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What is a fair amount to release ODU USM and Marshall?
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ESE84 Offline
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Post: #21
RE: What is a fair amount to release ODU USM and Marshall?
(02-03-2022 09:26 AM)Saint3333 Wrote:  
(02-03-2022 09:09 AM)ESE84 Wrote:  
(02-02-2022 09:09 PM)GaSoEagle Wrote:  We are talking releasing them with 8 month notice instead of 14 so 6 months early.

I don’t think Judy should be fair. Her fiduciary responsibility is to C-USA, and not the teams departing to the Sunbelt or AAC. She should position for every dollar she can extract from any program wanting out early.

If only she had been so eager to perform in this manner since inception.

If you are speaking about the prior departures to the AAC, I think the dynamics have changed. When Houston, Central Florida, et al departed the remaining members (probably including Marshall and USM) wanted to follow them to the AAC. Perhaps the voting members at that time had no appetite to take on the AAC while they were asking to be included next time.

That dynamic is not here with the Sunbelt. Louisiana Tech and UTEP know they have little chance at the Sunbelt, and the other three schools voting also have history in leaving the Sunbelt.

Now, can the 3 Sunbelt schools prove the inconsistencies in arbitration, mediation, or court if it gets that far? Probably. But those schools are working on a March 1 football schedule deadline established by the Sunbelt. Again, Judy seems to be holding the full house here and Marshall, ODU, and USM are looking at two pair.

Pay the man.
02-03-2022 09:48 AM
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gdunn Offline
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Post: #22
RE: What is a fair amount to release ODU USM and Marshall?
(02-03-2022 09:48 AM)ESE84 Wrote:  
(02-03-2022 09:26 AM)Saint3333 Wrote:  
(02-03-2022 09:09 AM)ESE84 Wrote:  
(02-02-2022 09:09 PM)GaSoEagle Wrote:  We are talking releasing them with 8 month notice instead of 14 so 6 months early.

I don’t think Judy should be fair. Her fiduciary responsibility is to C-USA, and not the teams departing to the Sunbelt or AAC. She should position for every dollar she can extract from any program wanting out early.

If only she had been so eager to perform in this manner since inception.

If you are speaking about the prior departures to the AAC, I think the dynamics have changed. When Houston, Central Florida, et al departed the remaining members (probably including Marshall and USM) wanted to follow them to the AAC. Perhaps the voting members at that time had no appetite to take on the AAC while they were asking to be included next time.

That dynamic is not here with the Sunbelt. Louisiana Tech and UTEP know they have little chance at the Sunbelt, and the other three schools voting also have history in leaving the Sunbelt.

Now, can the 3 Sunbelt schools prove the inconsistencies in arbitration, mediation, or court if it gets that far? Probably. But those schools are working on a March 1 football schedule deadline established by the Sunbelt. Again, Judy seems to be holding the full house here and Marshall, ODU, and USM are looking at two pair.

Pay the man.

I think the problem is, they're trying to pay the Conference, but because the bylaws give no financial direction as to what's owed, all they're doing is making offers and CUSA is either not countering or countering with something ridiculous. At some point it could be the teams leave and tell CUSA we'll see you in court.

That should scare the conference especially if they've allowed other members to skate by and not enforce the bylaws. You can't have something going on for 25 years and allow everyone to ignore the bylaws, and then one day decide to enforce it. If there's evidence of that, it'll be thrown out and CUSA could be dealt the legal fees.

I like the SBC chances, but of course I'm biased.
02-03-2022 10:00 AM
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DogsWin1 Offline
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Post: #23
RE: What is a fair amount to release ODU USM and Marshall?
(02-03-2022 10:00 AM)gdunn Wrote:  At some point it could be the teams leave and tell CUSA we'll see you in court.
I hope they do. They will definitely be 'seen in court' for their willful breach of contract.
02-03-2022 10:09 AM
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gdunn Offline
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Post: #24
RE: What is a fair amount to release ODU USM and Marshall?
(02-03-2022 10:09 AM)DogsWin1 Wrote:  
(02-03-2022 10:00 AM)gdunn Wrote:  At some point it could be the teams leave and tell CUSA we'll see you in court.
I hope they do. They will definitely be 'seen in court' for their willful breach of contract.

Definitely will. And during the case it'll be shown they tried to negotiate the office wouldn't budge, and never enforced bylaws until now. That won't bode well for CUSA.

I figure what's happening now is grandstanding and trying to squeeze blood out of a turnip.

