(09-02-2022 09:37 PM)Big 12 fan too Wrote:  A genuine Frankenstein conference birthed from a corporate marriage.
....
Just a forced conference that never worked, hence the need for 20 year handcuff

b12 so jelly u jam

FWIW, I do not believe ESPN will do anything to boost ACC pay beyond what the terms of the current contract call for. I do not think the fear of ACC teams jumping ship in 2036 is any kind of motivator in 2022.

I mean, what if the shoe was on the other foot, and ESPN had signed a deal to pay the ACC $50m per school per year for 20 years, then it turned out that the viewers weren't there and the conference was worth maybe $20m per school per year? Would anyone expect the ACC to go to ESPN and offer to take a pay cut to $20m a year just because? I do not think that likely. I know if I was an ACC fan, I'd be "hey, they signed the deal, so they better keep paying us that $50m a year every year, period".

Just MO.

Maybe around 2032, when the ACC deal is a few years from expiring, it will make sense for ESPN to offer to sweeten the pot. But not IMO before then.

(09-02-2022 11:51 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  FWIW, I do not believe ESPN will do anything to boost ACC pay beyond what the terms of the current contract call for. I do not think the fear of ACC teams jumping ship in 2036 is any kind of motivator in 2022.

I mean, what if the shoe was on the other foot, and ESPN had signed a deal to pay the ACC $50m per school per year for 20 years, then it turned out that the viewers weren't there and the conference was worth maybe $20m per school per year? Would anyone expect the ACC to go to ESPN and offer to take a pay cut to $20m a year just because? I do not think that likely. I know if I was an ACC fan, I'd be "hey, they signed the deal, so they better keep paying us that $50m a year every year, period".

Just MO.

Maybe around 2032, when the ACC deal is a few years from expiring, it will make sense for ESPN to offer to sweeten the pot. But not IMO before then.

If that happened, with the values that dramatically different (over half), I'm fairly sure espn would invite ACC to a negotiation table, or a courtroom...

besides, I would not be surprised if the deal already has some clause which addresses that.

(09-02-2022 08:32 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(09-02-2022 08:22 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  1. WV, Cinci and Memphis don't move the needle for the ACC, at least not in the right direction.
2. WV and Cinci have no incentive to join the ACC as they can reasonably expect to get paid more just by staying in the big 12. Maybe close to parity today, but by 2025 or 2030 they're likely to be paid quite a bit more, actually. Oh, and there's no P2 trying to steal the top 2-6 teams from the big 12, so they're well-situated to thrive in the coming chaos, whether it happens no, 2036, or any time in between.

1. I don't know how you would know that, but I think they are at least revenue neutral
2. This is absurdly false, but there's no reason for me to argue the point because it will be apparent soon enough when media rights offers start coming in (or rather, not).

We can disagree on 1, and we will know on 2 soon enough. I might be wrong, but I don't think so.

Cinci and memphis were both g5 until last week, and memphis still is. They were passed up by the big12 when they were picking up 4 schools, too. If they were worth more than $36m/yr then you'd think the big 12 would have added them.

As far as WV, the ACC passed on them a decade ago, and I'm unsure how 10 years worth of below average (for WV) football would have somehow boosted their value so much that they would increase the avg for the ACC. But, it's possible that they're a bit above avg, enough to bring Cinci and Memphis + WV up to the average. I think that's the top end though, which is why I didn't say that they would definitely DECREASE the value but rather that if they did move the needle, it would be in the wrong direction.

You should not worry about the ACC though, we want you guys instead of that other school from Virginia in the SEC , anyway.

(09-02-2022 09:12 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(09-02-2022 08:39 PM)Big 12 fan too Wrote:  The ACC is a corporate marriage of two conferences that couldn’t survive...

FALSE. Every team in the ACC has significant history with the others since at least the early 90's - and at least half of the schools have been closely affiliated since the 1930's.

I documented the connections in "Previous Affiliations: 1894-2013"

You know, the Big XII is a marriage of the Big 8 and the Southwest Conference, and it's lost WAY more members than the ACC... are you sure you want to throw stones?

It's ok man, you know you belong with us. You don't have to argue with those big 12 guys anymore, come let me show you how nice the Southeast is (and Southwest, too, whatever).

