We’ve probably talked about this one before but let’s say that Northwestern follows the same path as their cross-town academic peer in the 40s and the Big 10 is left with just 8 members.

Michigan St replaced Chicago but who would they pick if they had 2 vacancies to fill? Or, at an even 8 does the Big 10 stay small?

The dream pick is obviously ND but I’m not sure if they’d go for it.

Pitt is an option in the East. Your other options are from the Big 8: Nebraska, Missouri, and Iowa St.

What do you think they do?

Whichever school had the most prestige & power.

I’m pretty sure Pitt was the runner-up to Michigan State when they were added. Nebraska flirted interest in the Big Ten over the years as well.

(05-18-2022 05:46 PM)esayem Wrote:  I’m pretty sure Pitt was the runner-up to Michigan State when they were added. Nebraska flirted interest in the Big Ten over the years as well.

I was going to say, pretty sure everything ends up the same today except swap out Northwestern for Pitt with Pitt having been added somewhere in the 1940s-1960s range.

Alternate: Chicago stays in the B1G - when does Michigan State get added?

Pitt in the Big 10 definitely changes Big East history. Could they form a football conference with just Syracuse and BC?

Almost makes me wonder if we would have seen Metro football in 1991 with:

Miami
VT
Cincinnati
Louisville
Memphis
Tulane
USM
WVU (new)
Rutgers (new)
Temple (new)
BC (fb only)
Syracuse (fb only)

(05-18-2022 06:16 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  Alternate: Chicago stays in the B1G - when does Michigan State get added?

So I wonder where that would put the Spartans all that time?

Maybe Mich St buys into Penn St’s eastern all sports conference and provided enough momentum to get Pitt, Cuse, Rutgers, etc to buy in.

My best guess is that they end up in Big East football in 1991 and today are either in the ACC or Big 12.

Alternate theories can go any direction.

What if Jim Tatum never goes to Maryland--does the ACC even consider them?

What if Frank Leahy stayed at Georgetown instead of going to BC?

What if Villanova does not drop football in 1981?

(05-18-2022 05:05 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  We’ve probably talked about this one before but let’s say that Northwestern follows the same path as their cross-town academic peer in the 40s and the Big 10 is left with just 8 members.

Michigan St replaced Chicago but who would they pick if they had 2 vacancies to fill? Or, at an even 8 does the Big 10 stay small?

The dream pick is obviously ND but I’m not sure if they’d go for it.

Don't if the anti-Catholic bigotry had subsided enough by that point for ND to be invited.

(05-18-2022 08:40 PM)PeteTheChop Wrote:  Don't if the anti-Catholic bigotry had subsided enough by that point for ND to be invited.

Fritz Crisler would have had something say about it, too.

(05-18-2022 09:38 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(05-18-2022 08:40 PM)PeteTheChop Wrote:  Don't if the anti-Catholic bigotry had subsided enough by that point for ND to be invited.

Fritz Crisler would have had something say about it, too.

This is absolutely true. The Big Ten, especially Michigan, wasn't taking Catholic Notre Dame in those days.

If Northwestern leaves with U of Chicago, the Big Ten (Western Conference) stays at 8. That is, until the Michigan legislature gets involved and forces UM to allow Michigan State into the conference. (not sure if the Michigan legislature would have made such a move)

Another alternate scenario: If Northwestern leaves, and the Big Ten adds MSU and Pitt as members 9 and 10, does Pitt block Penn State from the Big Ten?

(05-18-2022 10:04 PM)johnintx Wrote:  

(05-18-2022 09:38 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(05-18-2022 08:40 PM)PeteTheChop Wrote:  Don't if the anti-Catholic bigotry had subsided enough by that point for ND to be invited.

Fritz Crisler would have had something say about it, too.

This is absolutely true. The Big Ten, especially Michigan, wasn't taking Catholic Notre Dame in those days.

