If the playoffs is not expanded, the ACC may have their best shot at expansion itself. With only four playoff spots and a 16-team sec, strength of schedule will be the critical factor to make the playoff. The ACC may have the most leverage it will ever have to entice Notre Dame to join the conference. As always it will be a very long shot, but there are two realistic paths that the ACC could take.

1. The ACC could drop the number of conference games to five or six which would allow ND to continue existing rivalries, and grant existing ACC members more non-conference games to put on television. This would give to Notre Dame conference membership without changing anything with regard to their scheduling. Pairing Cincinnati creates a geographic bridge to Notre Dame and expands conference footprint.

2. Use conference expansion to nullify the existing deal, and force ND to the table for full membership. Going to 15 with Cinci would be seen as a strength add in the currrent environment.

CFB Playoff not expanding of course a prerequisite for these paths. Thoughts?

Responding before reading: No.

(12-06-2021 07:38 AM)LeeNobody Wrote:  If the playoffs is not expanded, the ACC may have their best shot at expansion itself. With only four playoff spots and a 16-team sec, strength of schedule will be the critical factor to make the playoff. The ACC may have the most leverage it will ever have to entice Notre Dame to join the conference. As always it will be a very long shot, but there are two realistic paths that the ACC could take.

1. The ACC could drop the number of conference games to five or six which would allow ND to continue existing rivalries, and grant existing ACC members more non-conference games to put on television. This would give to Notre Dame Commerce membership without changing anything with regard to their scheduling.
Pairing Cincinnati creates a geographic bridge to Notre Dame and expand conference footprint.

Tearing up the ACC football conference isn't much of a way to get Notre Dame to join the ACC football conference.

Quote:2. Use conference expansion to nullify the existing deal, and force ND to the table for full membership.

Um, conference expansion doesn't nullify anything. And if the ND-ACC contract *were* nullified, I'm not sure the ACC has the stronger hand in that negotiation. The biggest drain on ND's strength-of-schedule is the ACC games. The biggest chip the ACC brings to the table for Notre Dame is non-BCS bowl access, and Notre Dame could make an alliance of convenience with some other P5 conference for bowls.

Quote:Going to 15 with Cinci would be seen as a strength add in the currrent environment.

CFB Playoff not expanding of course a prerequisite for these paths. Thoughts?

REsponse after reading: No.

No. There is no such thing as a “pressure play” on Notre Dame.

They want independence IN AND OF ITSELF. The ACC could add USC, Stanford and Navy yet ND still wouldn’t join it. I don’t understand why college sports fans continue to not understand this fact.

Any expansion “plan” that involves convincing ND of doing anything isn’t a plan.

(12-06-2021 08:46 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  No. There is no such thing as a “pressure play” on Notre Dame.

They want independence IN AND OF ITSELF. The ACC could add USC, Stanford and Navy yet ND still wouldn’t join it. I don’t understand why college sports fans continue to not understand this fact.

Any expansion “plan” that involves convincing ND of doing anything isn’t a plan.

Yes, IIRC, the only thing ND has mentioned that would dislodge them from independence is if the playoff structure was changed such that an independent would be at a severe, almost prohibitive, disadvantage in being able to gain entry.

So if the ACC wants to compel ND to join, they should work on an expanded playoff proposal that does that. Like say an 8 team playoff with only two at-large.

(12-06-2021 08:46 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  No. There is no such thing as a “pressure play” on Notre Dame.

I'm sorry, absolute statements just bring out the "accckkctuaaaally" guy in me. But that guy can clarify some stuff sometimes.

What would a pressure play on Notre Dame look like? Something like 10 years down the road the SEC decides to go for a full breakaway and provisionally invite USC Ohio State Michigan and Notre Dame to fill out the roster of 20.

At that point Notre Dame is feeling some pressure to defect from the NCAA and football independence to the new SEC World College Football championship.

How does any of that put pressure on ND? The only way ND joins the ACC is if you have to be a conference champion to get in the playoffs. 1 or 2 at-larges are enough for ND to maintain independence.

(12-06-2021 09:08 AM)ChrisLords Wrote:  How does any of that put pressure on ND? The only way ND joins the ACC is if you have to be a conference champion to get in the playoffs. 1 or 2 at-larges are enough for ND to maintain independence.