(09-02-2022 08:33 PM)Herdforlife Wrote:  

(09-02-2022 08:22 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(09-02-2022 07:38 PM)Skyhawk Wrote:  

(09-02-2022 07:32 PM)Herdforlife Wrote:  One way the ACC becomes the P3.. they add Notre Dame and WVU as full time members.

1. With the news of the expanded playoff, it is now incentivized to be one of the four highest ranked conference champions, because they get a bye in the first round of the playoff. My belief is Notre Dame’s top two desires are one scheduling autonomy and two access to the national championship. IMHO if they joined the BIG10 they would never win the conference, but if a round one bye was really important to them then they could become full members of the ACC. They’d have a real chance at winning the conference every year and it would make them one the four best conference champions. Just a thought to chew on.

2. WVU a legit brand, but also as was seen in the Pitt/WVU game, there is value in owning rivalry games. I think you add at least two legit rivalries with WVU.

As others have mentioned, #1 is a price they're apparently happy to pay. so they're likely staying independent.

I agree with#2. WV, plus Cin and Memphis, should be priority adds to the ACC.

Edit - My 1000th post : )

1. WV, Cinci and Memphis don't move the needle for the ACC, at least not in the right direction.
2. WV and Cinci have no incentive to join the ACC as they can reasonably expect to get paid more just by staying in the big 12. Maybe close to parity today, but by 2025 or 2030 they're likely to be paid quite a bit more, actually. Oh, and there's no P2 trying to steal the top 2-6 teams from the big 12, so they're well-situated to thrive in the coming chaos, whether it happens no, 2036, or any time in between.

Lol I’m sorry, but that’s just not true. Although I agree Cinci and Memphis are insignificant in football.

1. WVU is a top 30-40 brand. That moves the needle, not to mention the rivalry games the conference would then own from that.
2. Maybe the money isn’t a big incentive, but the ACC is where WVU wants to be, they settled on the Big12 when they didn’t get an ACC invite after the big East fell apart.

I don't think that WVU is top 40, if they were then the ACC wouldn't have passed on them a decade ago, regardless of academics. However, I wasn't saying that WVU by themselves would be <= the ACC average, but rather the combination of Cinci/WV/Memphis would be <= the ACC average. And tbh, I don't see how that's a particularly controversial topic.

As far was why I don't think WVU wants to go to the ACC now, they know that the ACC is steaming rapidly towards the sort of upheaval that they just experienced in the big 12. They don't want to be the Colorado of 2036, begging to get a spot back in the big 12, when the P2 raids the ACC.

(09-03-2022 01:23 AM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(09-02-2022 08:33 PM)Herdforlife Wrote:  

(09-02-2022 08:22 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(09-02-2022 07:38 PM)Skyhawk Wrote:  

(09-02-2022 07:32 PM)Herdforlife Wrote:  One way the ACC becomes the P3.. they add Notre Dame and WVU as full time members.

1. With the news of the expanded playoff, it is now incentivized to be one of the four highest ranked conference champions, because they get a bye in the first round of the playoff. My belief is Notre Dame’s top two desires are one scheduling autonomy and two access to the national championship. IMHO if they joined the BIG10 they would never win the conference, but if a round one bye was really important to them then they could become full members of the ACC. They’d have a real chance at winning the conference every year and it would make them one the four best conference champions. Just a thought to chew on.

2. WVU a legit brand, but also as was seen in the Pitt/WVU game, there is value in owning rivalry games. I think you add at least two legit rivalries with WVU.

As others have mentioned, #1 is a price they're apparently happy to pay. so they're likely staying independent.

I agree with#2. WV, plus Cin and Memphis, should be priority adds to the ACC.

Edit - My 1000th post : )

1. WV, Cinci and Memphis don't move the needle for the ACC, at least not in the right direction.
2. WV and Cinci have no incentive to join the ACC as they can reasonably expect to get paid more just by staying in the big 12. Maybe close to parity today, but by 2025 or 2030 they're likely to be paid quite a bit more, actually. Oh, and there's no P2 trying to steal the top 2-6 teams from the big 12, so they're well-situated to thrive in the coming chaos, whether it happens no, 2036, or any time in between.

Lol I’m sorry, but that’s just not true. Although I agree Cinci and Memphis are insignificant in football.

