Hello There, Guest! (LoginRegister)

Post Reply 
Canzano’s odds on PAC expansion candidates
Author Message
goodknightfl Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 21,188
Joined: Feb 2004
Reputation: 520
I Root For:
Location:
Post: #61
RE: Canzano’s odds on PAC expansion candidates
(08-29-2022 12:45 PM)Hokie4Skins Wrote:  San Diego State: 2 to 1
SMU: 4 to 1
UNLV: 5 to 1
Boise State: 6 to 1
Fresno State: 8 to 1
Big 12 schools: 10 to 1

https://www.johncanzano.com/p/canzano-pa...tid=li3ck7
Best odds not listed. 1-3 of league surviving to add anyone. Unless merger with MWC under Pac name.
He is likely close of top 5. on #6 it is more like 100 to 1. Big exit cost for same or less $$.
(This post was last modified: 08-30-2022 09:05 AM by goodknightfl.)
08-30-2022 08:46 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Sicembear11 Offline
Special Teams
*

Posts: 785
Joined: Jul 2020
Reputation: 151
I Root For: Baylor
Location:
Post: #62
RE: Canzano’s odds on PAC expansion candidates
(08-29-2022 11:27 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  
(08-29-2022 10:48 PM)superdeluxe Wrote:  
(08-29-2022 12:45 PM)Hokie4Skins Wrote:  San Diego State: 2 to 1
SMU: 4 to 1
UNLV: 5 to 1
Boise State: 6 to 1
Fresno State: 8 to 1
Big 12 schools: 10 to 1

https://www.johncanzano.com/p/canzano-pa...tid=li3ck7

No thanks as a UW supporter

Agreed. As a Stanford fan I have a hard time understanding why Stanford, Oregon or Washington would agree to expand before I knew what my situation was with the B1G in couple years. I doubt Cal, Arizona, Colorado, Utah or Arizona State would be in a rush to add anyone either. None of those schools moves the meter. Also bringing somebody in complicates the exit. They will want the schools to sign a GOR and institute a very hefty exit fee.

This is the mentality that would make me want to leave the PAC ASAP if I'm not on the B1G's calling card. If you truly believe that at least one more PAC school will be taken to the B1G and you know that school will not be you, then why would you want to sit around until everyone else makes their decision? Once a decision has been made, then all other choices need to go towards bolstering that decision

I hate the middle class of college football being forever bound by the decision making of the upper crust. The Big 12 didn't expand years ago because Texas managed to kill it, then continued to use the conference as their springboard into the SEC. USC and UCLA did the same thing with the PAC last year. A conference of middle class peers, geographically and institutionally balanced, and without any singular 800lbs Gorilla is attractive to me if I'm an Arizona or a Colorado. At least in that conference, everyone gets an equal say without being perceived as disadvantaged or lesser than. It may lack the brands that so many people like, but it will still be a very entertaining conference with a lot of satisfactory matchups in football and strong on-field strength balanced with strong basketball inventory. That conference should do well on the market relative to any singular conference of a hypothetical Post-raid PAC, Post-raid ACC, or New Big 12.
08-30-2022 08:59 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
bluesox Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 5,314
Joined: Jan 2006
Reputation: 84
I Root For:
Location:
Post: #63
RE: Canzano’s odds on PAC expansion candidates
The pac 12 should immediately offer

SD state and UNLV to get to 12

If nobody else leaves for the big 10, than offer

Kansas and Kansas state to get to 14. Yet, that pair probably doesn’t jump but if they did, than the pac could jump to 16 with Texas tech and X
(This post was last modified: 08-30-2022 09:15 AM by bluesox.)
08-30-2022 09:03 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
goodknightfl Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 21,188
Joined: Feb 2004
Reputation: 520
I Root For:
Location:
Post: #64
RE: Canzano’s odds on PAC expansion candidates
(08-30-2022 09:03 AM)bluesox Wrote:  The pac 12 should immediately offer

SD state and UNLV to get to 12

If nobody else leaves for the big 10, than offer

Kansas and Kansas state to get to 14. Yet, that pair probably doesn’t jump.

I wouldn't be surprised if SD St. is talking with B12 right now. If you are them and a choice came up, Where would you go? They may be a bit of a project, but they check a lot of boxes.
08-30-2022 09:08 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
UCGrad1992 Offline
Legend
*

Posts: 31,946
Joined: Sep 2013
Reputation: 2307
I Root For: Bearcats U
Location: North Carolina
Post: #65
RE: Canzano’s odds on PAC expansion candidates
(08-30-2022 09:08 AM)goodknightfl Wrote:  
(08-30-2022 09:03 AM)bluesox Wrote:  The pac 12 should immediately offer

SD state and UNLV to get to 12

If nobody else leaves for the big 10, than offer

Kansas and Kansas state to get to 14. Yet, that pair probably doesn’t jump.

