The only way Marshall can unshackle itself is to cut the legs pinning them down in Conf USA. You have to go to the SBC to rid yourself of the remaining baggage in the southwest. Do they like playing football against UTEP and LaTech? Maybe, but not over the rest of the Sunbelt. So take ODU and JMU with you and get out. You get three instant rivals with App St, ODU, JMU. It's not like they need to play in Fla every year either.

There is just not enough there to stretch an overlapping conference from El Paso to Miami and back up to West VA. They don't have an alternative besides the MAC.

For UTEP and NMSU, Independence or WAC is the answer. Same for LA Tech. FIU can go back to the A-Sun. Not the end of the world being relegated back to FCS. There will be call ups in the near future.

(10-21-2021 12:57 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(10-21-2021 12:51 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(10-21-2021 12:40 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(10-21-2021 12:16 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(10-21-2021 11:46 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  As someone who has just over 10 years working at a MAC institution...I can tell you there is next to no interest in expansion. They are more than happy right where they are, with the institutions and geography to match. With the exception of two schools, they are all seeing some level of financial issues, and adding in those schools would do nothing to help the situation (also, none of the MAC schools want Marshall back). Would be absolutely FLOORED if the MAC did anything more than take a scrap when it's all said and done, and even that isn't likely. Hell...I'd go a step further. I'd be less surprised with the MAC going FCS than I would with them going to 16 teams. Really, the only expansion that MIGHT have made sense was if the AAC didn't stoke their dumpster fire with the new adds and Temple wanted a more regional conference, then they just add in UConn or UMASS and be done....even that has the issue of not being a "driveable" game for MAC schools, which is honestly a fairly big sticking point at this point financially.

ESPN is cutting the checks. If they want to pay the MAC more to expand and it covers the additional travel costs incurred it *could* happen.

There is ESPN money but also travel costs and competitiveness to consider. WKU and Marshall might be better off in the MAC East than building a more competitive SBC East.

MAC going to FCS is not happening with an expanded 12 team playoff that is going to 3x what the MAC was previously making from the CFP.

Temple is never coming back to the MAC. Its an urban school and doesn't fit the MAC profile. AAC at 14 already has its backfills built in.

I appreciate your desire to see dominoes falling in all directions...but I'm telling you as someone who literally sits in rooms at one of the more prominent institutions in that conference, that it is not happening. I will also tell you that the FCS route has been floated more than a few times...even after the playoff expansion was made public. 8 of the schools in the MAC just had their S&P ratings dropped to junk status, and are running institutional deficits into the $20M-$40M/year range. If you think they aren't having conversations about drastically changing the departments that bring in $6M-$8M in revenue to their $28M-$40M expense sheets, you're insane. It ain't about athletics in that case...it's about ensuring the institution can survive.

But the behavior of the athletic departments does not support what you say as the MAC continues to spend more than ever on coaches which continue to float big dreams for their athletic departments.

There is no money in FCS from TV and sponsorships. You don't get the same kind of guarantee money as an FCS program. A losing proposition all the way around.

Maybe 14 w/ WKU/MT is good right now as a hedge in case someone drops down but I doubt it.

Yes, but, you can also go partial or no scholarship, like another Ohio school has (Dayton) and cut your costs TREMENDOUSLY. All I'm saying is that those conversations have most definitely been happening. There is no money where they're at right now...I believe the last year paid out $240,000 to each MAC school...it's not like they'd be losing anything on the TV side.

I would also add that people around these parts are starting to realize that those big dreams are impossible, and they need to start looking at how to make more rational decisions. Just what I've heard having actually been in and around conversations with administration at a University in the MAC, but you can take what you want out of it.

The MAC is going to go non-scholarship FB?

What about donors? Don't you think they'll all disappear?

Didn't you just say earlier the MAC should grab Temple and UConn? All sports?

Don't you understand that a scholarship is not a cost but an accounting line item? it doesn't cost a university to provide a scholarship but it is *worth* 25,000 a year?