What you just described is a 4 team playoff with a 16 SEC. The playoff will likely include 2 SEC teams every year in a 4 team playoff. A 1 loss b12, b1g, pac12, ACC champ would have an advantage over a 1 loss ND, as we have just seen. It is quaint that one loss ND missed the playoff. What if it was routine.

(12-06-2021 08:58 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(12-06-2021 08:46 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  No. There is no such thing as a “pressure play” on Notre Dame.

They want independence IN AND OF ITSELF. The ACC could add USC, Stanford and Navy yet ND still wouldn’t join it. I don’t understand why college sports fans continue to not understand this fact.

Any expansion “plan” that involves convincing ND of doing anything isn’t a plan.

Yes, IIRC, the only thing ND has mentioned that would dislodge them from independence is if the playoff structure was changed such that an independent would be at a severe, almost prohibitive, disadvantage in being able to gain entry.

So if the ACC wants to compel ND to join, they should work on an expanded playoff proposal that does that. Like say an 8 team playoff with only two at-large.

I did say it was a long shot, but you have to pursue long shots when the conference is going to be lapped in broadcast revenue. I have argued that 6-2 is the best for the Alliance conferences to level the playing field, but the SEC knows this too and has opposed it. The ACC can be bold or fade into irrelevance. I hope they opt for boldness.

(12-06-2021 09:16 AM)LeeNobody Wrote:  

(12-06-2021 09:08 AM)ChrisLords Wrote:  How does any of that put pressure on ND? The only way ND joins the ACC is if you have to be a conference champion to get in the playoffs. 1 or 2 at-larges are enough for ND to maintain independence.

What you just described is a 4 team playoff with a 16 SEC. The playoff will likely include 2 SEC teams every year in a 4 team playoff. A 1 loss b12, b1g, pac12, ACC champ would have an advantage over a 1 loss ND, as we have just seen. It is quaint that one loss ND missed the playoff. What if it was routine.

ND just needs to go undefeated if it wants to stay independent and make the playoffs under a four team model.

So, that is the standard and the goal. Do that and get in. Don't do that, then no sale.

No whining about it. Do you see any ND fans whining about "missing" the playoffs ??

Oklahoma, Oklahoma State and Ohio State are in a conference, they all "missed" the playoffs too.

Conference membership is no playoff guarantee for ND. The incremental, possible improvement in playoff odds is not nearly enough for ND to ditch its brand, its identity and the way it runs its football program.

(Quite frankly, I am thrilled that this "rebuilding year" team went 11-1, is ranked #5 in the country, is going to play in the Fiesta Bowl, has the #4 recruiting class---now saved --and has Marcus Freeman as head coach)

ND fans are pretty happy campers right about now. That is a pretty damn good season, for any school/team in America.

Try again next year...and stay independent.

ND doesn't want any goofy "schemes" to join the ACC. Stop, already.

IF ND had beaten the Bearcats, it would have made the playoffs...as an independent.

Win the ACC Championship this year but still lose to the Bearcats? ND would still be out.

Do you really think that beating Pitt or Wake Forest would have made any difference?

Conference membership didn't matter one bit. Losing to Cincy did. Looking shaky early in the season did.

Besides, the playoffs are going to expand ($$$) and ND will be just fine as a football independent.

Next topic.


(P.S. The idea that conference expansion would "nullify" existing contracts between the ACC and ND or allow the ACC to unilaterally breach them is a non-starter in court. Performance of those contracts would still be possible, unless there is no ACC at all to be capable of performing those contracts)

(12-06-2021 09:16 AM)LeeNobody Wrote:  

(12-06-2021 09:08 AM)ChrisLords Wrote:  How does any of that put pressure on ND? The only way ND joins the ACC is if you have to be a conference champion to get in the playoffs. 1 or 2 at-larges are enough for ND to maintain independence.

What you just described is a 4 team playoff with a 16 SEC. The playoff will likely include 2 SEC teams every year in a 4 team playoff. A 1 loss b12, b1g, pac12, ACC champ would have an advantage over a 1 loss ND, as we have just seen. It is quaint that one loss ND missed the playoff. What if it was routine.