I wouldn't be surprised if SD St. is talking with B12 right now. If you are them and a choice came up, Where would you go? They may be a bit of a project, but they check a lot of boxes.

No one is leaving the B12 for the "gentlemen's-agreement-stay-together" P12. There is no money incentive to do so either.
08-30-2022 09:25 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
jimrtex Offline
All American
*

Posts: 2,570
Joined: Aug 2021
Reputation: 263
I Root For: Houston, Tulsa, Colorado
Location:
Post: #66
RE: Canzano’s odds on PAC expansion candidates
(08-29-2022 02:29 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  
(08-29-2022 02:17 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(08-29-2022 02:14 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
(08-29-2022 02:11 PM)Section 200 Wrote:  If the Big East experience is a guide, Ore St & Wash St should pick the Teams they want to be associated with. UC & USF guided the Big East/American expansion. The other schools should step back and allow those schools that will be in the conference long term to make the choices.

Yep. People who think an autonomous conference will disband while a bunch of G5 schools won't jump at the opportunity to take their most valuable, shed their least valuable, gain 2 P5 schools, and gain autonomy are in for a rude awakening.

The Pac 2 would lose its autonomy. Those are 2 of the 5 most marginal P5 schools.
A Pac 8 or maybe even a 6 Pac wouldn't.

Taking away the PAC-12's autonomy would need an amendment to the NCAA constitution. It's not going to happen. Autonomy status isn't the same thing as media deciding to treat them as a "P5."
Read NCAA Manual Bylaw 9.2.2.1.2.2

NCAA 9.2.2.1.2.2 Wrote:Application to Other Conferences/Institutions. Legislation set forth as an area of autonomy may be applied by other member institutions at each conference's discretion, which may include delegation of such discretion to its member institutions.

One of the autonomy provisions is to permit a institution to pay for a party of four to accompany a recruit on an official visit.

The B1G or ACC is not required to adopt that rule, and the WAC or Horizon may adopt that rule, or even delegate it to individual institutions.

So imagine that Mark Few misses out on a couple of prospects. Every elite HS basketball player has heard of Gonzaga. Only 10% have ever heard of Spokane. Maybe the key part of a visit would be to reassure the parents that there are not Sasquatch attacking students on campus.

Few goes to his AD, who gets the WCC to agree to the rule. Since the other schools are mostly in California and they won't be paying airfare, and might not have to provide lodging agree to go along, particularly since they may believe the threat of Gonzaga to the Big East is going to happen.

If it is an expensive rule, WSU and OSU may be more likely to vote it down than Mountain West schools with more resources. They are better off not joining the PAC 2.

So the only power of the A5 conferences is to propose rules which might be adopted by the A5. Even if an A5 institution votes for a rule, they might not utilize it, or utilize it fully. Basketball and football coaches are going to have bigger recruiting budgets than the golf and tennis teams.
08-30-2022 09:27 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
bluesox Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 5,314
Joined: Jan 2006
Reputation: 84
I Root For:
Location:
Post: #67
RE: Canzano’s odds on PAC expansion candidates
I’m sure SD state wants something different

Option 1

Pac with no other schools leaving

Option 2

Big 12 pod with Arizona schools, BYU, Utah and Colorado

Option 3

MWC to 14 with Washington state and Oregon state
08-30-2022 09:29 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
ZooMass84 Offline
2nd String
*

Posts: 336
Joined: Dec 2016
Reputation: 25
I Root For: UMass, Texas A&M
Location: Casino
Post: #68
RE: Canzano’s odds on PAC expansion candidates
(08-29-2022 01:37 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Big 10 won't add anybody else until they get Notre Dame. That is the hold up right now.

agreed. ND is the Holy Grail of CFB.(no pun intended).
08-30-2022 09:30 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
UCGrad1992 Offline
Legend
*

Posts: 31,946
Joined: Sep 2013
Reputation: 2307
I Root For: Bearcats U
Location: North Carolina
Post: #69
RE: Canzano’s odds on PAC expansion candidates
(08-30-2022 09:30 AM)ZooMass84 Wrote:  
(08-29-2022 01:37 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Big 10 won't add anybody else until they get Notre Dame. That is the hold up right now.

agreed. ND is the Holy Grail of CFB.(no pun intended).

