(12-11-2021 02:13 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  

(12-10-2021 07:37 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(12-09-2021 11:32 PM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(12-09-2021 01:32 PM)ken d Wrote:  What makes no sense at all is paying volleyball players, field hockey players and pretty much any players except football players. To me, it doesn't even make sense to be forced to pay basketball players as employees, since they already have viable professional options available to them. Football does not.

I have said for years that I think the NCAA should just get out of the football business entirely if they hope to survive as an institution. That being said, the NCAA and its members have brought this on themselves by not taking affirmative action on this issue sooner. Now they have to face the consequences.

Trying my hardest to hold my anger in, but those young women playing volleyball are giving up their free time that they could use to have fun with friends, go to the beach,mall, etc., or even pursue a relationship that could potentially lead to marriage to play on the volleyball team and take classes. To me, if you are doing that, you are doing a job. Montevallo baseball players were prohibited by their coach from joining any fraternity, they had to do the vast majority of the groundskeeping for the baseball field, and they had go to class, practice, and play in the games!!!
I know, because a lot of my friends were on the Montevallo baseball team, and I even volunteered to help the baseball players with the groundskeeping!!! So I know what I am talking about. Oh, here's the kicker: they all had partial scholarships!!!!

I couldn't disagree more. Those women can still do all those things. They play volleyball because they like to and are good at it. The fact that they get something they value - an education they might not otherwise be able to afford - is icing on the cake. If they are only doing it to earn money, they should probably stop doing it, because enough people aren't going to pay to watch them.

Nobody is exploiting them. Nobody is earning big bucks from their efforts. Only two sports are doing that - football and men's basketball. And the only reason most of the other sports even exist on college campuses is to justify having the first two.

If playing sports in school is a job in college, then it's a job at the high school level as well. I don't hear any calls for paying those athletes. Football players shouldn't be paid because they work hard at their sport. They should be paid because people will pay to see them do it, and football games are entertainment, like movies and video games are entertainment. To say that soon football players will have an employee-employer relationship suggests that this relationship hasn't already existed for many years. That's simply not true. What's different now is that society objects to those employees being exploited with the complicity of a government which has allowed colleges to maintain a fig leaf of amateurism to justify under-paying them.

For some, Division I hockey and soccer provides a way for top talent from around the country to be consolidated for the NHL and MLS to evaluate. Same for the NFL and NBA. Sure, there are many athletes that sign out of high school or are known commodities out of high school but it still does provide a platform.

Division I is not needed for hockey. Guys can play in junior leagues until they are like 21 and most are drafted before they get to college. Beyond that, there are 3 levels of minor league hockey in the US.

NHL-bound hockey players don't have to play college hockey, and many stay in college despite the pro teams wanting them to sign and leave early, with a pro paycheck and signing bonus, yet a ton of these guys choose to stay in college anyway... why? The whole argument that athletes in other sports are some type of indentured servant is tiresome... there are plenty of benefits to playing college sports for "free" (but not really, because there are scholarships, food, cost of attendance, etc). Thousands are in line if the current student athletes boycott. Go ahead and stop playing if college sports are such a burden.

(12-12-2021 03:45 PM)Statefan Wrote:  NC is a right to work State and anything that smells like Unionism is going to be smacked down hard. That's just the politics of it. UNC is under as much political scrutiny as it has had since Reconstruction and I would think any revenue sport athlete that bucks the system is going to wish they were just dealing with the Mafia. You don't bite hands at the plantation or cotton mill.

The Charlotte pro players belong to unions, correct?

The players for North Carolina, LLC and Duke, LLC may also some day as well, if the trend is to detach the sports programs from the universities as separate, non-state owned entities with a licensing agreement.

(12-15-2021 09:40 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(12-12-2021 03:45 PM)Statefan Wrote:  NC is a right to work State and anything that smells like Unionism is going to be smacked down hard. That's just the politics of it. UNC is under as much political scrutiny as it has had since Reconstruction and I would think any revenue sport athlete that bucks the system is going to wish they were just dealing with the Mafia. You don't bite hands at the plantation or cotton mill.

The Charlotte pro players belong to unions, correct?

The players for North Carolina, LLC and Duke, LLC may also some day as well, if the trend is to detach the sports programs from the universities as separate, non-state owned entities with a licensing agreement.

