(12-12-2021 07:20 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(12-12-2021 07:15 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(12-12-2021 06:47 PM)OhioBoilermaker Wrote:  In 2019, Pitt spent $1.08 billion on research. Cincinnati spent $529 million. To an academic, there is no comparison: Pitt is a top-of-the-line research university, and Cincinnati is not.

I think you are defaming Cincy.

Yes, Pitt is 15th in total R&D spending (for comparison Duke, Stanford, UNC, Cornell, and MD are 10-14.

While Cincy is only 51, Purdue, Rutgers, Baylor Medical, ASU, UVa, UAB, Utah, Denver Medical, VT, NC State, and Boston U are 40-50. Colorado and Iowa are 52 and 53.

Does that mean Purdue is not "top of the line"?

Where is that line? 10, 25, 50?

Plus UC had a better football program than Purdue.

All time football...
2 UC [2013, 2016]
1 Purdue [2001]

All time hoops...
3 UC [2001, 2004, 2014]
0 Purdue

Good points Dazzle. The State of NC crosses this line with WF, Duke, Elon, and Campbell with a set of scholarships and tax breaks for students from the State of NC. Of course in North Carolina this has to be kept hidden from the general public lest they misunderstand the General Assembly's intentions funneling tax money to these private institutions. The fig leaf used is that all four either have a hospital or an MD, DO, and, or PA program. Funny though how those tax benefits also apply to their private golf courses.

(12-12-2021 10:42 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  

(12-12-2021 07:20 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(12-12-2021 07:15 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(12-12-2021 06:47 PM)OhioBoilermaker Wrote:  In 2019, Pitt spent $1.08 billion on research. Cincinnati spent $529 million. To an academic, there is no comparison: Pitt is a top-of-the-line research university, and Cincinnati is not.

I think you are defaming Cincy.

Yes, Pitt is 15th in total R&D spending (for comparison Duke, Stanford, UNC, Cornell, and MD are 10-14.

While Cincy is only 51, Purdue, Rutgers, Baylor Medical, ASU, UVa, UAB, Utah, Denver Medical, VT, NC State, and Boston U are 40-50. Colorado and Iowa are 52 and 53.

Does that mean Purdue is not "top of the line"?

Where is that line? 10, 25, 50?

Plus UC had a better football program than Purdue.

All time football...
2 UC
1 Purdue

All time hoops...
3 UC
0 Purdue

This UC and Indiana fan did not know. Thanks for posting.

I just want to comment on one comment. Pitt and Villanova were not charter members of the Big East. They still played in the Eastern 8 for a few years before they joined. The original founding members of the Big East were Providence, BC, UConn, Syracuse, St. John’s, Seton Hall and Georgetown.

And BC and Seton Hall were the sloppy seconds after Holy Cross and Rutgers turned down the initial invitation.

(12-12-2021 07:46 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(12-12-2021 07:41 PM)OhioBoilermaker Wrote:  

(12-12-2021 07:20 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  Plus UC had a better football program than Purdue.

So? The first person to walk on the moon and the last person to walk on the moon are both Purdue alumni. Cool facts about our universities are orthogonal to whether or not they are top-of-the-line research universities.

I am quite familiar with Neil Armstrong- he taught Aerospace Engineering at the University of Cincinnati for nearly a decade.

Indeed. Our alumni are heavily purdued for faculty positions!

(12-13-2021 12:13 AM)RutgersMike Wrote:  I just want to comment on one comment. Pitt and Villanova were not charter members of the Big East. They still played in the Eastern 8 for a few years before they joined. The original founding members of the Big East were Providence, BC, UConn, Syracuse, St. John’s, Seton Hall and Georgetown.

Incorrect. VU was an initial invitee and founding member who didn’t join for contractual reasons for the first year. Pitt was invited a year later and is thus not considered to be a founding member.

Oh, and it looks like we lucked out on the Rutgers/SHU thing. As it’s looked for the past 40 or so years.