They are the biggest, best brand remaining outside of Clemson. That said, what if they don't have a better incentive to join a conference? They've been monetarily and culturally incentivized to remain indy in football for decades. At some point, the B1G is not going to keep waiting and let ND dictate their expansion moves IMO.
08-30-2022 09:44 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
PeteTheChop Online
Here rests the ACC: 1953-2026
*

Posts: 4,329
Joined: Apr 2007
Reputation: 1133
I Root For: C-A-N-E-S
Location: North Florida lifer
Post: #70
RE: Canzano’s odds on PAC expansion candidates
(08-29-2022 12:45 PM)Hokie4Skins Wrote:  Canzano’s odds on PAC expansion candidates

Rather see Warren's and Yormark's odds on PAC defection candidates
08-30-2022 09:50 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
bullet Offline
Legend
*

Posts: 66,890
Joined: Apr 2012
Reputation: 3317
I Root For: Texas, UK, UGA
Location:
Post: #71
RE: Canzano’s odds on PAC expansion candidates
(08-30-2022 08:59 AM)Sicembear11 Wrote:  
(08-29-2022 11:27 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  
(08-29-2022 10:48 PM)superdeluxe Wrote:  
(08-29-2022 12:45 PM)Hokie4Skins Wrote:  San Diego State: 2 to 1
SMU: 4 to 1
UNLV: 5 to 1
Boise State: 6 to 1
Fresno State: 8 to 1
Big 12 schools: 10 to 1

https://www.johncanzano.com/p/canzano-pa...tid=li3ck7

No thanks as a UW supporter

Agreed. As a Stanford fan I have a hard time understanding why Stanford, Oregon or Washington would agree to expand before I knew what my situation was with the B1G in couple years. I doubt Cal, Arizona, Colorado, Utah or Arizona State would be in a rush to add anyone either. None of those schools moves the meter. Also bringing somebody in complicates the exit. They will want the schools to sign a GOR and institute a very hefty exit fee.

This is the mentality that would make me want to leave the PAC ASAP if I'm not on the B1G's calling card. If you truly believe that at least one more PAC school will be taken to the B1G and you know that school will not be you, then why would you want to sit around until everyone else makes their decision? Once a decision has been made, then all other choices need to go towards bolstering that decision

I hate the middle class of college football being forever bound by the decision making of the upper crust. The Big 12 didn't expand years ago because Texas managed to kill it, then continued to use the conference as their springboard into the SEC. USC and UCLA did the same thing with the PAC last year. A conference of middle class peers, geographically and institutionally balanced, and without any singular 800lbs Gorilla is attractive to me if I'm an Arizona or a Colorado. At least in that conference, everyone gets an equal say without being perceived as disadvantaged or lesser than. It may lack the brands that so many people like, but it will still be a very entertaining conference with a lot of satisfactory matchups in football and strong on-field strength balanced with strong basketball inventory. That conference should do well on the market relative to any singular conference of a hypothetical Post-raid PAC, Post-raid ACC, or New Big 12.

In 2016 the Big 12 didn't expand because ESPN and Fox said, "Hell no!!!!!"
In 2011 they were apparently ready to add Louisville, but couldn't find a #12 that paid for themselves. Maybe some members were willing to do it anyway, but not enough.
08-30-2022 09:58 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
jimrtex Offline
All American
*

Posts: 2,570
Joined: Aug 2021
Reputation: 263
I Root For: Houston, Tulsa, Colorado
Location:
Post: #72
RE: Canzano’s odds on PAC expansion candidates
(08-29-2022 02:45 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
(08-29-2022 02:40 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(08-29-2022 02:29 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  
(08-29-2022 02:17 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(08-29-2022 02:14 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Yep. People who think an autonomous conference will disband while a bunch of G5 schools won't jump at the opportunity to take their most valuable, shed their least valuable, gain 2 P5 schools, and gain autonomy are in for a rude awakening.

The Pac 2 would lose its autonomy. Those are 2 of the 5 most marginal P5 schools.
A Pac 8 or maybe even a 6 Pac wouldn't.

Taking away the PAC-12's autonomy would need an amendment to the NCAA constitution. It's not going to happen. Autonomy status isn't the same thing as media deciding to treat them as a "P5."

#1 it would happen. #2 if they lose the majority of their members they lose their NCAA credits and may not be a conference anymore under NCAA rules so it may not need an amendment.