Terry D, I've never witnessed so much denial on this board as we have right now. There has always been denial before realignment moves, but I fully expected that. There remains a large willing suspension of disbelief over what the CFP committee does and since that body changes that's fair game. But the number of heads in the sand over the direction that the SCOTUS is taking over the rights and form of relationships that athletes shall have with schools is staggering.

And when reading threads in which I, or other posters, have posited suggestions of how this will impact the future of the game, and seeing that such posts are wholly ignored while the other thread posters argue esoteric points unrelated to what is actually happening, is surreal.

Maybe our society is input overwhelmed with what China is doing, with our economic concerns, and with COVID, and therefore simply can't handle the change which is being foisted upon a favorite escape, but your remarks above are much closer to the mark than those who are denying and proclaiming business as usual.

Oh well, I've been watching the water temp in the kettle rise and rise, and the frogs still seem cozy! I believe by next summer we will witness a collective mental breakdown.

So those who wish to participate in a pay-to-play football league leave their current conferences to probably for 2 super conferences for football only and become the NFL lite?

Do the teams who wish to remain in the system we have now then become a new division where football only conferences also exists and we see more realignment but the line between "p5" and "g5" seems to become less prominent?

(12-15-2021 12:51 PM)Troy_Fan_15 Wrote:  So those who wish to participate in a pay-to-play football league leave their current conferences to probably for 2 super conferences for football only and become the NFL lite?

Do the teams who wish to remain in the system we have now then become a new division where football only conferences also exists and we see more realignment but the line between "p5" and "g5" seems to become less prominent?

Quite possibly. Once the pay for play schools are separated from those choosing scholarships and NIL, then those choosing scholarships and NIL can exist only because athletes will have the choice for pay for play. Pay for play conferences, or leagues, could create a legal space for scholarship only schools. And this is if the SCOTUS says players are employees of the schools.

In that world you may have 3 divisions arise: pay for play, scholarship and NIL, and strict amateurism. I should think this would reshape everything we currently have.

(12-15-2021 12:37 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(12-15-2021 09:40 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(12-12-2021 03:45 PM)Statefan Wrote:  NC is a right to work State and anything that smells like Unionism is going to be smacked down hard. That's just the politics of it. UNC is under as much political scrutiny as it has had since Reconstruction and I would think any revenue sport athlete that bucks the system is going to wish they were just dealing with the Mafia. You don't bite hands at the plantation or cotton mill.

The Charlotte pro players belong to unions, correct?

The players for North Carolina, LLC and Duke, LLC may also some day as well, if the trend is to detach the sports programs from the universities as separate, non-state owned entities with a licensing agreement.

Terry D, I've never witnessed so much denial on this board as we have right now. There has always been denial before realignment moves, but I fully expected that. There remains a large willing suspension of disbelief over what the CFP committee does and since that body changes that's fair game. But the number of heads in the sand over the direction that the SCOTUS is taking over the rights and form of relationships that athletes shall have with schools is staggering.

And when reading threads in which I, or other posters, have posited suggestions of how this will impact the future of the game, and seeing that such posts are wholly ignored while the other thread posters argue esoteric points unrelated to what is actually happening, is surreal.

Maybe our society is input overwhelmed with what China is doing, with our economic concerns, and with COVID, and therefore simply can't handle the change which is being foisted upon a favorite escape, but your remarks above are much closer to the mark than those who are denying and proclaiming business as usual.

Oh well, I've been watching the water temp in the kettle rise and rise, and the frogs still seem cozy! I believe by next summer we will witness a collective mental breakdown.

As an ND fan, I am concerned with what the Holy Cross Fathers will do in the new environment.

(Not from any "holier than thou" attitude but from the statements of Jenkins and Swarbrick, plus the historical "conflict" between academics/football at ND)

But, I sure am aware of the seismic changes that have happened and will likely happen on the legal front.......if not, I should surrender my law licenses.

(12-15-2021 01:52 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(12-15-2021 12:37 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(12-15-2021 09:40 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(12-12-2021 03:45 PM)Statefan Wrote:  NC is a right to work State and anything that smells like Unionism is going to be smacked down hard. That's just the politics of it. UNC is under as much political scrutiny as it has had since Reconstruction and I would think any revenue sport athlete that bucks the system is going to wish they were just dealing with the Mafia. You don't bite hands at the plantation or cotton mill.

The Charlotte pro players belong to unions, correct?

The players for North Carolina, LLC and Duke, LLC may also some day as well, if the trend is to detach the sports programs from the universities as separate, non-state owned entities with a licensing agreement.