(12-13-2021 12:32 AM)VCE Wrote:  

(12-13-2021 12:13 AM)RutgersMike Wrote:  I just want to comment on one comment. Pitt and Villanova were not charter members of the Big East. They still played in the Eastern 8 for a few years before they joined. The original founding members of the Big East were Providence, BC, UConn, Syracuse, St. John’s, Seton Hall and Georgetown.

Incorrect. VU was an initial invitee and founding member who didn’t join for contractual reasons for the first year. Pitt was invited a year later and is thus not considered to be a founding member.

Oh, and it looks like we lucked out on the Rutgers/SHU thing. As it’s looked for the past 40 or so years.

My understanding is that the first season of Big East basketball was a 7 team conference. I did not know about Villanova’s situation.

I hope you enjoy “getting the better of the deal” when Seton Hall owns Georgetown for the indefinite future.

(12-12-2021 09:18 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  

(12-12-2021 02:51 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(12-12-2021 02:32 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  

(12-12-2021 11:24 AM)bullet Wrote:  Its very, very different. Pittsburgh is the clear #2 (and maybe until recently #1) in academics in the state. There are only 3 major public universities in Pennsylvania. PSU, Pitt and Temple.

In Ohio, it could be argued on an undergrad level Miami is #1. They are at least #2. They were on the well known "public ivy" list with Michigan, Cal, Texas, William & Mary, etc. Ohio U. and Miami U. are the two oldest public schools in Ohio, preceding Ohio St. by half a century.

In football, Cincinnati until recently was well down the list. Miami, Toledo, Bowling Green were more football schools. Cincinnati was a basketball school with 5 straight final 4s.

Ohio had Kent, Bowling Green, Miami and Ohio in the 4 corners of the state. Toledo, Akron and Cincinnati were private schools originally and converted to state schools in the 50s/60s.

Its just a very different dynamic than in neighboring Pennsylvania or Kentucky.

Clear number two? Ha, I don’t know about that. Pitt is regularly rated as the number one public university in the Northeast by various publications like US News and other publications.

In truth, Pitt and Penn State are very comparable institutions in quality. Don’t get me wrong, they are very different schools, and offer very different student experiences, but they’re both very good schools. I think the alums of both schools would grudgingly acknowledge that of the other.

That is why it is so common to see families here with mixed allegiances. Growing up, more than half the families I knew sent one child to one school and another child to the other school.

Very common. That was the basis of the rivalry – at least in western Pennsylvania. Basically, most of the families had/have ties to both schools. Susie wanted to study engineering, so she went to Penn State. David wanted to be a dentist, so he went to Pitt.

Hell, even in my own family, we are Pitt through and through but my brother-in-law, sister-in-law and my wife are all Penn Staters. Even my childhood best friend is a fanatical Penn State fan and I’ve always been a fanatical Pitt fan. It’s mostly very friendly but no matter what nonsense anyone tries to tell you, whether they play or not, that rivalry is always there – at least in my experience.

In Pittsburgh at least, it usually boils down to the Penn State fans are the people that either went to Penn State or had a relative go to Penn State. It’s almost always a direct connection. Also, not to be stereotypical here but nearly every Italian I knew growing up was a Penn State fan. Pittsburgh is a city with a huge Catholic population so it’s very common for the Irish people in town to be Notre Damers and the Italians to be Penn Staters. Almost everyone else cheers for Pitt.

At least that was always my experience. Then, as you get further on the outskirts of the city, especially to the south, West Virginia becomes more of a factor.

There are certainly exceptions to that rule. For example, I’m as Irish as Patty‘s pig and I cheer for Pitt. However, many in my family, are true blue Golden Domers.

The problem for Pitt from a popularity standpoint is once you get outside of the 7-8 county radius, they all become Penn State fans. Nobody in central Pennsylvania cheers for Pitt. Certainly nobody in eastern Pennsylvania cheers for Pitt (or any other Pittsburgh team).