A video I watched recently pulled out the by-laws for NCAA credits and said that rule doesn't exist in the bylaws. Perhaps it was a past by-law, but it's no longer there. The conference keeps the credits even if a majority of members leave unless the conference dissolves.
Page 7 has the current rules (I don't think they have changed over time or actually been in the Manual). There is one current reference to probation schools not receiving distributions.

2022 NCAA Division I Revenue Distribution Plan (PDF)

The reference to 20.02.5 should probably be 20.02.8.5 since it is referring to the grace period when a conference falls below 7 active basketball members (note: a transitioning member is not an active member, until it completes the four year transition).

A conference retains the credits so long as it keeps 7 active members. A conference that falls below 7 active members has a two-year grace period to get back to 7 or above, otherwise it is treated as if it had dissolved, and any "distribution units" will go to current and former members as if they were independent at the time.

Also conferences must maintain their sport sponsorships.
08-30-2022 11:03 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
bullet Offline
Legend
*

Posts: 66,890
Joined: Apr 2012
Reputation: 3317
I Root For: Texas, UK, UGA
Location:
Post: #73
RE: Canzano’s odds on PAC expansion candidates
(08-30-2022 11:03 AM)jimrtex Wrote:  
(08-29-2022 02:45 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
(08-29-2022 02:40 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(08-29-2022 02:29 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  
(08-29-2022 02:17 PM)bullet Wrote:  The Pac 2 would lose its autonomy. Those are 2 of the 5 most marginal P5 schools.
A Pac 8 or maybe even a 6 Pac wouldn't.

Taking away the PAC-12's autonomy would need an amendment to the NCAA constitution. It's not going to happen. Autonomy status isn't the same thing as media deciding to treat them as a "P5."

#1 it would happen. #2 if they lose the majority of their members they lose their NCAA credits and may not be a conference anymore under NCAA rules so it may not need an amendment.

A video I watched recently pulled out the by-laws for NCAA credits and said that rule doesn't exist in the bylaws. Perhaps it was a past by-law, but it's no longer there. The conference keeps the credits even if a majority of members leave unless the conference dissolves.
Page 7 has the current rules (I don't think they have changed over time or actually been in the Manual). There is one current reference to probation schools not receiving distributions.

2022 NCAA Division I Revenue Distribution Plan (PDF)

The reference to 20.02.5 should probably be 20.02.8.5 since it is referring to the grace period when a conference falls below 7 active basketball members (note: a transitioning member is not an active member, until it completes the four year transition).

A conference retains the credits so long as it keeps 7 active members. A conference that falls below 7 active members has a two-year grace period to get back to 7 or above, otherwise it is treated as if it had dissolved, and any "distribution units" will go to current and former members as if they were independent at the time.

Also conferences must maintain their sport sponsorships.

The "WAC" rule may now allow a conference temporarily below 7 schools to keep all the units. We really haven't had anyone but the Big East and WAC to break up in recent years in Division I. The Big East was a negotiation where one conference got the name and the AAC got the credits. There have been some conference splits in Division II.
08-30-2022 11:23 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Attackcoog Offline
Moderator
*

Posts: 44,881
Joined: Oct 2011
Reputation: 2886
I Root For: Houston
Location:
Post: #74
RE: Canzano’s odds on PAC expansion candidates
(08-30-2022 11:03 AM)jimrtex Wrote:  
(08-29-2022 02:45 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
(08-29-2022 02:40 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(08-29-2022 02:29 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  
(08-29-2022 02:17 PM)bullet Wrote:  The Pac 2 would lose its autonomy. Those are 2 of the 5 most marginal P5 schools.
A Pac 8 or maybe even a 6 Pac wouldn't.

Taking away the PAC-12's autonomy would need an amendment to the NCAA constitution. It's not going to happen. Autonomy status isn't the same thing as media deciding to treat them as a "P5."

#1 it would happen. #2 if they lose the majority of their members they lose their NCAA credits and may not be a conference anymore under NCAA rules so it may not need an amendment.

A video I watched recently pulled out the by-laws for NCAA credits and said that rule doesn't exist in the bylaws. Perhaps it was a past by-law, but it's no longer there. The conference keeps the credits even if a majority of members leave unless the conference dissolves.
Page 7 has the current rules (I don't think they have changed over time or actually been in the Manual). There is one current reference to probation schools not receiving distributions.

2022 NCAA Division I Revenue Distribution Plan (PDF)

The reference to 20.02.5 should probably be 20.02.8.5 since it is referring to the grace period when a conference falls below 7 active basketball members (note: a transitioning member is not an active member, until it completes the four year transition).