These budgets of $28-$40 million are not reflective of actual costs to run those athletic departments but are a summation of revenues, debts, game day and expenses? The actual cost to operate a MAC athletic department is closer to 10 million.

You can say you've worked 10 years in a MAC budget office but I've picked through NCAA finances for 20 years and those budget numbers are inflated relative to their true costs.

(10-21-2021 01:07 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(10-21-2021 12:57 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(10-21-2021 12:51 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(10-21-2021 12:40 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(10-21-2021 12:16 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  ESPN is cutting the checks. If they want to pay the MAC more to expand and it covers the additional travel costs incurred it *could* happen.

There is ESPN money but also travel costs and competitiveness to consider. WKU and Marshall might be better off in the MAC East than building a more competitive SBC East.

MAC going to FCS is not happening with an expanded 12 team playoff that is going to 3x what the MAC was previously making from the CFP.

Temple is never coming back to the MAC. Its an urban school and doesn't fit the MAC profile. AAC at 14 already has its backfills built in.

I appreciate your desire to see dominoes falling in all directions...but I'm telling you as someone who literally sits in rooms at one of the more prominent institutions in that conference, that it is not happening. I will also tell you that the FCS route has been floated more than a few times...even after the playoff expansion was made public. 8 of the schools in the MAC just had their S&P ratings dropped to junk status, and are running institutional deficits into the $20M-$40M/year range. If you think they aren't having conversations about drastically changing the departments that bring in $6M-$8M in revenue to their $28M-$40M expense sheets, you're insane. It ain't about athletics in that case...it's about ensuring the institution can survive.

But the behavior of the athletic departments does not support what you say as the MAC continues to spend more than ever on coaches which continue to float big dreams for their athletic departments.

There is no money in FCS from TV and sponsorships. You don't get the same kind of guarantee money as an FCS program. A losing proposition all the way around.

Maybe 14 w/ WKU/MT is good right now as a hedge in case someone drops down but I doubt it.

Yes, but, you can also go partial or no scholarship, like another Ohio school has (Dayton) and cut your costs TREMENDOUSLY. All I'm saying is that those conversations have most definitely been happening. There is no money where they're at right now...I believe the last year paid out $240,000 to each MAC school...it's not like they'd be losing anything on the TV side.

I would also add that people around these parts are starting to realize that those big dreams are impossible, and they need to start looking at how to make more rational decisions. Just what I've heard having actually been in and around conversations with administration at a University in the MAC, but you can take what you want out of it.

The MAC is going to go non-scholarship FB?

What about donors? Don't you think they'll all disappear?

Didn't you just say earlier the MAC should grab Temple and UConn? All sports?

Don't you understand that a scholarship is not a cost but an accounting line item? it doesn't cost a university to provide a scholarship but it is *worth* 25,000 a year?

These budgets of $28-$40 million are not reflective of actual costs to run those athletic departments but are a summation of revenues, debts, game day and expenses? The actual cost to operate a MAC athletic department is closer to 10 million.

You can say you've worked 10 years in a MAC budget office but I've picked through NCAA finances for 20 years and those budget numbers are inflated relative to their true costs.

I said that idea was floated, not that they're doing it.

Donors at the institution where I work only contribute roughly 12% of their dollars to athletics...so while it would be a loss (probably not much, because every other sport would still be competing at the D1 level, and we only see about 30% of athletics gifts go to football...most of which would stay in projections by consultants), it wouldn't be nearly as much as you think.

I said if the AAC didn't pillage the CUSA, that would be the only even remotely logical add (but still wouldn't happen because it isn't logical).

I do understand fund accounting...I also understand that fund accounting pertaining to scholarships only contributes to roughly 10% of the $24M budget deficit the AD at my institution racks up every year. The overall net operating loss (not including fund overhead and conservative budgeting) was $18.21M at my institution last year in the AD alone when not including University float...that's a concrete number, not the USA Today number that says it was closer to $24.2M.