Understanding all those factors, that is why I was so relieved back in 2012 when I found out that Pitt was going to the ACC. I knew that we didn’t really have any long-standing rivalries with most of the teams in that conference and it would be a cultural change for us to go to a southern-based conference. However, I also know that the Big East was on its last legs and that The Big Ten was not an option. Therefore, ACC was pretty much the best we could realistically hope for and it has basically all worked out. It hasn’t been a perfect marriage by any means but it’s certainly better than the alternative.

Pittsburgh is the Paris of Appalachia.

My wife's family is from NW NC and everyone there either has relatives in Pittsburgh or was associated with Pittsburgh for a period of time in the past, especially during the two World Wars. I find Yinzer's not to be Southern, but neither are they Yankees or "Northerners" per se.

That last paragraph is definitely true. It is really its own place. It’s not anything like Philadelphia or New York and it’s also not like southern cities.

Also, as someone who lived in Ohio for a long time, it’s really not like the Midwest either. That might be the closest comparison but there are definite and undeniable cultural differences.

Pittsburgh is very ethnic. The only Midwestern city that is like it in that regard would be Chicago - also with a huge Polish population.

The biggest one is hard to articulate but very easy to identify. In the Midwest, at least in Ohio, your state identity is as important to you as your civic identity. Depending on where you’re from, it can be more important to you. In Pennsylvania, it’s exactly the opposite. I’ve always thought that was among Penn State‘s biggest problems. They’re very popular everywhere other than Pittsburgh and Philadelphia. They’re popular in the two major cities but nothing along the lines of an Ohio State enjoys. I have always believed that is a cultural issue. Pittsburgh and Philadelphia Sino commonality with the rest of the state, including and especially with each other.

I didn't note a strong state identity when I lived in the midwest. They were almost as much midwesterners as Ohians or Hoosiers. State pride is not ANYWHERE near as pronounced as in the South. There's a Gulf, not just a river between Kentucky and the midwesteern states of Ohio and Indiana.

(12-12-2021 10:23 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(12-12-2021 08:24 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(12-12-2021 05:49 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  

(12-12-2021 03:27 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Paco - to expound on that undeclared Eastern Independent Conference, Pitt played these schools in football over the last 130 years -

West Virginia - 104 times
PSU - 100 times
Syracuse - 77 times
ND - 72 times

That's the "core" of that conference so to speak.

They have played

Miami - 41 times
Navy - 40 times
BC - 32 times
Rutgers - 30 times
Army - 27 times
Temple - 26 times
Duke and Ohio State - 25 times
Nebraska - 24 times

Surprised no Va Tech

Aside from WVU, VT didn’t really have a lot of history with the eastern independents that formed the Big East football conference.

They primarily played ECU, Richmond, William & Mary and then some ACC and SEC teams when they were an independent. Maybe some SC games too. VT was more of a Southern Independent than an Eastern one.

I wouldn't call them a Southern Independent they were charter members of the SAIAA and Southern Conference and that took them from 1911 to 1964. Then Big East Football between 91 and 2003. Back to the group in the ACC from 2004 forward.

So far that's a total of 57 years with their traditional partners, 10 years remaining in a rumped Southern Conference, 12 years in the Big East, and 37 years lost in the wilderness.

You can see that extra time in the Southern Conference and then as an lost independents with their game totals:

UVa 103
VMI 79 (Dropped down effectively in 1954)
William and Mary (Dropped down with the move to 1 A and 1 AA)
WVa 53
Richmond 52 (Same as VMI)
NC State 50
Washington & Lee 48 (Same as VMI)
UNC 44
Miami and Wake Forest 39
FSU 37
Clemson 36

The best analog for VT is Idaho, Oregon, Washington State, and Oregon State. When the PCC collapsed in 1959 and then reformed as the AAWU those four were left out. Over the course of three years the two Oregon Schools and WSU were "readmitted" so to speak.

Yes—they spent time in those conferences but for the decades they spent independent, they played mostly other southern independents and schools in southern conferences, not the northeastern independents that we associate with original BE football.