A conference retains the credits so long as it keeps 7 active members. A conference that falls below 7 active members has a two-year grace period to get back to 7 or above, otherwise it is treated as if it had dissolved, and any "distribution units" will go to current and former members as if they were independent at the time.

Also conferences must maintain their sport sponsorships.

So basically, there is zero chance that the Pac12 would lose the NCAA distributions as long as its adding current FBS members as replacements.
08-30-2022 12:08 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
johnbragg Offline
Five Minute Google Expert
*

Posts: 16,448
Joined: Dec 2011
Reputation: 1014
I Root For: St Johns
Location:
Post: #75
RE: Canzano’s odds on PAC expansion candidates
(08-30-2022 12:08 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(08-30-2022 11:03 AM)jimrtex Wrote:  
(08-29-2022 02:45 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
(08-29-2022 02:40 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(08-29-2022 02:29 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  Taking away the PAC-12's autonomy would need an amendment to the NCAA constitution. It's not going to happen. Autonomy status isn't the same thing as media deciding to treat them as a "P5."

#1 it would happen. #2 if they lose the majority of their members they lose their NCAA credits and may not be a conference anymore under NCAA rules so it may not need an amendment.

A video I watched recently pulled out the by-laws for NCAA credits and said that rule doesn't exist in the bylaws. Perhaps it was a past by-law, but it's no longer there. The conference keeps the credits even if a majority of members leave unless the conference dissolves.
Page 7 has the current rules (I don't think they have changed over time or actually been in the Manual). There is one current reference to probation schools not receiving distributions.

2022 NCAA Division I Revenue Distribution Plan (PDF)

The reference to 20.02.5 should probably be 20.02.8.5 since it is referring to the grace period when a conference falls below 7 active basketball members (note: a transitioning member is not an active member, until it completes the four year transition).

A conference retains the credits so long as it keeps 7 active members. A conference that falls below 7 active members has a two-year grace period to get back to 7 or above, otherwise it is treated as if it had dissolved, and any "distribution units" will go to current and former members as if they were independent at the time.

Also conferences must maintain their sport sponsorships.

So basically, there is zero chance that the Pac12 would lose the NCAA distributions as long as its adding current FBS members as replacements.

Current Division I members. They could load up with a half-dozen Big West or WAC or WCC or Big Sky schools and stay a conference and keep their credits.
08-30-2022 12:13 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Stugray2 Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 7,254
Joined: Jan 2017
Reputation: 686
I Root For: tOSU SJSU Stan'
Location: South Bay Area CA
Post: #76
RE: Canzano’s odds on PAC expansion candidates
OK, since Wilner is convinced no more B1G expansion, I'll rank the expansion candidates, with 10.0 being a perfect score:

1. San Diego State (7.0)
-- Pac-12 needs back in Southern California badly. OK academics, not R1, not AAU, but solid MBB, budget challenged
-- note, location is 4.5 of those points
2. Houston (6.5)
-- This was the top value before the Big 12 invited them. Big Texas market, decent research, strong FB, MBB
-- unlikely they can be redirected from the Big 12, but it's worth a try
3 (a). Colorado State (5.0)
3 (b). Air Force (5.0)
-- both are excellent academic fits. CSU is solid in MBB, but weak fan support. AF is niche
-- neither school will even be considered unless Colorado and another four corner school leave the Pac-12
5. Southern Methodist (4.0)
-- The AI is high, but otherwise not a great institutional fit. Well funded and competitive athletics, in the valuable DFW market
-- Unlike Houston who have a Big 12 invite, they are available and would likely jump at a chance to get in an autonomous conference
6 (a). Fresno State (3.5)
-- smaller market, decent following, strong FB under Tollner. Weak academics, low AI and graduation rates. Not funded at Pac-12 levels/
6 (b). UNLV (3.5)
-- Las Vegas metro. Barely an academic fit (low AI and graduation rates) but is R1, improving research. MBB is OK, sports underfunded.
6 ©. Boise State (3.5)
-- best following, but in the middle of nowhere. Terrible academic, poor institutional fit. Usually good FB and decent MBB despite budget.
-- these three schools qualify as "pick your poison" choices. None helps much except to give you an even number
9. New Mexico (3.1)
-- flagship, but weak academics, financially challenged. Often good at MBB, hopeless in FB. Albuquerque weather get points.
10. Wyoming (2.9)
-- flagship, weak academics, not much research. But they love football, which might push them ahead of New Mexico, except the location.
11. Utah State (2.7)
-- Actually a decent school comparable to Oregon State and San Diego State. But really small budgets, 3rd school in small state.
12. San Jose State (2.6)
-- Silicon Valley location is most of this rating. Not an institutional fit. Up and down football, terrible unfunded MBB.
-- they only make the list of candidates once Cal and Stanford leave. Recruiting requirements for students and athletes need NorCal.
13. Nevada (2.5)
-- R1 institution, MBB and FB are up and down, depending on the coach. Great Ski location. But smaller school, budget and market
14. Hawaii (1.0)
-- Institutionally a decent fit, decent research, R1. But not solid in sports (middling Big West). Travel/time zone issues make them a no.
"Wild Card". Rice (?)
-- institutionally the Pac-12 Presidents would love them. Location is excellent in Houston. But athletics are underfunded and very weak.