Notre Dame has been just fine with, and actually thrived under, the current 4-team CFP and would have no problem with its continuation. In eight years of the CFP, the Irish have made the playoffs twice and an NY6 bowl two other times. This year, ND finished #5 despite playing about the softest schedule imaginable, having some very close calls (should have lost two other games) and no wins worth mentioning. That's pretty good respect from the CFP, IMO.

And whether TX and OU are in the Big 12 or SEC doesn't matter to ND, because either way they are competing with those schools on an individual basis.

The only way 4 teams becomes a problem is if it becomes conference champs only, and that isn't likely to happen anytime soon.

(12-06-2021 09:16 AM)LeeNobody Wrote:  

(12-06-2021 09:08 AM)ChrisLords Wrote:  How does any of that put pressure on ND? The only way ND joins the ACC is if you have to be a conference champion to get in the playoffs. 1 or 2 at-larges are enough for ND to maintain independence.

What you just described is a 4 team playoff with a 16 SEC. The playoff will likely include 2 SEC teams every year in a 4 team playoff. A 1 loss b12, b1g, pac12, ACC champ would have an advantage over a 1 loss ND, as we have just seen. It is quaint that one loss ND missed the playoff. What if it was routine.

Jack Swarbrick was talking about the possibility of a 4 team, champs only playoff format, where an independent ND is legally, structurally shut out.

That would destroy recruiting, so ND would then have no choice but to join.

IF there is any legal, open, possible route to the playoffs so that ND can sell that possibility to recruits, the playoff structure will not "force" ND to join a conference.

(12-06-2021 09:19 AM)LeeNobody Wrote:  

(12-06-2021 08:58 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(12-06-2021 08:46 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  No. There is no such thing as a “pressure play” on Notre Dame.

They want independence IN AND OF ITSELF. The ACC could add USC, Stanford and Navy yet ND still wouldn’t join it. I don’t understand why college sports fans continue to not understand this fact.

Any expansion “plan” that involves convincing ND of doing anything isn’t a plan.

Yes, IIRC, the only thing ND has mentioned that would dislodge them from independence is if the playoff structure was changed such that an independent would be at a severe, almost prohibitive, disadvantage in being able to gain entry.

So if the ACC wants to compel ND to join, they should work on an expanded playoff proposal that does that. Like say an 8 team playoff with only two at-large.

I did say it was a long shot, but you have to pursue long shots when the conference is going to be lapped in broadcast revenue. I have argued that 6-2 is the best for the Alliance conferences to level the playing field, but the SEC knows this too and has opposed it. The ACC can be bold or fade into irrelevance. I hope they opt for boldness.

I don’t like absolutist statements, but I feel that I need to be use starker terms with ND because so many people think that they can be nudged, cajoled or forced to do things in a way that doesn’t track with reality.

We could have fantasy scenarios where Ohio State joins the SEC or Florida joins the Big Ten. In theory, those could possibly happen in the sense that anything could possibly happen, but most of us here know that such fantasies are ridiculous. ND leaving independence is always possible in the same way, but it should also be looked at the same ridiculousness level as the aforementioned examples. There is only one way to force ND into a conference: they are contractually outright *forbidden* to participate in the playoff. It can’t merely just be hard or less likely or more difficult - it has to be a straight up ban. Domers have made this clear.

The thing is that’s not going to ever happen because (1) the TV networks WANT Notre Dame to be able to qualify over 99% of other teams in college football and (2) the Big Ten and SEC have no interest to “force” ND into its direct geographic competitor of the ACC.

So, ND joining the ACC or any other conference should be looked at as the same level of ridiculousness as Ohio State joining the SEC or Florida joining the Big Ten, yet for various reasons, football fans continue to look at ND as a “realistic dream”. The Big Ten wasted a couple of decades of expansion opportunities as Captain Ahab chasing its Irish whale and now the ACC is doing the same. We all need to get over it - the only thing ND wants is for all of us to get off their lawn and leave them alone.

What the hell? Haha the ACC had two teams in the playoffs last year; I don’t care if there was an asterisk, ND supplements the conference schedule.