1. WVU is a top 30-40 brand. That moves the needle, not to mention the rivalry games the conference would then own from that.
2. Maybe the money isn’t a big incentive, but the ACC is where WVU wants to be, they settled on the Big12 when they didn’t get an ACC invite after the big East fell apart.

I don't think that WVU is top 40, if they were then the ACC wouldn't have passed on them a decade ago, regardless of academics. However, I wasn't saying that WVU by themselves would be <= the ACC average, but rather the combination of Cinci/WV/Memphis would be <= the ACC average. And tbh, I don't see how that's a particularly controversial topic.

As far was why I don't think WVU wants to go to the ACC now, they know that the ACC is steaming rapidly towards the sort of upheaval that they just experienced in the big 12. They don't want to be the Colorado of 2036, begging to get a spot back in the big 12, when the P2 raids the ACC.

What makes them not a top 40 brand? Understand performance isn’t the only thing you judge on, your whole conference can’t be undefeated. I think there’s value as they’re 31st in attendance with 56k and 30th in tv viewership with 1.27m. I didn’t mention Cincy/Memphis, WVU and Notre Dame is my dream, but it is what it is, a dream.

I do think the ACC passed on them because they simply had too many teams already and for the most part I believe the ACC and BIG10 had held room for Notre Dame in farther expansion. If you could get Notre Dame then WVU would be the second team.

Unlike the PAC12 and BIG12 I think ESPN has an incentive to protect the ACC from being pouched. I think if they got Notre Dame they would be competitive with the P2, they would then have 3 of the to 15 brands.

(09-02-2022 09:37 PM)Big 12 fan too Wrote:  

(09-02-2022 09:12 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(09-02-2022 08:39 PM)Big 12 fan too Wrote:  The ACC is a corporate marriage of two conferences that couldn’t survive...

FALSE. Every team in the ACC has significant history with the others since at least the early 90's - and at least half of the schools have been closely affiliated since the 1930's.

I documented the connections in "Previous Affiliations: 1894-2013"

You know, the Big XII is a marriage of the Big 8 and the Southwest Conference, and it's lost WAY more members than the ACC... are you sure you want to throw stones?

Not false.

A genuine Frankenstein conference birthed from a corporate marriage.

That’s a reason why the conference championship game was an afterthought. Wake-Pitt has no historical context. Just a forced conference that never worked, hence the need for 20 year handcuff

Is this another Troy T Boy account?

You’ve got a sad obsession with the ACC and wanting it to break apart. Doesn’t bother with facts, proof, reason, etc. Just another pathetic troll agenda.

ACC signed that deal because they wanted the ACCN, that's the only way the would have gotten it with ESPN. ESPN Exec Mcmanus said it takes a lot of time to recoop the cost of ramping up a network and recooping the cost of doing so and making it profitable, it had to be a long term deal for it to work. Those schools are stuck with a deal that seem very good one at the time. Hindsight is 20/20. ACC schools now having buyers remorse they just need to suck it up, and find other ways to generate additional revenue, if possible.

(09-02-2022 11:02 PM)Gitanole Wrote:  

(09-02-2022 09:37 PM)Big 12 fan too Wrote:  A genuine Frankenstein conference birthed from a corporate marriage.
....
Just a forced conference that never worked, hence the need for 20 year handcuff

b12 so jelly u jam

The Big 12 was the same way. It’s why those two were the first vulnerable to consolidation- they were products of it.

Two solutions to last decade’s consolidation- LHN and long GOR. Both bandaids will have roughly the same expiration Imo, and I’m sure Nole fans hope that’s true

(09-03-2022 06:06 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(09-02-2022 09:37 PM)Big 12 fan too Wrote:  

(09-02-2022 09:12 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(09-02-2022 08:39 PM)Big 12 fan too Wrote:  The ACC is a corporate marriage of two conferences that couldn’t survive...

FALSE. Every team in the ACC has significant history with the others since at least the early 90's - and at least half of the schools have been closely affiliated since the 1930's.

I documented the connections in "Previous Affiliations: 1894-2013"

You know, the Big XII is a marriage of the Big 8 and the Southwest Conference, and it's lost WAY more members than the ACC... are you sure you want to throw stones?