Summary. If they are not raided again, the Pac-12 is looking at San Diego State and who knows whom else. Houston would be the ideal grab, but 99% likely they are not in play. That drops you down to SMU whose athletics are funded at Pac-12 level, are in a valuable market, and are available, if the Pac-12 Presidents can overlook institutional fit concerns, and generally weak following. Otherwise pick your poison among UNLV, Fresno State and Boise State.

Honestly I can see the Pac-12 Presidents grudgingly accept San Diego State, but insisting on Rice as partner school (after Houston confirms they are not interested) instead of SMU or anyone else on the list. If the 2nd school isn't going to help much for TV contract, then at least get one the Presidents would be happy to have as a member. That's why I put them as a very low chance wild card.
08-30-2022 02:28 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
CitrusUCF Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 7,697
Joined: Jan 2008
Reputation: 314
I Root For: UCF/Tulsa
Location:
Post: #77
RE: Canzano’s odds on PAC expansion candidates
(08-30-2022 02:28 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  OK, since Wilner is convinced no more B1G expansion, I'll rank the expansion candidates, with 10.0 being a perfect score:

1. San Diego State (7.0)
-- Pac-12 needs back in Southern California badly. OK academics, not R1, not AAU, but solid MBB, budget challenged
-- note, location is 4.5 of those points
2. Houston (6.5)
-- This was the top value before the Big 12 invited them. Big Texas market, decent research, strong FB, MBB
-- unlikely they can be redirected from the Big 12, but it's worth a try
3 (a). Colorado State (5.0)
3 (b). Air Force (5.0)
-- both are excellent academic fits. CSU is solid in MBB, but weak fan support. AF is niche
-- neither school will even be considered unless Colorado and another four corner school leave the Pac-12
5. Southern Methodist (4.0)
-- The AI is high, but otherwise not a great institutional fit. Well funded and competitive athletics, in the valuable DFW market
-- Unlike Houston who have a Big 12 invite, they are available and would likely jump at a chance to get in an autonomous conference
6 (a). Fresno State (3.5)
-- smaller market, decent following, strong FB under Tollner. Weak academics, low AI and graduation rates. Not funded at Pac-12 levels/
6 (b). UNLV (3.5)
-- Las Vegas metro. Barely an academic fit (low AI and graduation rates) but is R1, improving research. MBB is OK, sports underfunded.
6 ©. Boise State (3.5)
-- best following, but in the middle of nowhere. Terrible academic, poor institutional fit. Usually good FB and decent MBB despite budget.
-- these three schools qualify as "pick your poison" choices. None helps much except to give you an even number
9. New Mexico (3.1)
-- flagship, but weak academics, financially challenged. Often good at MBB, hopeless in FB. Albuquerque weather get points.
10. Wyoming (2.9)
-- flagship, weak academics, not much research. But they love football, which might push them ahead of New Mexico, except the location.
11. Utah State (2.7)
-- Actually a decent school comparable to Oregon State and San Diego State. But really small budgets, 3rd school in small state.
12. San Jose State (2.6)
-- Silicon Valley location is most of this rating. Not an institutional fit. Up and down football, terrible unfunded MBB.
-- they only make the list of candidates once Cal and Stanford leave. Recruiting requirements for students and athletes need NorCal.
13. Nevada (2.5)
-- R1 institution, MBB and FB are up and down, depending on the coach. Great Ski location. But smaller school, budget and market
14. Hawaii (1.0)
-- Institutionally a decent fit, decent research, R1. But not solid in sports (middling Big West). Travel/time zone issues make them a no.
"Wild Card". Rice (?)
-- institutionally the Pac-12 Presidents would love them. Location is excellent in Houston. But athletics are underfunded and very weak.