Most ACC fans don’t care for ND to join for football and are happy with the arrangement. The league has five opportunities to beat them every season and hasn’t been good at it. That’s on us. You want to dominate them into irrelevancy, then do it!

But don’t mind me, hot take away.

(12-06-2021 09:46 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(12-06-2021 09:19 AM)LeeNobody Wrote:  

(12-06-2021 08:58 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(12-06-2021 08:46 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  No. There is no such thing as a “pressure play” on Notre Dame.

They want independence IN AND OF ITSELF. The ACC could add USC, Stanford and Navy yet ND still wouldn’t join it. I don’t understand why college sports fans continue to not understand this fact.

Any expansion “plan” that involves convincing ND of doing anything isn’t a plan.

Yes, IIRC, the only thing ND has mentioned that would dislodge them from independence is if the playoff structure was changed such that an independent would be at a severe, almost prohibitive, disadvantage in being able to gain entry.

So if the ACC wants to compel ND to join, they should work on an expanded playoff proposal that does that. Like say an 8 team playoff with only two at-large.

I did say it was a long shot, but you have to pursue long shots when the conference is going to be lapped in broadcast revenue. I have argued that 6-2 is the best for the Alliance conferences to level the playing field, but the SEC knows this too and has opposed it. The ACC can be bold or fade into irrelevance. I hope they opt for boldness.

I don’t like absolutist statements, but I feel that I need to be use starker terms with ND because so many people think that they can be nudged, cajoled or forced to do things in a way that doesn’t track with reality.

We could have fantasy scenarios where Ohio State joins the SEC or Florida joins the Big Ten. In theory, those could possibly happen in the sense that anything could possibly happen, but most of us here know that such fantasies are ridiculous. ND leaving independence is always possible in the same way, but it should also be looked at the same ridiculousness level as the aforementioned examples. There is only one way to force ND into a conference: they are contractually outright *forbidden* to participate in the playoff. It can’t merely just be hard or less likely or more difficult - it has to be a straight up ban. Domers have made this clear.

The thing is that’s not going to ever happen because (1) the TV networks WANT Notre Dame to be able to qualify over 99% of other teams in college football and (2) the Big Ten and SEC have no interest to “force” ND into its direct geographic competitor of the ACC.

So, ND joining the ACC or any other conference should be looked at as the same level of ridiculousness as Ohio State joining the SEC or Florida joining the Big Ten, yet for various reasons, football fans continue to look at ND as a “realistic dream”. The Big Ten wasted a couple of decades of expansion opportunities as Captain Ahab chasing its Irish whale and now the ACC is doing the same. We all need to get over it - the only thing ND wants is for all of us to get off their lawn and leave them alone.

Correct. The more that the media, conference administrators, coaches, AD's and even fans of other schools demand or insist that ND football join a conference, the more that ND's administration, boosters, alumni and fans amp up their resistance to the idea.

The more that other people adamantly insist that ND join a conference, the more that ND values its independence and insists on maintaining it at all costs.

Football independence is an even more big deal to ND now than it was in, say, 1991, not less.

The more rare that football independence becomes and the more that "others" insist that ND just throw it away, the more valuable it becomes and the more protective of it ND becomes.

(12-06-2021 09:59 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(12-06-2021 09:46 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(12-06-2021 09:19 AM)LeeNobody Wrote:  

(12-06-2021 08:58 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(12-06-2021 08:46 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  No. There is no such thing as a “pressure play” on Notre Dame.

They want independence IN AND OF ITSELF. The ACC could add USC, Stanford and Navy yet ND still wouldn’t join it. I don’t understand why college sports fans continue to not understand this fact.

Any expansion “plan” that involves convincing ND of doing anything isn’t a plan.

Yes, IIRC, the only thing ND has mentioned that would dislodge them from independence is if the playoff structure was changed such that an independent would be at a severe, almost prohibitive, disadvantage in being able to gain entry.

So if the ACC wants to compel ND to join, they should work on an expanded playoff proposal that does that. Like say an 8 team playoff with only two at-large.