Not false.

A genuine Frankenstein conference birthed from a corporate marriage.

That’s a reason why the conference championship game was an afterthought. Wake-Pitt has no historical context. Just a forced conference that never worked, hence the need for 20 year handcuff

Is this another Troy T Boy account?

You’ve got a sad obsession with the ACC and wanting it to break apart. Doesn’t bother with facts, proof, reason, etc. Just another pathetic troll agenda.

I have an obsession with realignment, which isn’t an obsession in this space. Consolidation is the central theme of realignment and it won’t spare the ACC as we know it.

It’s understandable your insecurities have interpreted that as being about being about the ACC. It’s not

(09-03-2022 06:06 AM)esayem Wrote:  Is this another Troy T Boy account?

You’ve got a sad obsession with the ACC and wanting it to break apart.

One man's sad obsession is another's noble cause

(09-03-2022 07:22 AM)Big 12 fan too Wrote:  

(09-03-2022 06:06 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(09-02-2022 09:37 PM)Big 12 fan too Wrote:  

(09-02-2022 09:12 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(09-02-2022 08:39 PM)Big 12 fan too Wrote:  The ACC is a corporate marriage of two conferences that couldn’t survive...

FALSE. Every team in the ACC has significant history with the others since at least the early 90's - and at least half of the schools have been closely affiliated since the 1930's.

I documented the connections in "Previous Affiliations: 1894-2013"

You know, the Big XII is a marriage of the Big 8 and the Southwest Conference, and it's lost WAY more members than the ACC... are you sure you want to throw stones?

Not false.

A genuine Frankenstein conference birthed from a corporate marriage.

That’s a reason why the conference championship game was an afterthought. Wake-Pitt has no historical context. Just a forced conference that never worked, hence the need for 20 year handcuff

Is this another Troy T Boy account?

You’ve got a sad obsession with the ACC and wanting it to break apart. Doesn’t bother with facts, proof, reason, etc. Just another pathetic troll agenda.

I have an obsession with realignment, which isn’t an obsession in this space. Consolidation is the central theme of realignment and it won’t spare the ACC as we know it.

It’s understandable your insecurities have interpreted that as being about being about the ACC. It’s not

So you are Troy T Boy/Jed Clampett/some other alias. NIU fan?

Real question: you honestly think the ACC is a Frankenstein conference but the Big 12 isn’t? The Big Ten isn’t? Hell, the Big “East” now encompasses Omaha. Hmm.

Your handle is “Big 12 fan too”. Mine is not “ACC Fan”, and when/if UNC leaves the ACC…it ain’t the ACC anymore! Can NIU say the same??

But let’s be real. You don’t root for NIU, that’s a cover. Are you even on the MAC board?? Lol what a joke

(09-03-2022 08:23 AM)PeteTheChop Wrote:  

(09-03-2022 06:06 AM)esayem Wrote:  Is this another Troy T Boy account?

You’ve got a sad obsession with the ACC and wanting it to break apart.

One man's sad obsession is another's noble cause

Cool. New rule: Miami can’t leave the ACC until they win the league!

(09-03-2022 12:46 AM)Skyhawk Wrote:  

(09-02-2022 11:51 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  FWIW, I do not believe ESPN will do anything to boost ACC pay beyond what the terms of the current contract call for. I do not think the fear of ACC teams jumping ship in 2036 is any kind of motivator in 2022.

I mean, what if the shoe was on the other foot, and ESPN had signed a deal to pay the ACC $50m per school per year for 20 years, then it turned out that the viewers weren't there and the conference was worth maybe $20m per school per year? Would anyone expect the ACC to go to ESPN and offer to take a pay cut to $20m a year just because? I do not think that likely. I know if I was an ACC fan, I'd be "hey, they signed the deal, so they better keep paying us that $50m a year every year, period".

Just MO.

Maybe around 2032, when the ACC deal is a few years from expiring, it will make sense for ESPN to offer to sweeten the pot. But not IMO before then.

If that happened, with the values that dramatically different (over half), I'm fairly sure espn would invite ACC to a negotiation table, or a courtroom...

besides, I would not be surprised if the deal already has some clause which addresses that.

