(01-11-2022 01:20 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(01-11-2022 12:47 PM)nodak651 Wrote:  With the Horizon losing its Chicago presence. How desirable does this league remain to Milwaukee and Green Bay? Now that St. Thomas is in the Twin Cities, would the Wisconsin schools consider a Summit invite at this point, if offered? Travel to the Dakota schools seems to be about 7-8 hours for them and the don't have to drive through Chicago or around that big lake to get there? I'm not proposing this happens, just asking if there would be any mutual interest. Are the Wisconsin schools gung-ho for the Horizon League?

There would be no interest from UWM/UWGB in the Summit. They are way more culturally/institutionally similar to the Horizon with that league being all urban/suburban great lakes region schools.

Also, it's a lot easier to fly cheaper to Horizon locations from MKE/GB.

Furthermore, the great lakes region is where they recruit students. They don't pull students from the Dakotas/Omaha/KC.

And the Horizon's closer to UWM anyway -- the entire Horizon is a 4.5-8.5 hour drive from Milwaukee.

Kinda what I was thinking but thank you for obliging me.

(01-11-2022 01:26 PM)nodak651 Wrote:  

(01-11-2022 01:20 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(01-11-2022 12:47 PM)nodak651 Wrote:  With the Horizon losing its Chicago presence. How desirable does this league remain to Milwaukee and Green Bay? Now that St. Thomas is in the Twin Cities, would the Wisconsin schools consider a Summit invite at this point, if offered? Travel to the Dakota schools seems to be about 7-8 hours for them and the don't have to drive through Chicago or around that big lake to get there? I'm not proposing this happens, just asking if there would be any mutual interest. Are the Wisconsin schools gung-ho for the Horizon League?

There would be no interest from UWM/UWGB in the Summit. They are way more culturally/institutionally similar to the Horizon with that league being all urban/suburban great lakes region schools.

Also, it's a lot easier to fly cheaper to Horizon locations from MKE/GB.

Furthermore, the great lakes region is where they recruit students. They don't pull students from the Dakotas/Omaha/KC.

And the Horizon's closer to UWM anyway -- the entire Horizon is a 4.5-8.5 hour drive from Milwaukee.

Kinda what I was thinking but thank you for obliging me.

Yeah, I think a lot of people totally underestimate how far the Dakotas are from the Great Lakes portion of the Midwest.

If you're driving, it takes an hour *less* to drive from Milwaukee to Nashville (much less the cities within the Horizon League footprint) than it takes to go from Milwaukee to Grand Forks. That's not to mention easier plane flight options, too.

(01-11-2022 01:24 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(01-11-2022 12:57 PM)Bogg Wrote:  

(01-11-2022 12:47 PM)nodak651 Wrote:  With the Horizon losing its Chicago presence. How desirable does this league remain to Milwaukee and Green Bay? Now that St. Thomas is in the Twin Cities, would the Wisconsin schools consider a Summit invite at this point, if offered? Travel to the Dakota schools seems to be about 7-8 hours for them and the don't have to drive through Chicago or around that big lake to get there? I'm not proposing this happens, just asking if there would be any mutual interest. Are the Wisconsin schools gung-ho for the Horizon League?

Seems likelier that Western Illinois looks to the Horizon for the Midwest footprint that the OVC would have offered without any of the football baggage, if you believe they'd prefer to keep football in the MVFC. The Horizon's worst-case scenario should be one of the non-football OVC teams if they had to, don't think they'll have to go the route of D-2 call-ups.

Summit should be looking very hard at all of Mankato/St Cloud/Duluth, though, and if either of Green Bay or Milwaukee are interested (I doubt it), then by all means.

The Horizon won't be interested in WIU. WIU is a perennial 300+ school located in a very, very remote small town who's culturally a football school. The Horizon is all urban/suburban schools - they'll target a Bellarmine or Southern Indiana, who are culturally basketball schools in larger (Louisville) or mid-sized (Evansville) cities.

If the Horizon dips into IL, they'll target SIUE, who's near St Louis and is way healthier institutionally.

