(10-21-2021 04:44 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  If they REALLY want to trim DI, raise the standards - number of sports sponsored, minimum number of scholarships awarded, etc.

There are P5 schools fielding NCAA minimums in terms of sports sponsorship: West Virginia carries just 14 sports, for instance.

(10-21-2021 05:47 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(10-21-2021 05:21 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  So you want to be a "big time" athletic department with a small time budget?

What's the point then? Disband athletics completely and run semi-pro teams.

And just arbitrarily cutting off, with no way for teams to go up will cause legal issues.


Frankly, it isn't worth the hassle. And realistically, be careful what you wish for because I am sure there are plenty of teams that might think GT is small time and shouldn't be in the breakaway.

If, as some advocate for, a super league of 32, neither Illinois or GT would make the cut.

I don't think we should start a race to keep ever larger indefinite deficits on the books because we're too cowardly to tell people no to their face. It's just flat out irresponsible and immoral as a public institution. Let the resource race be boosters forking over cash. Nobody is paying for women's water polo other than taxpayers or football players ... and either one is unsavory. Big time college athletics is effectively three sports. The realm of even plausible solvency gets you maybe ... seven to nine? Lacrosse in the NE. WBB at UCONN/UT sometimes. Volleyball in CA. Maybe one day softball in the SE? Maybe one distant day M/W soccer? What else is even slightly realistic to pay for itself? M/W Tennis should be in theory one of the cheaper sports and yet we saw it was one of the most axed during COVID. If you want to generate marketing garbage about how awesome you are for offering so many sports offer running and call it 6 sports like the NCAA does now.

If the only reason to sponsor a sport is to make a profit, then you don't want college athletics. You want professional sports. My vision for college athletics is far different.

(10-21-2021 04:49 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(10-21-2021 04:44 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  If they REALLY want to trim DI, raise the standards - number of sports sponsored, minimum number of scholarships awarded, etc.

Why should everybody have to field a women's field hockey team that bleeds money because some people want to keep 200 schools that have no business being in D1 there still? Why can't we just say you know what, no, you can't come along for the ride, sorry. And we're just going to say that instead of requiring everybody to go field water polo teams.

Increase the number of teams you have to have in a conference to get an auto-bid to 14. That will pair down the number of auto-bids handed out.

(10-21-2021 05:50 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(10-21-2021 04:44 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  If they REALLY want to trim DI, raise the standards - number of sports sponsored, minimum number of scholarships awarded, etc.

There are P5 schools fielding NCAA minimums in terms of sports sponsorship: West Virginia carries just 14 sports, for instance.

WVU actually sponsors 18. GT only sponsors the FBS minimum 16 (Track and Field is indoor and outdoor)

(10-21-2021 06:01 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(10-21-2021 05:47 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(10-21-2021 05:21 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  So you want to be a "big time" athletic department with a small time budget?

What's the point then? Disband athletics completely and run semi-pro teams.

And just arbitrarily cutting off, with no way for teams to go up will cause legal issues.


Frankly, it isn't worth the hassle. And realistically, be careful what you wish for because I am sure there are plenty of teams that might think GT is small time and shouldn't be in the breakaway.

If, as some advocate for, a super league of 32, neither Illinois or GT would make the cut.

I don't think we should start a race to keep ever larger indefinite deficits on the books because we're too cowardly to tell people no to their face. It's just flat out irresponsible and immoral as a public institution. Let the resource race be boosters forking over cash. Nobody is paying for women's water polo other than taxpayers or football players ... and either one is unsavory. Big time college athletics is effectively three sports. The realm of even plausible solvency gets you maybe ... seven to nine? Lacrosse in the NE. WBB at UCONN/UT sometimes. Volleyball in CA. Maybe one day softball in the SE? Maybe one distant day M/W soccer? What else is even slightly realistic to pay for itself? M/W Tennis should be in theory one of the cheaper sports and yet we saw it was one of the most axed during COVID. If you want to generate marketing garbage about how awesome you are for offering so many sports offer running and call it 6 sports like the NCAA does now.

If the only reason to sponsor a sport is to make a profit, then you don't want college athletics. You want professional sports. My vision for college athletics is far different.

It's not just about making profit. But profit is the strongest indicator of fan interest. And that's what separates intramurals from big time collegiate athletics: fans. And tell me how closely you follow the trials and tribulations of the Illini swim team? How about the intramural flag football team? The first is dependent upon the football team. They second gets couch change for funding if anything at all. If you want to have water polo great! Play it like an intramural. Without Title IX I think you'd find most big time programs would only give full ride scholarships to a dozen sports tops. Everything else is a redistribution of wealth from the football team, the MBB team, the student body, and the taxpayers to a bunch of sports that bleed money so we can ... uhh ... feel good about that some how? Cut loose the intramurals. Play big time scholarship sports where the fan interest is able to pay or mostly pay for it.