Summary. If they are not raided again, the Pac-12 is looking at San Diego State and who knows whom else. Houston would be the ideal grab, but 99% likely they are not in play. That drops you down to SMU whose athletics are funded at Pac-12 level, are in a valuable market, and are available, if the Pac-12 Presidents can overlook institutional fit concerns, and generally weak following. Otherwise pick your poison among UNLV, Fresno State and Boise State.

Honestly I can see the Pac-12 Presidents grudgingly accept San Diego State, but insisting on Rice as partner school (after Houston confirms they are not interested) instead of SMU or anyone else on the list. If the 2nd school isn't going to help much for TV contract, then at least get one the Presidents would be happy to have as a member. That's why I put them as a very low chance wild card.

I largely agree with your list, though I think UTSA will be a target if they lose more schools to go with SMU. There's no school available to them with as a high of a ceiling as UTSA.

I also believe that Rice could get there if they would commit to spending money like SMU. They shouldn't have an issue raising funds if they were committed to it. A triple entry into Texas wouldn't be the worst thing for the PAC-12, especially if they lose more schools.
08-30-2022 02:33 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
EdwordL Offline
Special Teams
*

Posts: 770
Joined: Sep 2020
Reputation: 118
I Root For: KU, WVU
Location:
Post: #78
RE: Canzano’s odds on PAC expansion candidates
(08-29-2022 01:22 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  I found this comment interesting.
I like how he said ESPN didn’t want to “disrupt” college football 03-lmfao
That’s all ESPN has done for the last 20 years.

“ There’s the matter of Big 12 bylaws, which potentially penalizes departing members to the tune of about $76 million. But there’s a tricky workaround there. The conference bylaws also allow for the Big 12 to be dissolved with only eight votes. Texas and Oklahoma are already there. That only leaves six votes to get and there would be no penalty.

If the Pac-12 poached Oklahoma State, Baylor, Texas Tech, TCU, Kansas and Kansas State, the Big 12 would disband. I don’t think this is going to happen. In part, because I don’t believe ESPN wants to further disrupt the teetering ecosystem.”

Since the news broke in 2021, I'm not sure that OU/UT could vote on disbanding. JR says they have signed documents to join the SEC; so, even if the schools have not formally notified the conference, I don't think they'd be able to vote on this, or any other issue involving the future of the Big XII.
08-30-2022 02:48 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Attackcoog Offline
Moderator
*

Posts: 44,881
Joined: Oct 2011
Reputation: 2886
I Root For: Houston
Location:
Post: #79
RE: Canzano’s odds on PAC expansion candidates
(08-30-2022 12:13 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(08-30-2022 12:08 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(08-30-2022 11:03 AM)jimrtex Wrote:  
(08-29-2022 02:45 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
(08-29-2022 02:40 PM)bullet Wrote:  #1 it would happen. #2 if they lose the majority of their members they lose their NCAA credits and may not be a conference anymore under NCAA rules so it may not need an amendment.

A video I watched recently pulled out the by-laws for NCAA credits and said that rule doesn't exist in the bylaws. Perhaps it was a past by-law, but it's no longer there. The conference keeps the credits even if a majority of members leave unless the conference dissolves.
Page 7 has the current rules (I don't think they have changed over time or actually been in the Manual). There is one current reference to probation schools not receiving distributions.

2022 NCAA Division I Revenue Distribution Plan (PDF)

The reference to 20.02.5 should probably be 20.02.8.5 since it is referring to the grace period when a conference falls below 7 active basketball members (note: a transitioning member is not an active member, until it completes the four year transition).

A conference retains the credits so long as it keeps 7 active members. A conference that falls below 7 active members has a two-year grace period to get back to 7 or above, otherwise it is treated as if it had dissolved, and any "distribution units" will go to current and former members as if they were independent at the time.

Also conferences must maintain their sport sponsorships.

So basically, there is zero chance that the Pac12 would lose the NCAA distributions as long as its adding current FBS members as replacements.

Current Division I members. They could load up with a half-dozen Big West or WAC or WCC or Big Sky schools and stay a conference and keep their credits.