Southern Indiana I have been. Its a neat little campus but its hardly downtown Evansville.

Bellarmine I have also been. It has the feel of a quality private school. That one is well within the Louisville city limits.

Also another thing about WIU - that arena was built in 1964 and IT SHOWS. I’ve seen games there and it’s like you’re in a dungeon. It’s one thing for a league on life support like the OVC to add them. It’s another for a stable league like the Horizon - Horizon officials would let out a horrifying scream if they walked into Western Hall on a site visit.

(01-11-2022 01:24 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  The Horizon won't be interested in WIU. WIU is a perennial 300+ school located in a very, very remote small town who's culturally a football school. The Horizon is all urban/suburban schools - they'll target a Bellarmine or Southern Indiana, who are culturally basketball schools in larger (Louisville) or mid-sized (Evansville) cities.

If the Horizon dips into IL, they'll target SIUE, who's near St Louis and is way healthier institutionally.

Still likelier that the Summit would lose a school to the Horizon than the Wisconsin schools leaving the Horizon for the Summit. Augustana and/or further expansion in Minnesota seems like the Summit's future. The next frontier following full Minnesota expansion, if the Summit is serious about running their own hockey conference: the Upper Peninsula.

St. Thomas to Horizon might not be farfetch either.

(01-11-2022 01:55 PM)Bogg Wrote:  

(01-11-2022 01:24 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  The Horizon won't be interested in WIU. WIU is a perennial 300+ school located in a very, very remote small town who's culturally a football school. The Horizon is all urban/suburban schools - they'll target a Bellarmine or Southern Indiana, who are culturally basketball schools in larger (Louisville) or mid-sized (Evansville) cities.

If the Horizon dips into IL, they'll target SIUE, who's near St Louis and is way healthier institutionally.

Still likelier that the Summit would lose a school to the Horizon than the Wisconsin schools leaving the Horizon for the Summit. Augustana and/or further expansion in Minnesota seems like the Summit's future. The next frontier following full Minnesota expansion, if the Summit is serious about running their own hockey conference: the Upper Peninsula.

I would love to see Minnesota St in the Summit. Even though I doubt Minnesota-Duluth or Northern Michigan (Superior Dome!) would ever be options, that would be awesome to see the UP frontier explored in the D1 ranks.

NMU was home to Steve Mariucci and Tom Izzo, simultaneously IIRC. There's even a small town you'll drive through on the UP where they have "hometown of Steve Mariucci and Tom Izzo" signs everywhere. It's quite fascinating. I want to say NMU won a football national championship at some point that coincided with Mariucci, and the competition at the time was much steeper than what NMU faces in D2 today.

(01-11-2022 01:15 PM)schmolik Wrote:  One of the interesting recent moves IMO was Robert Morris, an "Eastern" school moving to the Horizon League. Pittsburgh's kind of on the cusp of the East and Midwest (the Pirates are in the NL Central and the Steelers are in the AFC North) but the Horizon is IMO a clear upgrade over the Northeast Conference. St. Francis is a nearby school to Robert Morris and could be a travel partner and adding another "Eastern" school could distinguish the Horizon League over other Midwestern conferences although the last time St. Francis made the NCAA Men's Tournament was 1991. They could also try for the MAAC Buffalo area schools, Niagara and Canisius. They're probably closer to Cleveland State and Youngstown State than many of the Metro Atlantic schools. I'd probably just add nobody and stick with an 11 team conference. Why add a school that was Division 2 a few years ago?

I'm not sure about that, I think the Western New York schools are still oriented east in terms of where their student body comes from and where their alumni go. Example, not much going on in Ohio here: https://www.canisius.edu/connect-engage/...l-chapters

Robert Morris got a competition upgrade by doing Horizon + Big South football instead of the NEC. Metro Atlantic to Horizon is roughly lateral and neither of those schools have football programs to think about.

(01-11-2022 01:55 PM)Bogg Wrote:  

(01-11-2022 01:24 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  The Horizon won't be interested in WIU. WIU is a perennial 300+ school located in a very, very remote small town who's culturally a football school. The Horizon is all urban/suburban schools - they'll target a Bellarmine or Southern Indiana, who are culturally basketball schools in larger (Louisville) or mid-sized (Evansville) cities.