(10-21-2021 04:38 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  $0.02


P5
1 ACC 396
2 Big Ten 308
3 SEC 283
4 Big 12 258
5 Pac-12 253


Definitely Coming Along
5 Big East 253
7 The American 201
8 Atlantic 10 152
9 Mountain West 121
10 West Coast 120


Likely Coming Along
13 Mid-American 73
19 Sun Belt 49


They Might Could If They Wanted To Badly Enough, With Some Raiding
11 Conference USA 113
14 Missouri Valley 66
15 Patriot 55
16 Big Sky 54
26 Big West 27



They Don't Want To
12 Ivy 75


Won't Make It In The Next D1
17 WAC 51
18 SWAC 50
19 MAAC 49
21 Ohio Valley 47
22 Southern 43
23 Colonial 39
24 Horizon 37
27 ASUN 24
28 Northeast 23
29 Big South 22
30 MEAC 21
31 America East 17
32 Southland 16
33 Summit 13

Disagree on the SoCon. The SoCon is trying to make itself the South's Big East or A10, but they definitely need to do some raiding. You may be right about the rest.

(10-21-2021 05:37 PM)Wedge Wrote:  Here’s a thought exercise: Which D-I schools, or conferences, would want to be part of this if there was no money to be made?

The CBS/Turner TV contract goes away. Sponsorships either go away completely or they cover only the NCAA’s overhead for putting on the tournament. The NCAA pays each participating school for its expenses incurred in participating, and no more. No payouts to conferences. No payouts for advancing through the bracket.

Do all 300-plus schools still want to chase after the few with eight-figure basketball budgets and players who are paid by adidas and Nike? How many of them would prefer a tournament more suited to their own budgets and close to a level playing field?

I'm surprised that E$PN has not gotten in on this yet.

(10-21-2021 06:01 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(10-21-2021 05:47 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(10-21-2021 05:21 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  So you want to be a "big time" athletic department with a small time budget?

What's the point then? Disband athletics completely and run semi-pro teams.

And just arbitrarily cutting off, with no way for teams to go up will cause legal issues.


Frankly, it isn't worth the hassle. And realistically, be careful what you wish for because I am sure there are plenty of teams that might think GT is small time and shouldn't be in the breakaway.

If, as some advocate for, a super league of 32, neither Illinois or GT would make the cut.

I don't think we should start a race to keep ever larger indefinite deficits on the books because we're too cowardly to tell people no to their face. It's just flat out irresponsible and immoral as a public institution. Let the resource race be boosters forking over cash. Nobody is paying for women's water polo other than taxpayers or football players ... and either one is unsavory. Big time college athletics is effectively three sports. The realm of even plausible solvency gets you maybe ... seven to nine? Lacrosse in the NE. WBB at UCONN/UT sometimes. Volleyball in CA. Maybe one day softball in the SE? Maybe one distant day M/W soccer? What else is even slightly realistic to pay for itself? M/W Tennis should be in theory one of the cheaper sports and yet we saw it was one of the most axed during COVID. If you want to generate marketing garbage about how awesome you are for offering so many sports offer running and call it 6 sports like the NCAA does now.

If the only reason to sponsor a sport is to make a profit, then you don't want college athletics. You want professional sports. My vision for college athletics is far different.

Your vision of college athletics is to give in to the whims of FCS teams who have been whining non-stop about the G5 teams that left them. Sorry, not gonna happen!!!

If it's ESPN running the show, everyone who sponsors FBS football currently will make it, plus the Big East. Gonzaga will make it if they join the Big East, otherwise, no, the Pac-12 doesn't want them. Everyone else becomes irrelevant.

(10-21-2021 04:44 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  Doing it by bids is a little misleading, since some conferences are much young.

I believe these are all-time bids by current conference members (as of the 2020-21 season).

So it includes the bids by schools before they joined the conference (or before the conference was formed).

I'm curious how the records shake out with the alignment in SEC, BXII, AAC, CUSA, and SBC.

Another thing to consider is that these are just NCAA bids. I think you ought to include NIT bids too as that's a good indicator of the number of Top 100 / bubble teams a conference can produce in a given year.

If you are in a conference that don't have no FBS members? You are not coming along.