All the ACC contract really has is look ins. Those are basically periods where the ACC can beg ESPN “Pretty please increase our contract” and ESPN says “Sorry, but no.” For some reason, some people acted like these look ins were actually remotely meaningful in 2012. (And actually I occasionally still do see some posters pretend that the look ins aren’t a joke.)


There’s nothing in the look ins that says that ESPN actually has to increase the ACC’s tv contract if the ACC gets certain TV ratings. Even if the ACC was getting 50 million viewers per game, ESPN could refuse to raise the ACC’s tv money at each look in.

(09-03-2022 05:54 AM)Herdforlife Wrote:  

(09-03-2022 01:23 AM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(09-02-2022 08:33 PM)Herdforlife Wrote:  

(09-02-2022 08:22 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(09-02-2022 07:38 PM)Skyhawk Wrote:  As others have mentioned, #1 is a price they're apparently happy to pay. so they're likely staying independent.

I agree with#2. WV, plus Cin and Memphis, should be priority adds to the ACC.

Edit - My 1000th post : )

1. WV, Cinci and Memphis don't move the needle for the ACC, at least not in the right direction.
2. WV and Cinci have no incentive to join the ACC as they can reasonably expect to get paid more just by staying in the big 12. Maybe close to parity today, but by 2025 or 2030 they're likely to be paid quite a bit more, actually. Oh, and there's no P2 trying to steal the top 2-6 teams from the big 12, so they're well-situated to thrive in the coming chaos, whether it happens no, 2036, or any time in between.

Lol I’m sorry, but that’s just not true. Although I agree Cinci and Memphis are insignificant in football.

1. WVU is a top 30-40 brand. That moves the needle, not to mention the rivalry games the conference would then own from that.
2. Maybe the money isn’t a big incentive, but the ACC is where WVU wants to be, they settled on the Big12 when they didn’t get an ACC invite after the big East fell apart.

I don't think that WVU is top 40, if they were then the ACC wouldn't have passed on them a decade ago, regardless of academics. However, I wasn't saying that WVU by themselves would be <= the ACC average, but rather the combination of Cinci/WV/Memphis would be <= the ACC average. And tbh, I don't see how that's a particularly controversial topic.

As far was why I don't think WVU wants to go to the ACC now, they know that the ACC is steaming rapidly towards the sort of upheaval that they just experienced in the big 12. They don't want to be the Colorado of 2036, begging to get a spot back in the big 12, when the P2 raids the ACC.

What makes them not a top 40 brand? Understand performance isn’t the only thing you judge on, your whole conference can’t be undefeated. I think there’s value as they’re 31st in attendance with 56k and 30th in tv viewership with 1.27m. I didn’t mention Cincy/Memphis, WVU and Notre Dame is my dream, but it is what it is, a dream.

I do think the ACC passed on them because they simply had too many teams already and for the most part I believe the ACC and BIG10 had held room for Notre Dame in farther expansion. If you could get Notre Dame then WVU would be the second team.

Unlike the PAC12 and BIG12 I think ESPN has an incentive to protect the ACC from being pouched. I think if they got Notre Dame they would be competitive with the P2, they would then have 3 of the to 15 brands.

Is that a 1 year sample or a decade? Every game, just conference, etc?

ND has zero interest in joining the ACC in football, they can make more as in independent and without the ridiculous GoR. At least with their other sports, they could wriggle free if they really wanted to.

(09-03-2022 12:59 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(09-03-2022 07:22 AM)Big 12 fan too Wrote:  

(09-03-2022 06:06 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(09-02-2022 09:37 PM)Big 12 fan too Wrote:  

(09-02-2022 09:12 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  FALSE. Every team in the ACC has significant history with the others since at least the early 90's - and at least half of the schools have been closely affiliated since the 1930's.

I documented the connections in "Previous Affiliations: 1894-2013"

You know, the Big XII is a marriage of the Big 8 and the Southwest Conference, and it's lost WAY more members than the ACC... are you sure you want to throw stones?

Not false.

A genuine Frankenstein conference birthed from a corporate marriage.

That’s a reason why the conference championship game was an afterthought. Wake-Pitt has no historical context. Just a forced conference that never worked, hence the need for 20 year handcuff

Is this another Troy T Boy account?