(12-12-2021 10:44 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Good points Dazzle. The State of NC crosses this line with WF, Duke, Elon, and Campbell with a set of scholarships and tax breaks for students from the State of NC. Of course in North Carolina this has to be kept hidden from the general public lest they misunderstand the General Assembly's intentions funneling tax money to these private institutions. The fig leaf used is that all four either have a hospital or an MD, DO, and, or PA program. Funny though how those tax benefits also apply to their private golf courses.

I did not know that about Duke and Wake.

Thanks for posting, Statefan.

(12-12-2021 10:25 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(12-12-2021 10:13 PM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(12-12-2021 11:24 AM)bullet Wrote:  Its very, very different. Pittsburgh is the clear #2 (and maybe until recently #1) in academics in the state. There are only 3 major public universities in Pennsylvania. *PSU,* Pitt and *Temple.

In Ohio, it could be argued on an undergrad level Miami is #1. They are at least #2. They were on the well known "public ivy" list with Michigan, Cal, Texas, William & Mary, etc. Ohio U. and Miami U. are the two oldest public schools in Ohio, preceding Ohio St. by half a century.

In football, Cincinnati until recently was well down the list. Miami, Toledo, Bowling Green were more football schools. Cincinnati was a basketball school with 5 straight final 4s.

Ohio had Kent, Bowling Green, Miami and Ohio in the 4 corners of the state. Toledo, Akron and Cincinnati were private schools originally and converted to state schools in the 50s/60s.

Its just a very different dynamic than in neighboring Pennsylvania or Kentucky.

*=State related universities. They are not state universities like the University of Illinois, but it can be argued that they really aren't private schools either, although Statefan will argue until he/she is blue in the face that Pitt is a private school.

As for major, actual state universities in the state/Commonwealth of Pennsylvania that honor would go to Slippery Rock University, Indiana University of Pennsylvania, and West Chester University of Pennsylvania, IMHO. They aren't state flagships, but they are more like Troy University, Southern Miss, etc.

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

When you appoint your own board of trustees and when you get less than about 7% of your funding from the State, you are not a public university and Pitt's skirting of open meetings laws just confirms that.

If a woman says she charges for her time at $300 an hour or $1,000 for the entire evening and a woman you know says that her washer and dryer just died and that she can use a new set and that she will spend the week end with you if you go to the Home Depot and get her a new washer and dryer - both women are prostitutes despite any other claim they may or may not make.

What Pitt calls itself is a legal fiction that serves a political purpose in the Commonwealth of PA.

Pitt, Penn St. and Temple are "effectively" the major state universities in Pennsylvania. They are simply structured a little differently, so they are not technically a "state" university. Texas only gets 11% of its funds directly from the state legislature, but its still a state university. Other major flagship research universities are moving in that direction.

Are Louisville or Memphis analogous to UC or Pitt?

(12-13-2021 12:34 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  Are Louisville or Memphis analogous to UC or Pitt?

I think you could draw some analogies between those two and UC, but not Pitt.

(12-13-2021 09:43 AM)bullet Wrote:  I didn't note a strong state identity when I lived in the midwest. They were almost as much midwesterners as Ohians or Hoosiers. State pride is not ANYWHERE near as pronounced as in the South. There's a Gulf, not just a river between Kentucky and the midwesteern states of Ohio and Indiana.

Places like Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Iowa have no shortage of state pride. I do agree that Ohio seems to have more city pride. E.g. people from Columbus really love Columbus.

(12-13-2021 12:45 PM)OhioBoilermaker Wrote:  

(12-13-2021 09:43 AM)bullet Wrote:  I didn't note a strong state identity when I lived in the midwest. They were almost as much midwesterners as Ohians or Hoosiers. State pride is not ANYWHERE near as pronounced as in the South. There's a Gulf, not just a river between Kentucky and the midwesteern states of Ohio and Indiana.