AAC
Big 10
SEC
PAC 12
Big 12
AAC
Big 12
MWC
C-USA
MAC
WAC
SBC
ASUN

This is where I would draw the line. MVC, A-10, Big West, WCC and the Big East should get more serious about having FBS football. Create a new conference for the non-football in the WAC to call up some D2 schools with no football to join. Create another one for non football schools on the east coast.

(10-21-2021 05:05 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(10-21-2021 04:44 PM)jaybird44 Wrote:  

(10-21-2021 04:38 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  $0.02


P5
1 ACC 396
2 Big Ten 308
3 SEC 283
4 Big 12 258
5 Pac-12 253


Definitely Coming Along
5 Big East 253
7 The American 201
8 Atlantic 10 152
9 Mountain West 121
10 West Coast 120


Likely Coming Along
13 Mid-American 73
19 Sun Belt 49


They Might Could If They Wanted To Badly Enough, With Some Raiding
11 Conference USA 113
14 Missouri Valley 66
15 Patriot 55
16 Big Sky 54
26 Big West 27



They Don't Want To
12 Ivy 75


Won't Make It In The Next D1
17 WAC 51
18 SWAC 50
19 MAAC 49
21 Ohio Valley 47
22 Southern 43
23 Colonial 39
24 Horizon 37
27 ASUN 24
28 Northeast 23
29 Big South 22
30 MEAC 21
31 America East 17
32 Southland 16
33 Summit 13

You will ruin the tournament

If you just leave the bottom 15 it will hardly be noticed. It will enhance the tournament.

And those bottom 15 extract over $25million in ncaa tournament credits each year.

(10-22-2021 10:46 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  And those bottom 15 extract over $25million in ncaa tournament credits each year.

Now you're gettin' it. And now let's remove the NCAA's very very VERY large take from the tournament. And now let's secure a TV contract for a new 64 team tournament where ~48 teams are P5 programs and thus major TV draws. You still get Cinderella, but Cinderella isn't somebody with a capacity 400 gym anymore. And instead of going all in on one broadcaster ... go all you can eat buffet with everybody for maximum money. You need all the sports channels combined to carry the first two rounds anyway. Everybody wins.

(10-22-2021 08:46 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(10-21-2021 06:01 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(10-21-2021 05:47 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(10-21-2021 05:21 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  So you want to be a "big time" athletic department with a small time budget?

What's the point then? Disband athletics completely and run semi-pro teams.

And just arbitrarily cutting off, with no way for teams to go up will cause legal issues.


Frankly, it isn't worth the hassle. And realistically, be careful what you wish for because I am sure there are plenty of teams that might think GT is small time and shouldn't be in the breakaway.

If, as some advocate for, a super league of 32, neither Illinois or GT would make the cut.

I don't think we should start a race to keep ever larger indefinite deficits on the books because we're too cowardly to tell people no to their face. It's just flat out irresponsible and immoral as a public institution. Let the resource race be boosters forking over cash. Nobody is paying for women's water polo other than taxpayers or football players ... and either one is unsavory. Big time college athletics is effectively three sports. The realm of even plausible solvency gets you maybe ... seven to nine? Lacrosse in the NE. WBB at UCONN/UT sometimes. Volleyball in CA. Maybe one day softball in the SE? Maybe one distant day M/W soccer? What else is even slightly realistic to pay for itself? M/W Tennis should be in theory one of the cheaper sports and yet we saw it was one of the most axed during COVID. If you want to generate marketing garbage about how awesome you are for offering so many sports offer running and call it 6 sports like the NCAA does now.

If the only reason to sponsor a sport is to make a profit, then you don't want college athletics. You want professional sports. My vision for college athletics is far different.

Your vision of college athletics is to give in to the whims of FCS teams who have been whining non-stop about the G5 teams that left them. Sorry, not gonna happen!!!

lol

(10-22-2021 10:56 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(10-22-2021 10:46 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  And those bottom 15 extract over $25million in ncaa tournament credits each year.

Now you're gettin' it. And now let's remove the NCAA's very very VERY large take from the tournament. And now let's secure a TV contract for a new 64 team tournament where ~48 teams are P5 programs and thus major TV draws. You still get Cinderella, but Cinderella isn't somebody with a capacity 400 gym anymore. And instead of going all in on one broadcaster ... go all you can eat buffet with everybody for maximum money. You need all the sports channels combined to carry the first two rounds anyway. Everybody wins.

It is sad how people STILL don't understand the economics of College Sports, and what the money the NCAA keeps goes for. The P5 get the lions share of that money in the end. They would likely be WORSE off under your plan.