If the Horizon dips into IL, they'll target SIUE, who's near St Louis and is way healthier institutionally.

Still likelier that the Summit would lose a school to the Horizon than the Wisconsin schools leaving the Horizon for the Summit. Augustana and/or further expansion in Minnesota seems like the Summit's future. The next frontier following full Minnesota expansion, if the Summit is serious about running their own hockey conference: the Upper Peninsula.

Yeah, I think most in the Summit have been waiting for WIU to finally pull the trigger. Everyone believes it's in if, not when, type of situation.

I'm not sure there's the political will in MN to help pay for a second D1 public university. With Duluth as part of the UMN system, I can't see them getting the money, SCSU is broke, so that leaves Mankato, errr, "Minnesota State" as the only option, in my opinion. They already have a D1 basketball facility, and they are only an hour from St. Thomas, and in the right direction - South. Their location would help to consolidate the Summit League's footprint, as they are within a 6 hour drive to St. Thomas, Omaha, UMKC, and the 4 Dakota schools. Being only 5 hours from Milwaukee, that could also help if the Summit League tries to go after Milwaukee and Green Bay if the Horizon moves East and the opportunity were to present itself.

That said, Mankato would probably have to drop football or go non scholly. They have an outdated football stadium and they wouldn't have the money to go D1 while competitively all current sports, especially if money needs to be dumped into the football stadium. They also have a strong football tradition, so I don't think that is really in the cards, and I don't think non scholly football would be palatable to them either.

I don't think the Summit would want to add more than one additional MN school, as they may not want to dilute their largest recruiting territory, especially if another D1 football program is in the cards.

If the Summit adds hockey, it would be with current NCHC membership with non Summit schools as affiliates. Maybe St. Thomas and Mankato get added, but there's zero chance that a move like this happens with the intention of added a UP school as a full-on Summit Member for the purposes of hockey. St. Thomas and Mankato/MN State would be stretch as it is. Remember - the NCHC was formed to get away from the schools like those in the UP, and Mankato was never invited, and SCSU was only like a plan B or C invite. These schools are not simply going to sacrifice hockey to the Summit so that it can get 6 Summit league teams into the conference to give the league another sport that qualifies as a Mens Team Sport to the NCAA - it will have to imporove the hockey side of things, and if a school doesn't do that, they will not be added to the hockey conference, and some type of assurances to prevent other Summit schools from forcing this on the hockey schools, hockey will stay in the NCHC. Remember, at a school like UND, hockey brings in more money than basketball does at any Valley school even. They aren't going to sacrifice that program like that.

I've been an advocate for hockey being added to the Summit, but not for the purpose of the Summit getting another Team sport to satisfy the NCAA sponsorship requirements. Instead, I think the Summit should add hockey as a proactive measure to help retain UNO, St. Thomas, and Denver, should other leagues like the MVC or WCC come calling. I think once St. Thomas announces their arena plans, and given their location, they could be palatable to non Summit NCHC members, and an argument could be made for either Mankato, ASU, or Bowling Green as the other school, depending on other circumstances.

Zero chance St. Thomas has any interest in the Horizon League or it's schools, IMO.

Seems to me that if the Horizon is looking to expand, the top 3 schools would be St. Thomas, UMKC and Omaha. They seem to the be the most logical fits. If the League wants to remain in Chicago, the options are limited. I would guess Lewis would be the only realistic candidate. They offer 20 sports including D1 vball. But, they would need a new venue and there are no arenas close to campus. Allstate and Grossinger's are too far.

(01-11-2022 03:05 PM)MU88 Wrote:  Seems to me that if the Horizon is looking to expand, the top 3 schools would be St. Thomas, UMKC and Omaha. They seem to the be the most logical fits. If the League wants to remain in Chicago, the options are limited. I would guess Lewis would be the only realistic candidate. They offer 20 sports including D1 vball. But, they would need a new venue and there are no arenas close to campus. Allstate and Grossinger's are too far.