Terry D, I've never witnessed so much denial on this board as we have right now. There has always been denial before realignment moves, but I fully expected that. There remains a large willing suspension of disbelief over what the CFP committee does and since that body changes that's fair game. But the number of heads in the sand over the direction that the SCOTUS is taking over the rights and form of relationships that athletes shall have with schools is staggering.

And when reading threads in which I, or other posters, have posited suggestions of how this will impact the future of the game, and seeing that such posts are wholly ignored while the other thread posters argue esoteric points unrelated to what is actually happening, is surreal.

Maybe our society is input overwhelmed with what China is doing, with our economic concerns, and with COVID, and therefore simply can't handle the change which is being foisted upon a favorite escape, but your remarks above are much closer to the mark than those who are denying and proclaiming business as usual.

Oh well, I've been watching the water temp in the kettle rise and rise, and the frogs still seem cozy! I believe by next summer we will witness a collective mental breakdown.

As an ND fan, I am concerned with what the Holy Cross Fathers will do in the new environment.

But, I sure am aware of the seismic changes that have happened and will likely happen on the legal front.......if not, I should surrender my law licenses.

If what is happening during signing day doesn't grab their attention nothing will. The impact of corporate money selecting winners and losers in recruiting is palpable, and it is only a scratch on the surface of what is coming.

I fully grasp your concern over decisions rendered by the Holy Cross Fathers. Their perspective will be set against so much more than the average vista upon which the decisions of State institutions will be made.

(12-15-2021 01:58 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(12-15-2021 01:52 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(12-15-2021 12:37 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(12-15-2021 09:40 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(12-12-2021 03:45 PM)Statefan Wrote:  NC is a right to work State and anything that smells like Unionism is going to be smacked down hard. That's just the politics of it. UNC is under as much political scrutiny as it has had since Reconstruction and I would think any revenue sport athlete that bucks the system is going to wish they were just dealing with the Mafia. You don't bite hands at the plantation or cotton mill.

The Charlotte pro players belong to unions, correct?

The players for North Carolina, LLC and Duke, LLC may also some day as well, if the trend is to detach the sports programs from the universities as separate, non-state owned entities with a licensing agreement.

Terry D, I've never witnessed so much denial on this board as we have right now. There has always been denial before realignment moves, but I fully expected that. There remains a large willing suspension of disbelief over what the CFP committee does and since that body changes that's fair game. But the number of heads in the sand over the direction that the SCOTUS is taking over the rights and form of relationships that athletes shall have with schools is staggering.

And when reading threads in which I, or other posters, have posited suggestions of how this will impact the future of the game, and seeing that such posts are wholly ignored while the other thread posters argue esoteric points unrelated to what is actually happening, is surreal.

Maybe our society is input overwhelmed with what China is doing, with our economic concerns, and with COVID, and therefore simply can't handle the change which is being foisted upon a favorite escape, but your remarks above are much closer to the mark than those who are denying and proclaiming business as usual.

Oh well, I've been watching the water temp in the kettle rise and rise, and the frogs still seem cozy! I believe by next summer we will witness a collective mental breakdown.

As an ND fan, I am concerned with what the Holy Cross Fathers will do in the new environment.

But, I sure am aware of the seismic changes that have happened and will likely happen on the legal front.......if not, I should surrender my law licenses.

If what is happening during signing day doesn't grab their attention nothing will. The impact of corporate money selecting winners and losers in recruiting is palpable, and it is only a scratch on the surface of what is coming.

ND lost at least one player directly due to NIL "bargaining". They are aware of it.

I am just not sure how much they want to play in that sandbox.

Looks like more Tax dollars to the Federal Government.

(12-15-2021 02:01 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(12-15-2021 01:58 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(12-15-2021 01:52 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(12-15-2021 12:37 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(12-15-2021 09:40 AM)TerryD Wrote:  The Charlotte pro players belong to unions, correct?

The players for North Carolina, LLC and Duke, LLC may also some day as well, if the trend is to detach the sports programs from the universities as separate, non-state owned entities with a licensing agreement.

Terry D, I've never witnessed so much denial on this board as we have right now. There has always been denial before realignment moves, but I fully expected that. There remains a large willing suspension of disbelief over what the CFP committee does and since that body changes that's fair game. But the number of heads in the sand over the direction that the SCOTUS is taking over the rights and form of relationships that athletes shall have with schools is staggering.