(10-22-2021 10:56 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(10-22-2021 10:46 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  And those bottom 15 extract over $25million in ncaa tournament credits each year.

Now you're gettin' it. And now let's remove the NCAA's very very VERY large take from the tournament. And now let's secure a TV contract for a new 64 team tournament where ~48 teams are P5 programs and thus major TV draws. You still get Cinderella, but Cinderella isn't somebody with a capacity 400 gym anymore. And instead of going all in on one broadcaster ... go all you can eat buffet with everybody for maximum money. You need all the sports channels combined to carry the first two rounds anyway. Everybody wins.

Yep, and all of a sudden basketball starts driving the bus a lot more than it did.

We get it. Everyone that isn't P5 doesn't matter. It's beneath you to be associated with us. You don't think anyone is interested in schools that aren't flagships. Because we obviously don't also have people that spent fourish years there and become fans because they love the place. That only happens at real schools like tech.

Your Georgia Tech. You might find yourself on the outside looking in on p5 20 years from now. You're not exactly a powerhouse. I'm in Atlanta and don't think I know a single tech fan, but P5 must mean you draw more eyeballs than a Cinderella in the tournament.

Beautiful stadium though. Loved watching my owls there this fall. Hopefully we play again soon.

Basically we should divide D1 basketball into a basketball version of 1-A and 1-AA?

AAC, ACC, B1G, Big XII, C-USA (if they survive), MAC, MWC, PAC-12, SEC, SBC
+ conferences like the A-10, Big East, WCC, and maybe 1 or 2 more.

The rest begin play in a smaller subdivision. What would become the FCS of basketball?

Interesting idea.

(10-21-2021 04:29 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  D1 FBS football isn't too bloated. About 125 teams. D1 hoops though? Nearly 400 teams. It seems pretty clear the thunder and clouds are building around a basketball breakaway. That could take the form of greatly increased NCAA D1 membership dues to finance the championship operations and then the basketball tournament is stripped away and run by the basketball power conferences as they see fit for their profit. It's not an exaggeration to say that half of D1 hoops is financially utterly dependent upon tournament unit revenue to even be in D1. Who will and who won't make it in a breakaway?


To help sort things ... here's the all time list of bids by conference:

1 ACC 396
2 Big Ten 308
3 SEC 283
4 Big 12 258
5 Pac-12 253
5 Big East 253
7 The American 201
8 Atlantic 10 152
9 Mountain West 121
10 West Coast 120
11 Conference USA 113
12 Ivy 75
13 Mid-American 73
14 Missouri Valley 66
15 Patriot 55
16 Big Sky 54
17 WAC 51
18 SWAC 50
19 MAAC 49
19 Sun Belt 49
21 Ohio Valley 47
22 Southern 43
23 Colonial 39
24 Horizon 37
25 Non Division 1 33
26 Big West 27
27 ASUN 24
28 Northeast 23
29 Big South 22
30 MEAC 21
31 America East 17
32 Southland 16
33 Summit 13

While I DO see a breakaway per se, I don't think it's gonna be anything like what people think it will be.


I could see a scenario where no conferences will be cut. Zero. Zip. Nada. And that the tourney will be kept in tact as it is. It's too valuable to really mess with in that regard.


BUT ....

I could see some major changes with how the money is distributed. Which ... let's face it ... is the only reason why there would be a break away to begin with.

With no NCAA to worry about, you can redistribute that hunk of cash right there.

On top of that, I could see the power 5 conferences deciding that winning a first round game is NOT the same as winning an Elite Eight game (for example) and they structure the pay outs so that they start small, and get bigger each round as the tourney progresses.

Since the Power 5 conferences and a couple of the G5 conferences typically dominate the later stages of the tourney, they will get more of the money associated with the tourney this way.

If the smaller conferences don't like this arrangement, then they can choose to not participate. This is how the Power 5 "culls the herd" ... letting those smaller conferences self-select out.

(10-22-2021 11:57 AM)Pervis_Griffith Wrote:  On top of that, I could see the power 5 conferences deciding that winning a first round game is NOT the same as winning an Elite Eight game (for example) and they structure the pay outs so that they start small, and get bigger each round as the tourney progresses.

This is a variation on my comment above: Remove the monetary incentives, and then see who still wants to be part of this.

Keep all the autobids, but make the payout $100,000 (instead of $2 million) for a team that makes the tournament but doesn't win on the first Thursday/Friday. Give a much larger payout to teams that win Thursday/Friday but lose on the first Saturday/Sunday, and so on.