things up enough to even share an Equine Vet program. MD does not oppose adding VT in 2003. But what happened was after the divisional split VT was treated as the prodigal son and MD was treated like an outcast. That was the bad blood - that started in 05 or there about. MD had expected VT to have some time of servitude like GT back in 79, but they underestimated the backroom and business cross connections between VT and UVa, WF, NC State, UNC, etc., etc.

The divisional split screwed MD with regard to Miami, Duke, GT, and UNC.

Hmm, interesting. Thank you for sharing. Always interested in history. Merry Christmas to you and everyone else!

(12-13-2022 10:29 PM)Garrettabc Wrote:  The football firster types really needed to be packed into one division; a sub conference in a conference. It could have looked like this:

FSU - UM
Clem - Wake
GT - Duke
VT. - UVA
NCSU - UNC
BC - UMd

Obviously UM is a football firster school, but access to Florida is important for everybody.

The following would have been relatively stable and fair:

GT/Duke/UVa/UNC/NCSU/Clemson
MD/BC/VT/Miami/WF/FSU

The SEC and Big 10 make it just fine without full time access to Florida and it would be easily cured via games with USF and UCF, but that's all history now. I think the future is better with three divisions of 5 or 6 and a wild card in a four school playoff than 14 or so and just two schools playing for the title.

(12-13-2022 11:12 PM)JAE_VT Wrote:  

(12-13-2022 05:31 PM)SouthernConfBoy Wrote:  The original beef was over College Football when UMCP had the number one program in the nation under Tatum. The small schools put forward a bowl ban in 1950 in order to address the nature of the game and to respond the massive cheating scandal at Bill and Mary. Clemson and MD played in bowls and were banned from SoCon games the next year. VT held the chair at the time of the sanctions. MD in particular was livid with VT and West Va for supporting the small school position. Now at the time VT was under pressure from the ptb in Richmond to do something about football at W&M. UVa is not a conference member having left in 1936 when the small schools were added. West Virginia was added as the 17 member in December of 49 and that's when things went to Hell.

MD and Clemson were hell bent to blackball VT and WVa and they succeeded. They had already partnered with South Carolina and UVa to have UVa vote in the league for voting purposes before the first ACC meeting was even officially held. When Carolina made the motion to admit VT in 53 it died 4-4. When Carolina made the motion to add WVa, it died for lack of a second. See Va wanted to be the only Va school in the ACC. That was their deal with MD.

Time marches forward and VT and MD patch things up enough to even share an Equine Vet program. MD does not oppose adding VT in 2003. But what happened was after the divisional split VT was treated as the prodigal son and MD was treated like an outcast. That was the bad blood - that started in 05 or there about. MD had expected VT to have some time of servitude like GT back in 79, but they underestimated the backroom and business cross connections between VT and UVa, WF, NC State, UNC, etc., etc.

The divisional split screwed MD with regard to Miami, Duke, GT, and UNC.

Hmm, interesting. Thank you for sharing. Always interested in history. Merry Christmas to you and everyone else!

When the ACC pulled out of the SoCon in 53/54, they did not do so assuming that they would stay at no more than 8 schools for nearly 40 years. That was a byproduct of the ACC Tournament and Duke's 800 SAT Rule from 1962.


One more thought on VT and MD. MD hates everything west of Hagerstown. It's not the elevation per se but the transition from Tidewater Atlantic culture to Southern and Appalachian culture is jarring. You will cross the "sweet tea" and fluffy biscuit lines. MD gives UVa a pass that they just don't give to VT.

Maryland and Clemson hurt themselves by keeping VT and WVU out. That allowed UNC/Duke/UVa to form a power block that ruled the ACC for decades. Had they let bygones be bygones and admitted the two football-first schools right from the start, things might've been a LOT different. In that case, I think the ACC looks like this:



Here's my logic:
https://accfootballrx.blogspot.com/2018/...-2017.html

UVa, Dook and UNC have always acted as one. So it was a given they would be in the same division. GT and Dook have played since pre-dirt so throw them in there too. WF and Clemson have both played NCSU forever so those three had to be together.

Scrapping or even mixing up divisions needed to be done a long time ago in order to allow the better brands to play each other more often. I believe this would have helped TV revenue. We lost those games in order to "preserve" the old divisional configuration and we can thank the Coastal division for that.