If Northwestern leaves with U of Chicago, the Big Ten (Western Conference) stays at 8. That is, until the Michigan legislature gets involved and forces UM to allow Michigan State into the conference. (not sure if the Michigan legislature would have made such a move)

Another alternate scenario: If Northwestern leaves, and the Big Ten adds MSU and Pitt as members 9 and 10, does Pitt block Penn State from the Big Ten?

I think Pitt in the Big 10 might have even sped up Penn St’s move to the Big 10 by a decade.

Penn St held out hope for a long time for an eastern all sports conference and only after it was clear they wouldn’t get one did they go the Big 10. With Pitt, arguably the 2nd best program in the northeast at the time, forming an eastern all sports conference becomes even more unrealistic.

Well, the obvious response would be to add UIC.

(05-18-2022 10:20 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Well, the obvious response would be to add UIC.

UIC Circle to Pasadena.

(05-18-2022 10:17 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(05-18-2022 10:04 PM)johnintx Wrote:  

(05-18-2022 09:38 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(05-18-2022 08:40 PM)PeteTheChop Wrote:  Don't if the anti-Catholic bigotry had subsided enough by that point for ND to be invited.

Fritz Crisler would have had something say about it, too.

This is absolutely true. The Big Ten, especially Michigan, wasn't taking Catholic Notre Dame in those days.

If Northwestern leaves with U of Chicago, the Big Ten (Western Conference) stays at 8. That is, until the Michigan legislature gets involved and forces UM to allow Michigan State into the conference. (not sure if the Michigan legislature would have made such a move)

Another alternate scenario: If Northwestern leaves, and the Big Ten adds MSU and Pitt as members 9 and 10, does Pitt block Penn State from the Big Ten?

I think Pitt in the Big 10 might have even sped up Penn St’s move to the Big 10 by a decade.

Penn St held out hope for a long time for an eastern all sports conference and only after it was clear they wouldn’t get one did they go the Big 10. With Pitt, arguably the 2nd best program in the northeast at the time, forming an eastern all sports conference becomes even more unrealistic.

Eh, yes and no. I don’t think it would have happened earlier because nobody wanted a conference larger than ten until the SEC “uncovered” the CCG rule and it became monetarily viable. The SEC turned down Georgia Tech—a national program—for readmittance a couple times in the 70’s because eleven was too large.

The reason an eastern all-sports conference didn’t happen in the 50’s was because of Pitt’s desire for Big 10 membership, and in turn there was no interest from Penn State—which wasn’t joining without the Panthers. After that failed, once powerful programs like Fordham closed shop and others like Temple and Rutgers deemphasized; there just weren’t enough powerful eastern schools to get it going again until the late 70’s.

In the early 50’s, the eastern “power” programs outside of Ivy squads were Boston U, Holy Cross, Fordham, Army, Syracuse, Colgate, Villanova, PSU, Pitt, and Navy. Penn also held out as an Indy playing a national schedule before eventually joining the Ivy.

(05-18-2022 06:17 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Pitt in the Big 10 definitely changes Big East history. Could they form a football conference with just Syracuse and BC?

Almost makes me wonder if we would have seen Metro football in 1991 with:

Miami
VT
Cincinnati
Louisville
Memphis
Tulane
USM
WVU (new)
Rutgers (new)
Temple (new)
BC (fb only)
Syracuse (fb only)

Pitt being in the B1G at that point also would have changed the Atlantic 10 (Eastern 8) formation. Especially if it resulted in a changed path for Penn State as well.

Original Lineup from 1976:
Duquesne
George Washington
Massachusetts
Penn State
Pittsburgh
Rutgers
Villanova
West Virginia

Penn State left in 79 and Bona came in. Nova left in 80 and was replaced by URI. So it's possible it would have been those two to start in place of Pitt/Penn State. But there would have needed to be another team there to replace Nova in 80.

The next set of invites was Penn State (joined back in 1982), Temple, and St. Joes.