And to pay for the court costs where do you think that money is coming from? That's right the distributions from the 9 teams leaving which means the remaining 5 get a smaller piece of the fees.
(This post was last modified: 02-03-2022 10:13 AM by gdunn.)
02-03-2022 10:12 AM
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HTOWN_HERD Offline
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Post: #25
RE: What is a fair amount to release ODU USM and Marshall?
(02-03-2022 10:09 AM)DogsWin1 Wrote:  
(02-03-2022 10:00 AM)gdunn Wrote:  At some point it could be the teams leave and tell CUSA we'll see you in court.
I hope they do. They will definitely be 'seen in court' for their willful breach of contract.

The SBC departing schools have lawyers too. There is no scenario where CUSA strong arms us into staying or really “takes it to us” in court. The cost to leave will eventually be whatever we are already offering or less.
02-03-2022 10:13 AM
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Ewglenn Offline
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Post: #26
RE: What is a fair amount to release ODU USM and Marshall?
(02-02-2022 11:44 PM)Nugget49er Wrote:  One way to look at this is that there are 9 teams leaving CUSA that could part as friends and perhaps there are future scheduling opportunities there, or CUSA could really stick it to them and CUSA's OOC games will be against the SWAC.

I doubt ADs are going to hold what the league offices do against the remains 5 members when it comes to scheduling. We’re in the G5 and if it saves on travel to play teams from CUSA then you’ll see them on the schedule.
02-03-2022 10:15 AM
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GreenBison Offline
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Post: #27
RE: What is a fair amount to release ODU USM and Marshall?
(02-02-2022 11:44 PM)Nugget49er Wrote:  One way to look at this is that there are 9 teams leaving CUSA that could part as friends and perhaps there are future scheduling opportunities there, or CUSA could really stick it to them and CUSA's OOC games will be against the SWAC.

CUSA burned the bridge with ESPN and now they're burning a bridge with the SBC 3. Heck, ESPN needs the 2022 schedule ASAP and CUSA is holding it up. Not a good look in my opinion, I'm sure ESPN is taking notes.
02-03-2022 10:26 AM
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ESE84 Offline
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Post: #28
RE: What is a fair amount to release ODU USM and Marshall?
(02-03-2022 10:12 AM)gdunn Wrote:  
(02-03-2022 10:09 AM)DogsWin1 Wrote:  
(02-03-2022 10:00 AM)gdunn Wrote:  At some point it could be the teams leave and tell CUSA we'll see you in court.
I hope they do. They will definitely be 'seen in court' for their willful breach of contract.

Definitely will. And during the case it'll be shown they tried to negotiate the office wouldn't budge, and never enforced bylaws until now. That won't bode well for CUSA.

I figure what's happening now is grandstanding and trying to squeeze blood out of a turnip.

And to pay for the court costs where do you think that money is coming from? That's right the distributions from the 9 teams leaving which means the remaining 5 get a smaller piece of the fees.

I agree with what you say above. If the parties are rational, those legal fees will be factored into the settlement discussions. I wonder if the bylaws require legal matters to be settled under Texas law? Just a guess that Marshall, ODU, and USM would want to avoid litigation in Texas.
02-03-2022 10:27 AM
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ESE84 Offline
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Post: #29
RE: What is a fair amount to release ODU USM and Marshall?
(02-03-2022 10:26 AM)GreenBison Wrote:  
(02-02-2022 11:44 PM)Nugget49er Wrote:  One way to look at this is that there are 9 teams leaving CUSA that could part as friends and perhaps there are future scheduling opportunities there, or CUSA could really stick it to them and CUSA's OOC games will be against the SWAC.

CUSA burned the bridge with ESPN and now they're burning a bridge with the SBC 3. Heck, ESPN needs the 2022 schedule ASAP and CUSA is holding it up. Not a good look in my opinion, I'm sure ESPN is taking notes.

Maybe this is the one best shot Judy has of expanding C-USA time slots with ESPN as part of those negotiations.

Maybe ESPN prefers the Sunbelt 3 not leave early, too.
02-03-2022 10:30 AM
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gdunn Offline
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Post: #30
RE: What is a fair amount to release ODU USM and Marshall?
(02-03-2022 10:15 AM)Ewglenn Wrote:  
(02-02-2022 11:44 PM)Nugget49er Wrote:  One way to look at this is that there are 9 teams leaving CUSA that could part as friends and perhaps there are future scheduling opportunities there, or CUSA could really stick it to them and CUSA's OOC games will be against the SWAC.

I doubt ADs are going to hold what the league offices do against the remains 5 members when it comes to scheduling. We’re in the G5 and if it saves on travel to play teams from CUSA then you’ll see them on the schedule.