(12-12-2022 05:22 PM)SouthernConfBoy Wrote:  

(12-12-2022 04:32 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(12-12-2022 03:13 PM)SouthernConfBoy Wrote:  It can't be stressed enough that the divisional format was designed to maximize happiness for Duke, UNC, and UVa. From recruiting territory, to away trips, to traveling fan bases. It was all done to make them happy. Miami's collapse was not expected though.

The divisional set up was one of the final straws for MD and they didn't like VT's treatment as the prodigal son.

I don't think Duke, UVa, or UNC realized just how pissed off MD's System President was with those three so when Kirwan got the chance he made the move. (If anyone tells you MD moved for the money, they are just telling you they really don't know anything about the situation).

It's a underrated truism that almost never does a school change conferences simply for money. Usually it's at least partly because they are p.o. at the old conference -- and may as well grab the money on the way out!

The problems started 50 years ago.

In 1970 the ptb in Annapolis decide to combine universities in Maryland using the UNC System model. The twist though was to take professional programs at UMCP and move them to Baltimore. It was a Baltimore MD power play but south of RFK Stadium no one noticed.

This changed the nature of good ole Maryland State and it moved some of the power structure out of DC. Baltimore and DC are very different places but MD became more exposed to politics between DC and Baltimore.

That same year a MD man became the ACC’s commissioner and he kept the spot until he died a year after Len Bias. That means in 1986/87 MD lost Len Bias, their Commissioner (Bob James), their AD (Dick Dull a home grown boy), and John Slaughter as Chancellor. Slaughter was an engineering nerd from Kansas way of California. The response to Bias' death was to gut football and basketball by firing Lefty and not pledging support to Bobby Ross.

So, after 60 plus years having a direct hand in running the Southern Conference and ACC, MD wakes up one morning to find they are running nothing. UNC and Duke has outmaneuvered them to bring UVa into the triumvirate.

As this is happening UMCP is undergoing some of the damndest racial, gender, political strife you can imagine with the gender crap being worse than than the other two. The Southern ACC schools don't get it because it's more like a Philly/Baltimore set of issues than an Atlanta/Charlotte set of issues.

Rascals take control of the donation money and keep athletic donation away from the athletics department. Everything is then made fungible and no one knows where the foundation is sending the money. Then as MD plays ball with expansion their reward is to be separated from Miami, NC State, Duke, UNC, etc.

MD also got to watch VT’s treatment - the deference given to them as if they had never been tossed out. This pissed them off.

MD had been instrumental in getting rid of VT back in 1953.

To save face in 2010, MD had planned to dump every athletic issue that was really a higher up administrative issue on Debbie Yow. Then NC State screws them there and hires her giving her a platform and the ability to defend against MD. That’s when Sweaty Gary, Fat Fridge, John Feinstein at the WaPo open up.

The real core issue was that the MD system president wanted to take control of every MD institution and put them under UMCP. He learned the value of that at Ohio State where he had been President. He was a B10 man as was Wallace Loh. This is why MD ratted out WF’s skullduggery to the Big 10 – a parting shot to UNC, UVa, Duke, and NC State.

MD knew that the numbers being presented to the UMCP Board was future year Big 10 revenue numbers against 18 month old ACC numbers. MD knew that travel costs and other costs would skyrocket. This is why 10 years onward the net annual increase for MD is less than $10 million a year. Their football stadium is half full sometimes less. They took out a B10 funded loan that will be paid back through deductions in distributions. It is not yet paid.

So always remember, MD did not leave for the money.

That’s just the excuse they gave. Like a young lady claiming she has a headache in order to politely leave the party early. If you want to research any aspect of this on your own, start with the Baltimore Sun. The Sun researches it’s UM stories unlike the WaPo who writes fan fiction for UMCP.

One more point that some might not know. The football weak spot at MD, inside the Terrapin Club was Penn State football tickets, and UNC, Duke, and NC State basketball tickets. The ACC had already culled UNC and Duke from a guaranteed appearance in MD and NC State destroyed their program in 1991-92. That left Penn State as the last big ticket in the Terrapin Club and the Big 10 had the ability to cause PSU to ratchet back the annual beat down.

I only learned this last part over the summer but it's so simple to see once you look for it.

Sounds like mostly a bunch of unforced errors at MD if you ask me.