And when reading threads in which I, or other posters, have posited suggestions of how this will impact the future of the game, and seeing that such posts are wholly ignored while the other thread posters argue esoteric points unrelated to what is actually happening, is surreal.

Maybe our society is input overwhelmed with what China is doing, with our economic concerns, and with COVID, and therefore simply can't handle the change which is being foisted upon a favorite escape, but your remarks above are much closer to the mark than those who are denying and proclaiming business as usual.

Oh well, I've been watching the water temp in the kettle rise and rise, and the frogs still seem cozy! I believe by next summer we will witness a collective mental breakdown.

As an ND fan, I am concerned with what the Holy Cross Fathers will do in the new environment.

But, I sure am aware of the seismic changes that have happened and will likely happen on the legal front.......if not, I should surrender my law licenses.

If what is happening during signing day doesn't grab their attention nothing will. The impact of corporate money selecting winners and losers in recruiting is palpable, and it is only a scratch on the surface of what is coming.

ND lost at least one player due to NIL "bargaining". They are aware of it.

I am just not sure how much they want to play in that sandbox.

Quite oddly, I suspect these kinds of flips will kill the interest of fans quicker than the employee / employer relationship. Had the latter arrived before the former NIL governance might have been possible. But the SCOTUS released a bad genie before setting the scope of the legal parameters.

Couple this with the passing of Boomers and I believe it ends very poorly for the game, which ultimately means even for the athletes.

Do it like the Service Academies do..

There's no more scholarship.. Here's your pay.. With this money you must pay your room, board, tuition, books, lab fees, and purchase all haircuts (you laugh but they get free haircuts at some universities), and all athletic apparel.

If you run out of money, you do without, kinda like real life.

(12-09-2021 01:21 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(12-08-2021 11:41 PM)chester Wrote:  

(12-08-2021 08:36 PM)Maize Wrote:  

Double whammy

Johnson v NCAA (FLSA case)

NLRB 25-CA-286101 (NLRA case)

I'm very interested in seeing how the Alliance is going to approach this case, to say the least!!! Like I said before, the athletes, at least partially, made the coaches who they are, and that includes salary too!!!!. JRSec has made this same statement before, and he even predicted this consequence!!!!!! Seriously, and this goes for G5ers too: read JRSec's posts on this on the P5 board, the SEC board, and I am pretty sure he has posted something similar on this board as well. Bubba Cunningham is basically telling us, the common man, John Doe/Jane Doe sports fan, what is already known in the SEC and E$PN.

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

Well, the legal defenses don't look promising, so I'm sure the Alliance is hard at work lobbying Congress. They said they would. And the SEC wants Congress to "step in and provide clear and uniform legal standards consistent with recent court decisions [that found college athletes are not employees]." Disappointing...

(12-09-2021 02:59 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  Agreed MattBrownEP!!

Also click on the link for the Johnson vs the NCAA FLSA case. Carefully read who the defendants are. There are no defendants from the SEC!!!. That is very interesting. Unfortunately, my second favorite team is involved, the Oregon Ducks, part of the Alliance.

That case affects all of Division I, though. (Guess it may indirectly affect others, depending.) The judge has found it plausible plaintiffs from the five co-defendant schools named in the first amended complaint (all DI) are/were employees of their schools and he's also found it plausible they are/were jointly employed by the NCAA. Since other DI athletes are similarly situated to plaintiffs, plaintiffs have asked the judge to conditionally certify 15 classes: One for athletes at each of the now 14 co-defendant schools and one for all of the estimated 200,000+ DI athletes who work(ed) from April 6, 2017 to the present. (Source)

Should the classes be certified, those athletes will be notifed of the suit so they can opt in to it, and if defendants later lose, all athletes who opted-in will be owed back pay plus an equal amount in damages.

Then moving forward, all DI schools would have to continue paying their athletes at least a minimum wage, including any athletes who did not opt-in to the suit. That is unless they do whatever it takes to disqualify their athletes as employees. Judging from the multi-factor test the judge used to determine the plausibility that plaintiffs are/were employees of their schools, that would mean reducing by some degree their control of athletes and their time. (See pages 24-30 here.)

(12-08-2021 10:10 PM)k-vegasbuc Wrote:  It's terrible what college sports is becoming. I believe that's a huge reason older coaches like Roy Williams and Coach K are getting out, they can't stand coaching these spoiled entitled players.