I did say it was a long shot, but you have to pursue long shots when the conference is going to be lapped in broadcast revenue. I have argued that 6-2 is the best for the Alliance conferences to level the playing field, but the SEC knows this too and has opposed it. The ACC can be bold or fade into irrelevance. I hope they opt for boldness.

I don’t like absolutist statements, but I feel that I need to be use starker terms with ND because so many people think that they can be nudged, cajoled or forced to do things in a way that doesn’t track with reality.

We could have fantasy scenarios where Ohio State joins the SEC or Florida joins the Big Ten. In theory, those could possibly happen in the sense that anything could possibly happen, but most of us here know that such fantasies are ridiculous. ND leaving independence is always possible in the same way, but it should also be looked at the same ridiculousness level as the aforementioned examples. There is only one way to force ND into a conference: they are contractually outright *forbidden* to participate in the playoff. It can’t merely just be hard or less likely or more difficult - it has to be a straight up ban. Domers have made this clear.

The thing is that’s not going to ever happen because (1) the TV networks WANT Notre Dame to be able to qualify over 99% of other teams in college football and (2) the Big Ten and SEC have no interest to “force” ND into its direct geographic competitor of the ACC.

So, ND joining the ACC or any other conference should be looked at as the same level of ridiculousness as Ohio State joining the SEC or Florida joining the Big Ten, yet for various reasons, football fans continue to look at ND as a “realistic dream”. The Big Ten wasted a couple of decades of expansion opportunities as Captain Ahab chasing its Irish whale and now the ACC is doing the same. We all need to get over it - the only thing ND wants is for all of us to get off their lawn and leave them alone.

(12-06-2021 09:53 AM)esayem Wrote:  What the hell? Haha the ACC had two teams in the playoffs last year; I don’t care if there was an asterisk, ND supplements the conference schedule.

Most ACC fans don’t care for ND to join for football and are happy with the arrangement. The league has five opportunities to beat them every season and hasn’t been good at it. That’s on us. You want to dominate them into irrelevancy, then do it!

But don’t mind me, hot take away.

Correct. The more that the media, conference administrators, coaches, AD's and even fans of other schools demand or insist that ND football join a conference, the more that ND's administration, boosters, alumni and fans amp up their resistance to the idea.

The more that other people adamantly insist that ND join a conference, the more that ND values independence and insists on maintaining it at all costs.

And with that said, I say there isn’t any real pressure for the ACC to expand with or without Notre Dame! The playoff will expand, so this whole conversation is ridiculous.

There are zero PTB in the ACC “pressuring” Notre Dame. It just isn’t happening. They don’t need to, because if ND joins a football conference they are contractually obligated to join the ACC, because that IS THEIR CHOICE if they’re forced to. Since there is, nor will there be, a structure in place that requires only conference champs, IT’S NOT HAPPENING.



Now let’s go Miami and FSU, bring in some coaches that know those programs (Mario and Prime) and get them back to top-10. Then people will finally STFU about ACC expansion. Get them back in the top-10 and you bet your collective expansion enthusiast asses ESPN will give the whole conference a B U M P

The ACC could add Cincinnati and break into 3 pods of 5 with a 4-2-2 format, 2 highest rated teams make the acc title game. Getting a rule change doesn’t seem to be an issue with the ncaa anymore. Or the acc and sec could team up with the 2 game playoff inside of a conference to get to the title game. I like the acc jumping to 18 with Cincinnati, WVU and Georgetown

(12-06-2021 09:19 AM)LeeNobody Wrote:  

(12-06-2021 08:58 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(12-06-2021 08:46 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  No. There is no such thing as a “pressure play” on Notre Dame.

They want independence IN AND OF ITSELF. The ACC could add USC, Stanford and Navy yet ND still wouldn’t join it. I don’t understand why college sports fans continue to not understand this fact.

Any expansion “plan” that involves convincing ND of doing anything isn’t a plan.

Yes, IIRC, the only thing ND has mentioned that would dislodge them from independence is if the playoff structure was changed such that an independent would be at a severe, almost prohibitive, disadvantage in being able to gain entry.

So if the ACC wants to compel ND to join, they should work on an expanded playoff proposal that does that. Like say an 8 team playoff with only two at-large.