But with Penn State possibly not involved, that would be an odd number of teams instead of the 10 that made it A10.


Duquesne
George Washington
Massachusetts
Rutgers
West Virginia
Bona
URI

One of Temple/St. Joes would take it back to 8, both would take it to 9. No one else was added until the 90s. Would we have just added 1 of them to get back to 8? Or would a 3rd team have come in to take it to 10. Who would that 3rd team have been if 10?

(05-18-2022 10:04 PM)johnintx Wrote:  

(05-18-2022 09:38 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(05-18-2022 08:40 PM)PeteTheChop Wrote:  Don't if the anti-Catholic bigotry had subsided enough by that point for ND to be invited.

Fritz Crisler would have had something say about it, too.

This is absolutely true. The Big Ten, especially Michigan, wasn't taking Catholic Notre Dame in those days.

If Northwestern leaves with U of Chicago, the Big Ten (Western Conference) stays at 8. That is, until the Michigan legislature gets involved and forces UM to allow Michigan State into the conference. (not sure if the Michigan legislature would have made such a move)

Another alternate scenario: If Northwestern leaves, and the Big Ten adds MSU and Pitt as members 9 and 10, does Pitt block Penn State from the Big Ten?

If Pitt is black-balling their rival, maybe the ACC has a better shot at Penn State. ACC Commissioner Gene Corrigan always wanted Penn State, but struggled convincing traditionalist member schools about the need to expand the conference. The combination of Penn State and Florida State would have transformed decision-making away from a country club mentality…probably moved to a CCG (12 teams) sooner.

When Michigan State was added, Iowa State, Nebraska, Pitt, Notre Dame and Marquette were the schools mentioned most often.

(05-19-2022 10:03 AM)e-parade Wrote:  

(05-18-2022 06:17 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Pitt in the Big 10 definitely changes Big East history. Could they form a football conference with just Syracuse and BC?

Almost makes me wonder if we would have seen Metro football in 1991 with:

Miami
VT
Cincinnati
Louisville
Memphis
Tulane
USM
WVU (new)
Rutgers (new)
Temple (new)
BC (fb only)
Syracuse (fb only)

Pitt being in the B1G at that point also would have changed the Atlantic 10 (Eastern 8) formation. Especially if it resulted in a changed path for Penn State as well.

Original Lineup from 1976:
Duquesne
George Washington
Massachusetts
Penn State
Pittsburgh
Rutgers
Villanova
West Virginia

Penn State left in 79 and Bona came in. Nova left in 80 and was replaced by URI. So it's possible it would have been those two to start in place of Pitt/Penn State. But there would have needed to be another team there to replace Nova in 80.

The next set of invites was Penn State (joined back in 1982), Temple, and St. Joes.

But with Penn State possibly not involved, that would be an odd number of teams instead of the 10 that made it A10.


Duquesne
George Washington
Massachusetts
Rutgers
West Virginia
Bona
URI

One of Temple/St. Joes would take it back to 8, both would take it to 9. No one else was added until the 90s. Would we have just added 1 of them to get back to 8? Or would a 3rd team have come in to take it to 10. Who would that 3rd team have been if 10?

Funny enough, I just read an article about the formation of the Eastern 8. UMass ended up getting Syracuse's spot because they balked. In the article I read, Cincinnati and Louisville were actually the early favorites to take the 8th spot despite being in the Metro. Virginia Tech was mentioned as having interest as well.

(05-18-2022 06:16 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  Alternate: Chicago stays in the B1G - when does Michigan State get added?

Yeah, that’s intriguing, because you get an upward-trending midwestern land grant school out there…does it cause shifts elsewhere (Big 8, SWC?), or do you have yet another independent east of the Mississippi that plays into the shaping of another conference.

If it’s early enough, it could avoid whatever carnival-barking silliness Joe Paterno would start spewing in the late 60’s and then the 70’s. And either a pre-Paterno PSU is aboard something, or left out in the cold.