Exactly. If La Tech has an opening and USM has an opening, I would hope they'd schedule a game against each other. Same with UTEP or any of the Texas schools that are leaving.

Hell I still would like to hold the Halloween date and do the Orange and Black game against UTEP again. I thought it was a cool idea.
02-03-2022 10:34 AM
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dawgonit Offline
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Post: #31
RE: What is a fair amount to release ODU USM and Marshall?
(02-03-2022 10:26 AM)GreenBison Wrote:  
(02-02-2022 11:44 PM)Nugget49er Wrote:  One way to look at this is that there are 9 teams leaving CUSA that could part as friends and perhaps there are future scheduling opportunities there, or CUSA could really stick it to them and CUSA's OOC games will be against the SWAC.

CUSA burned the bridge with ESPN and now they're burning a bridge with the SBC 3. Heck, ESPN needs the 2022 schedule ASAP and CUSA is holding it up. Not a good look in my opinion, I'm sure ESPN is taking notes.

I wouldn't say holding members to their contracts as burning bridges. Having 3 members leave makes the conference worse for the remaining members- the conference has no reason to just willingly let that to happen without compensation. Since ESPN is very antsy to make this happen, it seems that CUSA would hold some leverage and is possibly showing some initiative for once but it's also Judy running it so who really knows.
02-03-2022 10:36 AM
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gdunn Offline
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Post: #32
RE: What is a fair amount to release ODU USM and Marshall?
(02-03-2022 10:27 AM)ESE84 Wrote:  
(02-03-2022 10:12 AM)gdunn Wrote:  
(02-03-2022 10:09 AM)DogsWin1 Wrote:  
(02-03-2022 10:00 AM)gdunn Wrote:  At some point it could be the teams leave and tell CUSA we'll see you in court.
I hope they do. They will definitely be 'seen in court' for their willful breach of contract.

Definitely will. And during the case it'll be shown they tried to negotiate the office wouldn't budge, and never enforced bylaws until now. That won't bode well for CUSA.

I figure what's happening now is grandstanding and trying to squeeze blood out of a turnip.

And to pay for the court costs where do you think that money is coming from? That's right the distributions from the 9 teams leaving which means the remaining 5 get a smaller piece of the fees.

I agree with what you say above. If the parties are rational, those legal fees will be factored into the settlement discussions. I wonder if the bylaws require legal matters to be settled under Texas law? Just a guess that Marshall, ODU, and USM would want to avoid litigation in Texas.
I don't know. That's why I feel like it may not be a court thing, but maybe an arbitration thing.

I feel like right now one side is trying to be rational and the other not. And they have every right to be stubborn.
02-03-2022 10:36 AM
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gdunn Offline
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Post: #33
RE: What is a fair amount to release ODU USM and Marshall?
(02-03-2022 10:30 AM)ESE84 Wrote:  
(02-03-2022 10:26 AM)GreenBison Wrote:  
(02-02-2022 11:44 PM)Nugget49er Wrote:  One way to look at this is that there are 9 teams leaving CUSA that could part as friends and perhaps there are future scheduling opportunities there, or CUSA could really stick it to them and CUSA's OOC games will be against the SWAC.

CUSA burned the bridge with ESPN and now they're burning a bridge with the SBC 3. Heck, ESPN needs the 2022 schedule ASAP and CUSA is holding it up. Not a good look in my opinion, I'm sure ESPN is taking notes.

Maybe this is the one best shot Judy has of expanding C-USA time slots with ESPN as part of those negotiations.

Maybe ESPN prefers the Sunbelt 3 not leave early, too.
I don't know if ESPN is even part of these discussions.
02-03-2022 10:37 AM
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gdunn Offline
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Post: #34
RE: What is a fair amount to release ODU USM and Marshall?
(02-03-2022 10:36 AM)dawgonit Wrote:  
(02-03-2022 10:26 AM)GreenBison Wrote:  
(02-02-2022 11:44 PM)Nugget49er Wrote:  One way to look at this is that there are 9 teams leaving CUSA that could part as friends and perhaps there are future scheduling opportunities there, or CUSA could really stick it to them and CUSA's OOC games will be against the SWAC.

CUSA burned the bridge with ESPN and now they're burning a bridge with the SBC 3. Heck, ESPN needs the 2022 schedule ASAP and CUSA is holding it up. Not a good look in my opinion, I'm sure ESPN is taking notes.