You’ve got a sad obsession with the ACC and wanting it to break apart. Doesn’t bother with facts, proof, reason, etc. Just another pathetic troll agenda.

I have an obsession with realignment, which isn’t an obsession in this space. Consolidation is the central theme of realignment and it won’t spare the ACC as we know it.

It’s understandable your insecurities have interpreted that as being about being about the ACC. It’s not

So you are Troy T Boy/Jed Clampett/some other alias. NIU fan?

Real question: you honestly think the ACC is a Frankenstein conference but the Big 12 isn’t? The Big Ten isn’t? Hell, the Big “East” now encompasses Omaha. Hmm.

Your handle is “Big 12 fan too”. Mine is not “ACC Fan”, and when/if UNC leaves the ACC…it ain’t the ACC anymore! Can NIU say the same??

I'll bet a lot of people would have said that if Nebraska, CU, Missou, A&M, Texas and OU left that the big 12 would dissolve/disband/disappear, and yet...they look to be coming out very strong on the other side. And at least 4 of those programs are superior to UNC as a conference building block.

(09-03-2022 12:59 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(09-03-2022 07:22 AM)Big 12 fan too Wrote:  

(09-03-2022 06:06 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(09-02-2022 09:37 PM)Big 12 fan too Wrote:  

(09-02-2022 09:12 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  FALSE. Every team in the ACC has significant history with the others since at least the early 90's - and at least half of the schools have been closely affiliated since the 1930's.

I documented the connections in "Previous Affiliations: 1894-2013"

You know, the Big XII is a marriage of the Big 8 and the Southwest Conference, and it's lost WAY more members than the ACC... are you sure you want to throw stones?

Not false.

A genuine Frankenstein conference birthed from a corporate marriage.

That’s a reason why the conference championship game was an afterthought. Wake-Pitt has no historical context. Just a forced conference that never worked, hence the need for 20 year handcuff

Is this another Troy T Boy account?

You’ve got a sad obsession with the ACC and wanting it to break apart. Doesn’t bother with facts, proof, reason, etc. Just another pathetic troll agenda.

I have an obsession with realignment, which isn’t an obsession in this space. Consolidation is the central theme of realignment and it won’t spare the ACC as we know it.

It’s understandable your insecurities have interpreted that as being about being about the ACC. It’s not

So you are Troy T Boy/Jed Clampett/some other alias. NIU fan?

Real question: you honestly think the ACC is a Frankenstein conference but the Big 12 isn’t? The Big Ten isn’t? Hell, the Big “East” now encompasses Omaha. Hmm.

Your handle is “Big 12 fan too”. Mine is not “ACC Fan”, and when/if UNC leaves the ACC…it ain’t the ACC anymore! Can NIU say the same??

You have such wounded ACC pride! As I’ve stated many times, the Big 12 was also a corporate marriage driven by the need to expand footprint for survival. Not as much Frankenstein as ACC, but an element of it. Both conferences therefore more susceptible to departures in this consolidation.

PAC was actually more innately flawed, but not corporate and had geography that took the forthcoming revenue disparities to overcome.

Whereas the BIG and SEC moves have not been moves due to weakness or needing to survive, but of opportunity.

The P2 era has been coming ever since the three weak conferences couldn’t figure out how to recombine in a setup that could lead to a true P3. All three flirted with ways to add some of the other in a quest to keep up, with the ACC and Big 12 already being products of such a process. But in the end, P2 was always a more likely outcome.

I’mnot a NIU fan. I’m big 12 fan too in the sense I have a 10+ year prediction that it wasn’t really a Big 12 issue in realignment, but consolidation that would hit other conferences. This account was for explaining the econometrics driving that consolidation to NIU fans that thought they had a chance of Big 12. I don’t care too much about games, or really any school or conference. It’s already a P2 era, which is good for the sport in the long run. The Big 12 and PAC are already rump states, and it being immaterial what year the Big East schools let FSU and Clemson go to SEC

(09-04-2022 10:34 AM)Big 12 fan too Wrote:  [...]
The Big 12 and PAC are already rump states, and it being immaterial what year the Big East schools let FSU and Clemson go to SEC

I understand you both are having a debate, and I'll happily leave you to it.

But that seems like such a pejorative. I cringe every time I read it.

Anyway, I leave you to your regularly scheduled programming.