Good point---but I dont think the Pac12 would be that desperate. Other than Zags, I doubt they would be interested or find it necessary to expand with non-FBS schools just to survive....but point taken.
(This post was last modified: 08-30-2022 04:55 PM by Attackcoog.)
08-30-2022 04:53 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Aztecgolfer Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 2,497
Joined: Jan 2021
Reputation: 203
I Root For: San Diego State
Location: San Diego
Post: #80
RE: Canzano’s odds on PAC expansion candidates
(08-30-2022 02:28 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  OK, since Wilner is convinced no more B1G expansion, I'll rank the expansion candidates, with 10.0 being a perfect score:

1. San Diego State (7.0)
-- Pac-12 needs back in Southern California badly. OK academics, not R1, not AAU, but solid MBB, budget challenged
-- note, location is 4.5 of those points
2. Houston (6.5)
-- This was the top value before the Big 12 invited them. Big Texas market, decent research, strong FB, MBB
-- unlikely they can be redirected from the Big 12, but it's worth a try
3 (a). Colorado State (5.0)
3 (b). Air Force (5.0)
-- both are excellent academic fits. CSU is solid in MBB, but weak fan support. AF is niche
-- neither school will even be considered unless Colorado and another four corner school leave the Pac-12
5. Southern Methodist (4.0)
-- The AI is high, but otherwise not a great institutional fit. Well funded and competitive athletics, in the valuable DFW market
-- Unlike Houston who have a Big 12 invite, they are available and would likely jump at a chance to get in an autonomous conference
6 (a). Fresno State (3.5)
-- smaller market, decent following, strong FB under Tollner. Weak academics, low AI and graduation rates. Not funded at Pac-12 levels/
6 (b). UNLV (3.5)
-- Las Vegas metro. Barely an academic fit (low AI and graduation rates) but is R1, improving research. MBB is OK, sports underfunded.
6 ©. Boise State (3.5)
-- best following, but in the middle of nowhere. Terrible academic, poor institutional fit. Usually good FB and decent MBB despite budget.
-- these three schools qualify as "pick your poison" choices. None helps much except to give you an even number
9. New Mexico (3.1)
-- flagship, but weak academics, financially challenged. Often good at MBB, hopeless in FB. Albuquerque weather get points.
10. Wyoming (2.9)
-- flagship, weak academics, not much research. But they love football, which might push them ahead of New Mexico, except the location.
11. Utah State (2.7)
-- Actually a decent school comparable to Oregon State and San Diego State. But really small budgets, 3rd school in small state.
12. San Jose State (2.6)
-- Silicon Valley location is most of this rating. Not an institutional fit. Up and down football, terrible unfunded MBB.
-- they only make the list of candidates once Cal and Stanford leave. Recruiting requirements for students and athletes need NorCal.
13. Nevada (2.5)
-- R1 institution, MBB and FB are up and down, depending on the coach. Great Ski location. But smaller school, budget and market
14. Hawaii (1.0)
-- Institutionally a decent fit, decent research, R1. But not solid in sports (middling Big West). Travel/time zone issues make them a no.
"Wild Card". Rice (?)
-- institutionally the Pac-12 Presidents would love them. Location is excellent in Houston. But athletics are underfunded and very weak.

Summary. If they are not raided again, the Pac-12 is looking at San Diego State and who knows whom else. Houston would be the ideal grab, but 99% likely they are not in play. That drops you down to SMU whose athletics are funded at Pac-12 level, are in a valuable market, and are available, if the Pac-12 Presidents can overlook institutional fit concerns, and generally weak following. Otherwise pick your poison among UNLV, Fresno State and Boise State.

Honestly I can see the Pac-12 Presidents grudgingly accept San Diego State, but insisting on Rice as partner school (after Houston confirms they are not interested) instead of SMU or anyone else on the list. If the 2nd school isn't going to help much for TV contract, then at least get one the Presidents would be happy to have as a member. That's why I put them as a very low chance wild card.

I would say SDSU is a solid academics, not just "OK." Not R1 yet but on pace for their goal of getting there by 2025. The west campus expansion is geared towards increasing SDSU's research capabilities, partnering with the private sector in the process.

I don't see Hawaii as a possibility for full membership. However, football only paired with a school like Gonzaga for Olympic sports is an attractive and bold addition.
08-31-2022 09:53 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 




User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)


Copyright © 2002-2024 Collegiate Sports Nation Bulletin Board System (CSNbbs), All Rights Reserved.
CSNbbs is an independent fan site and is in no way affiliated to the NCAA or any of the schools and conferences it represents.
This site monetizes links. FTC Disclosure.
We allow third-party companies to serve ads and/or collect certain anonymous information when you visit our web site. These companies may use non-personally identifiable information (e.g., click stream information, browser type, time and date, subject of advertisements clicked or scrolled over) during your visits to this and other Web sites in order to provide advertisements about goods and services likely to be of greater interest to you. These companies typically use a cookie or third party web beacon to collect this information. To learn more about this behavioral advertising practice or to opt-out of this type of advertising, you can visit http://www.networkadvertising.org.
Powered By MyBB, © 2002-2024 MyBB Group.