I did say it was a long shot, but you have to pursue long shots when the conference is going to be lapped in broadcast revenue. I have argued that 6-2 is the best for the Alliance conferences to level the playing field, but the SEC knows this too and has opposed it. The ACC can be bold or fade into irrelevance. I hope they opt for boldness.

FWIW - Although 6-2 is probably the desired goal of the Alliance, playoff expansion to 6-2 still benefits Notre Dame's current odds of making the playoffs. In the current 4 team model, Notre Dame simply needs to finish in the top 4 teams; in a 6-2 model, an independent ND would need to target finishing in the top 6. There will be a few exceptional years when the second at-large could need slightly higher and/or lower seeding. Ironically, the second at large in 2021 would be #5 ND while #6 OSU misses inclusion in a 6-2 format...this year's theoretical beneficiaries of a 6-2 model would be Notre Dame, Baylor, Utah and Pittsburgh.

Any playoff expansion that allows at-large selections will benefit ND. When the 4-team CFP was designed with at large selections, Swarbrick understood that the playoffs could never be used as leverage against ND. There is no viable scenario for playoff expansion that actually hurts ND.

(12-06-2021 09:46 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(12-06-2021 09:19 AM)LeeNobody Wrote:  

(12-06-2021 08:58 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(12-06-2021 08:46 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  No. There is no such thing as a “pressure play” on Notre Dame.

They want independence IN AND OF ITSELF. The ACC could add USC, Stanford and Navy yet ND still wouldn’t join it. I don’t understand why college sports fans continue to not understand this fact.

Any expansion “plan” that involves convincing ND of doing anything isn’t a plan.

Yes, IIRC, the only thing ND has mentioned that would dislodge them from independence is if the playoff structure was changed such that an independent would be at a severe, almost prohibitive, disadvantage in being able to gain entry.

So if the ACC wants to compel ND to join, they should work on an expanded playoff proposal that does that. Like say an 8 team playoff with only two at-large.

I did say it was a long shot, but you have to pursue long shots when the conference is going to be lapped in broadcast revenue. I have argued that 6-2 is the best for the Alliance conferences to level the playing field, but the SEC knows this too and has opposed it. The ACC can be bold or fade into irrelevance. I hope they opt for boldness.

I don’t like absolutist statements, but I feel that I need to be use starker terms with ND because so many people think that they can be nudged, cajoled or forced to do things in a way that doesn’t track with reality.

We could have fantasy scenarios where Ohio State joins the SEC or Florida joins the Big Ten. In theory, those could possibly happen in the sense that anything could possibly happen, but most of us here know that such fantasies are ridiculous. ND leaving independence is always possible in the same way, but it should also be looked at the same ridiculousness level as the aforementioned examples. There is only one way to force ND into a conference: they are contractually outright *forbidden* to participate in the playoff. It can’t merely just be hard or less likely or more difficult - it has to be a straight up ban. Domers have made this clear.

The thing is that’s not going to ever happen because (1) the TV networks WANT Notre Dame to be able to qualify over 99% of other teams in college football and (2) the Big Ten and SEC have no interest to “force” ND into its direct geographic competitor of the ACC.

So, ND joining the ACC or any other conference should be looked at as the same level of ridiculousness as Ohio State joining the SEC or Florida joining the Big Ten, yet for various reasons, football fans continue to look at ND as a “realistic dream”. The Big Ten wasted a couple of decades of expansion opportunities as Captain Ahab chasing its Irish whale and now the ACC is doing the same. We all need to get over it - the only thing ND wants is for all of us to get off their lawn and leave them alone.

Yes, when fans or writers state a league needs to "put pressure" on a school to join when that school has all the leverage, it's missing the point entirely. It's assuming the conference's leaders aren't aware of the situation and that they themselves aren't doing everything possible to achieve that end goal. Each league's administration, particularly the top leagues, are already doing everything they can behind the scenes. The school isn't joining because the school doesn't want to, it doesn't matter who's running the league or what they are/aren't doing.

ND is not an Atlantic Coast school. Regionally, it allies with the Big Ten but has been hesitant to go all-in there.

ND isn’t a big 10 type of school. If they want to join a league the acc is their best fit. ND +TCU could work great for everybody.