May also be they don't like players cutting into their revenue streams.

(12-15-2021 02:07 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(12-15-2021 02:01 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(12-15-2021 01:58 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(12-15-2021 01:52 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(12-15-2021 12:37 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Terry D, I've never witnessed so much denial on this board as we have right now. There has always been denial before realignment moves, but I fully expected that. There remains a large willing suspension of disbelief over what the CFP committee does and since that body changes that's fair game. But the number of heads in the sand over the direction that the SCOTUS is taking over the rights and form of relationships that athletes shall have with schools is staggering.

And when reading threads in which I, or other posters, have posited suggestions of how this will impact the future of the game, and seeing that such posts are wholly ignored while the other thread posters argue esoteric points unrelated to what is actually happening, is surreal.

Maybe our society is input overwhelmed with what China is doing, with our economic concerns, and with COVID, and therefore simply can't handle the change which is being foisted upon a favorite escape, but your remarks above are much closer to the mark than those who are denying and proclaiming business as usual.

Oh well, I've been watching the water temp in the kettle rise and rise, and the frogs still seem cozy! I believe by next summer we will witness a collective mental breakdown.

As an ND fan, I am concerned with what the Holy Cross Fathers will do in the new environment.

But, I sure am aware of the seismic changes that have happened and will likely happen on the legal front.......if not, I should surrender my law licenses.

If what is happening during signing day doesn't grab their attention nothing will. The impact of corporate money selecting winners and losers in recruiting is palpable, and it is only a scratch on the surface of what is coming.

ND lost at least one player due to NIL "bargaining". They are aware of it.

I am just not sure how much they want to play in that sandbox.

Quite oddly, I suspect these kinds of flips will kill the interest of fans quicker than the employee / employer relationship. Had the latter arrived before the former NIL governance might have been possible. But the SCOTUS released a bad genie before setting the scope of the legal parameters.

Couple this with the passing of Boomers and I believe it ends very poorly for the game, which ultimately means even for the athletes.

Correct.
When institutions find themselves with fewer dollars at their disposal, marginal athletes will no longer be afforded the opportunities that are available to them now. The money will only flow to the super talented and the marginal will be forced into the workplace or having to find another way to fund a college education.
I would imagine that many football programs will start to shut down even further reducing the opportunities for lesser talented players.

(12-16-2021 08:49 AM)goodknightfl Wrote:  

(12-08-2021 10:10 PM)k-vegasbuc Wrote:  It's terrible what college sports is becoming. I believe that's a huge reason older coaches like Roy Williams and Coach K are getting out, they can't stand coaching these spoiled entitled players.

May also be they don't like players cutting into their revenue streams.

It has nothing to do with their revenue streams, coaches are making more now than they ever have. And remember most of this money that athletic programs are making are being reinvested in the athletes in the form of new facilities and amenities. I've toured several (Clemson's is very impressive), trust me these athletes are being treated like kings.

(12-16-2021 09:09 AM)XLance Wrote:  

(12-15-2021 02:07 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(12-15-2021 02:01 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(12-15-2021 01:58 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(12-15-2021 01:52 PM)TerryD Wrote:  As an ND fan, I am concerned with what the Holy Cross Fathers will do in the new environment.

But, I sure am aware of the seismic changes that have happened and will likely happen on the legal front.......if not, I should surrender my law licenses.

If what is happening during signing day doesn't grab their attention nothing will. The impact of corporate money selecting winners and losers in recruiting is palpable, and it is only a scratch on the surface of what is coming.

ND lost at least one player due to NIL "bargaining". They are aware of it.

I am just not sure how much they want to play in that sandbox.

Quite oddly, I suspect these kinds of flips will kill the interest of fans quicker than the employee / employer relationship. Had the latter arrived before the former NIL governance might have been possible. But the SCOTUS released a bad genie before setting the scope of the legal parameters.

Couple this with the passing of Boomers and I believe it ends very poorly for the game, which ultimately means even for the athletes.

Correct.
When institutions find themselves with fewer dollars at their disposal, marginal athletes will no longer be afforded the opportunities that are available to them now. The money will only flow to the super talented and the marginal will be forced into the workplace or having to find another way to fund a college education.
I would imagine that many football programs will start to shut down even further reducing the opportunities for lesser talented players.

Worse, i think it will be devastating for non-revenue programs where you have real "student"-athletes and not athletes in training.