I wouldn't say holding members to their contracts as burning bridges. Having 3 members leave makes the conference worse for the remaining members- the conference has no reason to just willingly let that to happen without compensation. Since ESPN is very antsy to make this happen, it seems that CUSA would hold some leverage and is possibly showing some initiative for once but it's also Judy running it so who really knows.

So you're saying there's a chance she'll drop the ball? 07-coffee3
02-03-2022 10:38 AM
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dawgonit Offline
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Post: #35
RE: What is a fair amount to release ODU USM and Marshall?
(02-03-2022 10:38 AM)gdunn Wrote:  
(02-03-2022 10:36 AM)dawgonit Wrote:  
(02-03-2022 10:26 AM)GreenBison Wrote:  
(02-02-2022 11:44 PM)Nugget49er Wrote:  One way to look at this is that there are 9 teams leaving CUSA that could part as friends and perhaps there are future scheduling opportunities there, or CUSA could really stick it to them and CUSA's OOC games will be against the SWAC.

CUSA burned the bridge with ESPN and now they're burning a bridge with the SBC 3. Heck, ESPN needs the 2022 schedule ASAP and CUSA is holding it up. Not a good look in my opinion, I'm sure ESPN is taking notes.

I wouldn't say holding members to their contracts as burning bridges. Having 3 members leave makes the conference worse for the remaining members- the conference has no reason to just willingly let that to happen without compensation. Since ESPN is very antsy to make this happen, it seems that CUSA would hold some leverage and is possibly showing some initiative for once but it's also Judy running it so who really knows.

So you're saying there's a chance she'll drop the ball? 07-coffee3

She would have to have some to begin with if she wants to drop one.
02-03-2022 10:40 AM
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forphase1 Offline
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Post: #36
RE: What is a fair amount to release ODU USM and Marshall?
Without being able to actually see the bylaws, we are all just speculating here. But from what I've gathered from various sources here is the problem.

1) The penalty for leaving the conference regardless of time frame is the forfeiture of 2 years of distribution rights. There is no disagreement on this.
2) 14 month notice is supposed to be given. There is no disagreement on this either.
3) If a school wants to leave before the 14 months is up, they are violating the terms of the contract. However, said contract/bylaws does not list a penalty for violating said 14 month notice. Therefore it is debatable just what the penalty is or should be for breaking the contract. IF there is no clear penalty clause, then the usual amount awarded by courts is provable damages, perhaps plus some punitive amount depending on the jurisdiction. I'm not sure where such a lawsuit would be adjudicated, likely Texas, but that also depends on what else is in the contract concerning venues for litigation.
4) Previous patterns of behavior by the schools and conferences. If a party has 15 contracts, but allows 12 of the contracts to be broken without disagreement or penalty, then trying to enforce such a penalty against the remaining 3 has a lesser chance of being held up in court as the behavior of the parties can be used to show what their common business practices were, etc. IF (and I say IF as I'm not privy to the actual details) CUSA has let other teams off of the hook for damages, the the SBC bound schools could potentially use that against CUSA. The devil will be in the details and what had actually previously been done. I know there are articles and beliefs out there on both sides as to what previously departing members did or did not do, but that information will be brought up in legal proceedings if it gets to that point.

So the question is, at least in part, what kind of damages can CUSA prove if the schools leave earlier? Will the media partners withhold some of the money due to less inventory? Will bowls back out? Will the playoff money decrease? Is there a cost in changing schedules? ETC. If there is no clear penalty for breaking the 14 month notice period, these are the kind of damages CUSA would be entitled to, if they can prove them. I personally doubt there is much REAL damages here by the schools leaving 6 months earlier than notice was given, but perhaps CUSA can show some of these damages. Otherwise if there is no penalty in the bylaws, what else really can CUSA claim? There SHOULD have been a penalty put in place, either a flat $X amount or 2x the media payouts or something that could easily be quantified, but it doesn't appear to be the case. I believe if there was a 'if you leave before 14 months then you must cut a $1 million check to CUSA' then either that would have already been paid, a quick compromise would have been found or the schools would have decided that was too rich and stayed for the 14 months. But with it being an open ended question on the cost to leave early, we've got this nasty and ugly fight on what should be paid. If I was one of the attorneys for CUSA, one of the first things I'd do is recommend changing of the bylaws to make an early exit have a clear penalty associated with it. It won't help this situation, but could help any future early departures.
(This post was last modified: 02-03-2022 10:50 AM by forphase1.)
02-03-2022 10:46 AM
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DogsWin1 Offline
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Post: #37
RE: What is a fair amount to release ODU USM and Marshall?
(02-03-2022 10:36 AM)gdunn Wrote:  I don't know. That's why I feel like it may not be a court thing, but maybe an arbitration thing.