UST/UNO/UMKC would be a flight to every Horizon school except 2. The Summit is ranked higher than the Horizon.

The Lewis Flyers of Romeoville are well-located, but their MBB budget is only $660k.

Watch Chicago State fall backwards into the perfect league just because everyone wants to recruit Chicago.

(01-11-2022 04:38 PM)Bogg Wrote:  Watch Chicago State fall backwards into the perfect league just because everyone wants to recruit Chicago.

I don't really know that they're worth it. Seems like a financial basketcase that's more likely to drop to D2 or drop athletics altogether than stay in D1.

(01-11-2022 04:49 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(01-11-2022 04:38 PM)Bogg Wrote:  Watch Chicago State fall backwards into the perfect league just because everyone wants to recruit Chicago.

I don't really know that they're worth it. Seems like a financial basketcase that's more likely to drop to D2 or drop athletics altogether than stay in D1.

To be clear, I'm not predicting it, just saying it would be funny. That being said, with Loyola to the A10, UIC apparently to the Valley, and even somewhere like Valpo already in the Valley and NIU in the MAC, Chicago State is pretty much the only game in town if you're a low-major conference looking for a Chicago presence.

There is no word at all of anything by the Horizon. No buzz. Maybe that will change if and when UIC leaves for the MVC. On the other hand they may stay at 11 for awhile, as they were at 11 before they added Robert Morris, and they have been at an odd number more often than not the last decade. They have mostly been very good at not making panic adds (well Ft. Wayne doesn't really fit the profile, but I guess they figured they are in bus trip range of Clevland State and IUPUI.)

While Bellarmine (Louisville) and St. Thomas (St. Paul) fit the urban, within an hour plus from a major airport the league likes, both are transitioning, and won't complete until '24 and '25 respectively. The Horizon has in the past not taken transitioning schools until they have completed (e.g., Northern Kentucky was taken upon their completion). That doesn't mean these are not good fits, just that if the Horizon wants to got there, they will wait a few years before starting the process with one of them.

Looking around at the present, SIU-E and UMKC, if not invited to now or not waiting for a later an invite to the MVC, would seem the most logical immediate potential adds. I think they even looked at SIU-E the last time around. If they feel they must act now to get back to 12, those are the schools I think are most likely to be targeted.

Again, nothing seems to be going on. They may very well just sit at 11 for awhile if UIC leaves.

The Horizon added NKU before they had finished their D1 transition.

(01-11-2022 07:07 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  The Horizon added NKU before they had finished their D1 transition.

Incorrect, they added them immediately after they completed their transition. NKU spent all 4 years of their transition in the Atlantic Sun (now ASUN).

(01-11-2022 08:13 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  

(01-11-2022 07:07 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  The Horizon added NKU before they had finished their D1 transition.

Incorrect, they added them immediately after they completed their transition. NKU spent all 4 years of their transition in the Atlantic Sun (now ASUN).

Incorrect, they added them with one year left to go. Their transition started in 2012 and they joined the Horizon in 2015.

(01-11-2022 05:00 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  On the other hand they may stay at 11 for awhile, as they were at 11 before they added Robert Morris, and they have been at an odd number more often than not the last decade.

They were actually at 10 after adding NKU. Valparaiso was immediately replaced by IUPUI. Fort Wayne and Robert Morris were brought in later simultaneously.

They operated at 9 before NKU (with a Butler/Oakland swap) but haven’t been at 11.

They love the 22-game double round robin instituted last year.

(01-11-2022 09:34 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(01-11-2022 05:00 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  On the other hand they may stay at 11 for awhile, as they were at 11 before they added Robert Morris, and they have been at an odd number more often than not the last decade.

They were actually at 10 after adding NKU. Valparaiso was immediately replaced by IUPUI. Fort Wayne and Robert Morris were brought in later simultaneously.

They operated at 9 before NKU (with a Butler/Oakland swap) but haven’t been at 11.

They love the 22-game double round robin instituted last year.

Looks like Stu needs a fact-checker. ;d