I haven't worked in a MAC budget office...I work in administration at a MAC institution.

OK, after today’s AAC news, count me firmly in the Marshall, along with ODU, USM and either WKU or James Madison to the Sun Belt…NOW!

No iteration of CUSA in the future appeals to me, any longer. Enough with CUSA’s poor leadership, bad deals, and lack of exposure. I feel bad for schools that will be left, but we need to move forward!

(10-21-2021 01:24 PM)Cnelson203 Wrote:  OK, after today’s AAC news, count me firmly in the Marshall, along with ODU, USM and either WKU or James Madison to the Sun Belt…NOW!

No iteration of CUSA in the future appeals to me, any longer. Enough with CUSA’s poor leadership, bad deals, and lack of exposure. I feel bad for schools that will be left, but we need to move forward!

Yep...that's the only option that makes sense. Secure the mid-Atlantic/Tidewater area for that conference (a good growing area of population as well) and get some nice regional rivalries brewing. I could see Marshall have A LOT of fun with Appalachian State.

Ideal SBC is:
East-
Appalachian State
Marshall
Coastal Carolina
Old Dominion
James Madison
Georgia State
Georgia Southern

West-
Troy
ULL
ULM
South Alabama
Southern Miss
Arkansas State
Texas State

Solid regional groupings, good potential for new rivalries to build, and just in general "makes sense"

(10-21-2021 12:53 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(10-21-2021 12:34 PM)msm96wolf Wrote:  South Division
WKU
LA Tech
UTEP
FIU
NMSU
EKU (FCS) or Jackson St or TBD Texas School (I think if there can be a TEXAS FCS School, that will be first choice but who is that school? My pick Texas Southern. HBCU university, Houston, good history. I think they will get the support from the networks and others to be successful since it would be an incredible story becoming the first FBS HBCU)

This is where you lost me...you're trying to throw together a DIVISION, not even a conference, that spans thousands of miles from New Mexico, to South Florida, to Central Kentucky? And that conference is only making $300,000 a year in TV money? NFW unfortunately.

I think the far more likely scenario is the WAC taking a few of these teams as FBS anchors for their plan to move back up to the prime division. UTEP and LTU would be my most likely ones.

To add to this...every indication is that Marshall and ODU want a strengthened identity in the Tidewater/Mid Atlantic region in their conference (likely to help rouse fan support and to cut down on travel). If you think ODU is going to jump ship to go play in the NE and New Mexico every other year, I think you're quite a bit off track.

The sensible thing would more likely be this:

Sun Belt adds Marshall, Old Dominion, James Madison, and Southern Miss

CUSA dissolves or rebrands because no one will join them from FBS

UTEP either goes independent, or finds a home in the MWC or AAC when Memphis and Boise leave.

WAC-ASUN Challenge teams move to FBS and reconstitute the dead CUSA:

Central Division
Western Kentucky
Middle Tennessee
Eastern Kentucky
Jacksonville State
Kennesaw State
Austin Peay

Southwest Division
Louisiana Tech
Central Arkansas
Sam Houston State
Abeline Christian
Lamar
Stephen F. Austin

Yes, that is a huge flaw with nm plan if you play within the restraints of the NCAA current conference rules. Will the NCAA allow CUSA die and other conferences to be created for the teams left out? For example, ASUN has made it known for its desire to have football,

Another question, why did you keep Liberty independent? Unless they are wanting to remain, it seems ridiculous to block them from a conference. They already have shown they can compete and have the money to fund athletics. In every other sport, there appears no complaints about them being in a conference. Football is the only one. There is really is no justifiable argument to keep them out.

I do hope the NCAA might allow reformation waiver for a new WAC and ASun. WAC could easily add NMSU, UTEP, LA Tech and ASUN absorb WKU, Middle Tn, and Liberty (who is already in the ASUN but will have to leave when the split due to not being there long enough). I am probably in the Minority, but I would love let teams move up from FCS if the have desire and willing to take the risk.