I feel like right now one side is trying to be rational and the other not. And they have every right to be stubborn.

Facts: There is a contract that all parties signed. Each party is REQUIRED to live up to their obligations within the contract. Some of the parties want to breach the contract for whatever reason.

The only option the 3 future SBC schools have is to make a settlement offer that is satisfactory to CUSA. CUSA doesn't have to agree to any of it if it doesn't meet their expectations. In that case it goes to court. It's a whole lot easier and less expensive to just live up to your agreed contractual obligations. Its pretty simple really.
02-03-2022 10:47 AM
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mturn017 Offline
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Post: #38
RE: What is a fair amount to release ODU USM and Marshall?
So we’ll play fall sports in CUSA and winter and spring in the Sun Belt. That’s 14 months.
02-03-2022 10:47 AM
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forphase1 Offline
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Post: #39
RE: What is a fair amount to release ODU USM and Marshall?
(02-03-2022 10:47 AM)DogsWin1 Wrote:  
(02-03-2022 10:36 AM)gdunn Wrote:  I don't know. That's why I feel like it may not be a court thing, but maybe an arbitration thing.

I feel like right now one side is trying to be rational and the other not. And they have every right to be stubborn.

Facts: There is a contract that all parties signed. Each party is REQUIRED to live up to their obligations within the contract. Some of the parties want to breach the contract for whatever reason.

The only option the 3 future SBC schools have is to make a settlement offer that is satisfactory to CUSA. CUSA doesn't have to agree to any of it if it doesn't meet their expectations. In that case it goes to court. It's a whole lot easier and less expensive to just live up to your agreed contractual obligations. Its pretty simple really.

You aren't wrong, but it all comes down to the amount CUSA will be satisfied with. Since the contract does not state an amount to be paid for leaving early, what amount is right is debatable. In court CUSA would have to show what damages are being caused by said breach of contract, and that will be the basis for the dollar amount. If CUSA is only going to have, say, $250k in damages, but is demanding the schools pay $1M to leave, then it's going to go to court as CUSA isn't being reasonable in the amount they are expecting versus the actual damages. So it all comes down to the numbers, and how much each side is willing to compromise to avoid litigation. In the scenario above with 250k damages and CUSA wanting 1M, I think a number between those two could be reached to avoid taking it to court. But if neither side will budge, then litigation may end up being the only solution. I hope it doesn't come to that, but the longer this drags on the uglier it could get.

NOTE: I clearly do not know the actual numbers being discussed. It could be less than I was using for an example or it could be considerably more.
(This post was last modified: 02-03-2022 10:59 AM by forphase1.)
02-03-2022 10:57 AM
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gdunn Offline
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Post: #40
RE: What is a fair amount to release ODU USM and Marshall?
(02-03-2022 10:47 AM)DogsWin1 Wrote:  
(02-03-2022 10:36 AM)gdunn Wrote:  I don't know. That's why I feel like it may not be a court thing, but maybe an arbitration thing.

I feel like right now one side is trying to be rational and the other not. And they have every right to be stubborn.

Facts: There is a contract that all parties signed. Each party is REQUIRED to live up to their obligations within the contract. Some of the parties want to breach the contract for whatever reason.

The only option the 3 future SBC schools have is to make a settlement offer that is satisfactory to CUSA. CUSA doesn't have to agree to any of it if it doesn't meet their expectations. In that case it goes to court. It's a whole lot easier and less expensive to just live up to your agreed contractual obligations. Its pretty simple really.

It'd be easier if we were given the same leeway as others that have left before as well. We're willing to give up the full distribution. We've been here for 27 years, Marshall for 17, and ODU for 9.

Yes it would be easier for us to honor our contract, it would've been easier if CUSA would've made the other schools follow the bylaws and pay what was owed but did not.

Yes it would be easier for us to honor our bylaws if ALL schools past and present were held to the same standard.

So let's stop with what would be easier and look at what they've done all along and now are in a tizzy. We want the same treatment as Louisville, UCF, Houston, ECU, Memphis, etc., have gotten and even the laxed bylaws that UAB got when they dropped football. By the bylaws UAB should've been gone, but CUSA laxed the rules and allowed them to stay and gave them a time limit. That's all we're asking for.

Several fans here keep saying that the SBC 3 are "deadweight, bottom feeders", etc., if that's the case, then why is CUSA so hellbent on making this as difficult as possible, seems to me they'd happily send us on our way, especially if we're willing to pay.
02-03-2022 11:01 AM
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