Places like Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Iowa have no shortage of state pride. I do agree that Ohio seems to have more city pride. E.g. people from Columbus really love Columbus.

Cincinnati and Cleveland residents might identify with their cities but central Ohioans identify with the state.

(12-13-2021 12:34 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  Are Louisville or Memphis analogous to UC or Pitt?

UC, UL and UM are all fairly similar. However, UC and UL offer med schools, a major differentiator.

(12-13-2021 01:19 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(12-13-2021 12:45 PM)OhioBoilermaker Wrote:  

(12-13-2021 09:43 AM)bullet Wrote:  I didn't note a strong state identity when I lived in the midwest. They were almost as much midwesterners as Ohians or Hoosiers. State pride is not ANYWHERE near as pronounced as in the South. There's a Gulf, not just a river between Kentucky and the midwesteern states of Ohio and Indiana.

Places like Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Iowa have no shortage of state pride. I do agree that Ohio seems to have more city pride. E.g. people from Columbus really love Columbus.

Cincinnati and Cleveland residents might identify with their cities but central Ohioans identify with the state.

Pretty much. Ask someone where are from in 95% of the state and they will always tell you City, Ohio (I always found that hilarious, as if I thought they might be a Bucyrus or Washington Courthouse in some other state). Ask someone from the cities you mentioned and they simply will say Cincinnati or Cleveland. Old ladies across the state go to craft stores and buy a ton of stuff with the word Ohio on it- not so much in Cincinnati. Those old gals buy stuff that say Cincinnati.

(12-13-2021 01:24 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(12-13-2021 12:34 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  Are Louisville or Memphis analogous to UC or Pitt?

UC, UL and UM are all fairly similar. However, UC and UL offer med schools, a major differentiator.

UC is much larger than the other two and have stronger academic programs; especially in Engineering, Architecture, Design, Business and Law. Memphis had a larger African-American population than the other two (about 1/3 of the students, whereas UC and Louisville are only 10-11% black). UC has a much larger endowment than the other two schools ($1.6B vs Memphis at ~$250M). Cincinnati and Louisville are less of a commuter school than Memphis.

(12-13-2021 01:26 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(12-13-2021 01:19 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(12-13-2021 12:45 PM)OhioBoilermaker Wrote:  

(12-13-2021 09:43 AM)bullet Wrote:  I didn't note a strong state identity when I lived in the midwest. They were almost as much midwesterners as Ohians or Hoosiers. State pride is not ANYWHERE near as pronounced as in the South. There's a Gulf, not just a river between Kentucky and the midwesteern states of Ohio and Indiana.

Places like Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Iowa have no shortage of state pride. I do agree that Ohio seems to have more city pride. E.g. people from Columbus really love Columbus.

Cincinnati and Cleveland residents might identify with their cities but central Ohioans identify with the state.

Pretty much. Ask someone where are from in 95% of the state and they will always tell you City, Ohio (I always found that hilarious, as if I thought they might be a Bucyrus or Washington Courthouse in some other state). Ask someone from the cities you mentioned and they simply will say Cincinnati or Cleveland. Old ladies across the state go to craft stores and buy a ton of stuff with the word Ohio on it- not so much in Cincinnati. Those old gals buy stuff that say Cincinnati.

You always had to say Ohio when mentioning Columbus because not everyone knew where you were referring to. Outside of Ohio, especially before this social media age, Columbus was unknown. There was only the Ohio State University and that's it, a cow town. The city has steadily expanded and added a couple Major League teams and it's fairly well known today. As a matter of fact, restaurant wise, it's second to none!

Cincinnati is it's own thing because of a unique name and the professional sports, especially those Reds! Saying Cincinnati is like saying Madonna, Shaquille, Kobe etc... You only need one name and no more.

Cleveland, for the most part doesn't need Ohio with it except for maybe the south? Cleveland Tennessee?
They too have had a long run of Major league teams that has made then easy to recognize.

By the way, I'd love for Ohio State and Cincinnati to have more games in multiple sports. I think the future may be bright for that happening.