(10-21-2021 12:53 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(10-21-2021 12:34 PM)msm96wolf Wrote:  South Division
WKU
LA Tech
UTEP
FIU
NMSU
EKU (FCS) or Jackson St or TBD Texas School (I think if there can be a TEXAS FCS School, that will be first choice but who is that school? My pick Texas Southern. HBCU university, Houston, good history. I think they will get the support from the networks and others to be successful since it would be an incredible story becoming the first FBS HBCU)

This is where you lost me...you're trying to throw together a DIVISION, not even a conference, that spans thousands of miles from New Mexico, to South Florida, to Central Kentucky? And that conference is only making $300,000 a year in TV money? NFW unfortunately.

I think the far more likely scenario is the WAC taking a few of these teams as FBS anchors for their plan to move back up to the prime division. UTEP and LTU would be my most likely ones.

To add to this...every indication is that Marshall and ODU want a strengthened identity in the Tidewater/Mid Atlantic region in their conference (likely to help rouse fan support and to cut down on travel). If you think ODU is going to jump ship to go play in the NE and New Mexico every other year, I think you're quite a bit off track.

The sensible thing would more likely be this:

Sun Belt adds Marshall, Old Dominion, James Madison, and Southern Miss

CUSA dissolves or rebrands because no one will join them from FBS

UTEP either goes independent, or finds a home in the MWC or AAC when Memphis and Boise leave.

WAC-ASUN Challenge teams move to FBS and reconstitute the dead CUSA:

Central Division
Western Kentucky
Middle Tennessee
Eastern Kentucky
Jacksonville State
Kennesaw State
Austin Peay

Southwest Division
Louisiana Tech
Central Arkansas
Sam Houston State
Abeline Christian
Lamar
Stephen F. Austin

Yes, that is a huge flaw with my plan if you play within the restraints of the NCAA current conference rules. Will the NCAA allow CUSA die and other conferences to be created for the teams left out? For example, ASUN has made it known for its desire to have football,

Another question, why did you keep Liberty independent? Unless they are wanting to remain, it seems ridiculous to block them from a conference. They already have shown they can compete and have the money to fund athletics. In every other sport, there appears no complaints about them being in a conference. Football is the only one. There is really is no justifiable argument to keep them out.

I do hope the NCAA might allow reformation waiver for a new WAC and ASun. WAC could easily add NMSU, UTEP, LA Tech and ASUN absorb WKU, Middle Tn, and Liberty (who is already in the ASUN but will have to leave when the split due to not being there long enough). I am probably in the Minority, but I would love let teams move up from FCS if the have desire and willing to take the risk.

(10-21-2021 12:00 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  From what I've heard it's not a "battle front"

Marshall wants to be a southern school, if they can choose between the MAC and SBC, they are going to choose the SBC. Not because the conference is a ton better (they are up right now) but because that's where they identify.

ODU I think want's to stick with Marshall and USM.

While ODU is a nice school, I don't know that the MAC is going to fight for it.

WKU and MTSU don't work in the Sun Belts plan, and the belt is still salty WKU left. The two could be nice additions for the MAC, the SBC does not want them, and both conferences would have some nice pickups.

The two have different identities, different regions, and both share the same TV provider. The MAC will be better and deeper in hoops and the SBC looks to be a bit better in football.

If the SBC go after a Tennessee school? It would not be Middle Tennessee State because the same issues with WKU. They would go after Chattanooga, and they are now ready to make the jump. When SBC wanted to add them before? Chattanooga had a lot of turnovers in their leadership. They are now stable to move up.

(10-21-2021 12:34 PM)msm96wolf Wrote:  MAC
Youngstown State moves up to MAC

There a lot of ways the MAC could go if it needed another school. This probably isn't it.

(10-21-2021 01:51 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(10-21-2021 12:00 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  From what I've heard it's not a "battle front"

Marshall wants to be a southern school, if they can choose between the MAC and SBC, they are going to choose the SBC. Not because the conference is a ton better (they are up right now) but because that's where they identify.

ODU I think want's to stick with Marshall and USM.

While ODU is a nice school, I don't know that the MAC is going to fight for it.

WKU and MTSU don't work in the Sun Belts plan, and the belt is still salty WKU left. The two could be nice additions for the MAC, the SBC does not want them, and both conferences would have some nice pickups.

The two have different identities, different regions, and both share the same TV provider. The MAC will be better and deeper in hoops and the SBC looks to be a bit better in football.

If the SBC go after a Tennessee school? It would not be Middle Tennessee State because the same issues with WKU. They would go after Chattanooga, and they are now ready to make the jump. When SBC wanted to add them before? Chattanooga had a lot of turnovers in their leadership. They are now stable to move up.

They can also join ASUN with ASUN planning to go FBS in the near future.

(10-21-2021 01:18 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(10-21-2021 01:07 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(10-21-2021 12:57 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(10-21-2021 12:51 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(10-21-2021 12:40 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  I appreciate your desire to see dominoes falling in all directions...but I'm telling you as someone who literally sits in rooms at one of the more prominent institutions in that conference, that it is not happening. I will also tell you that the FCS route has been floated more than a few times...even after the playoff expansion was made public. 8 of the schools in the MAC just had their S&P ratings dropped to junk status, and are running institutional deficits into the $20M-$40M/year range. If you think they aren't having conversations about drastically changing the departments that bring in $6M-$8M in revenue to their $28M-$40M expense sheets, you're insane. It ain't about athletics in that case...it's about ensuring the institution can survive.

But the behavior of the athletic departments does not support what you say as the MAC continues to spend more than ever on coaches which continue to float big dreams for their athletic departments.

There is no money in FCS from TV and sponsorships. You don't get the same kind of guarantee money as an FCS program. A losing proposition all the way around.

Maybe 14 w/ WKU/MT is good right now as a hedge in case someone drops down but I doubt it.

Yes, but, you can also go partial or no scholarship, like another Ohio school has (Dayton) and cut your costs TREMENDOUSLY. All I'm saying is that those conversations have most definitely been happening. There is no money where they're at right now...I believe the last year paid out $240,000 to each MAC school...it's not like they'd be losing anything on the TV side.

I would also add that people around these parts are starting to realize that those big dreams are impossible, and they need to start looking at how to make more rational decisions. Just what I've heard having actually been in and around conversations with administration at a University in the MAC, but you can take what you want out of it.

The MAC is going to go non-scholarship FB?

What about donors? Don't you think they'll all disappear?

Didn't you just say earlier the MAC should grab Temple and UConn? All sports?

Don't you understand that a scholarship is not a cost but an accounting line item? it doesn't cost a university to provide a scholarship but it is *worth* 25,000 a year?

These budgets of $28-$40 million are not reflective of actual costs to run those athletic departments but are a summation of revenues, debts, game day and expenses? The actual cost to operate a MAC athletic department is closer to 10 million.

You can say you've worked 10 years in a MAC budget office but I've picked through NCAA finances for 20 years and those budget numbers are inflated relative to their true costs.

I said that idea was floated, not that they're doing it.

Donors at the institution where I work only contribute roughly 12% of their dollars to athletics...so while it would be a loss (probably not much, because every other sport would still be competing at the D1 level, and we only see about 30% of athletics gifts go to football...most of which would stay in projections by consultants), it wouldn't be nearly as much as you think.

I said if the AAC didn't pillage the CUSA, that would be the only even remotely logical add (but still wouldn't happen because it isn't logical).

I do understand fund accounting...I also understand that fund accounting pertaining to scholarships only contributes to roughly 10% of the $24M budget deficit the AD at my institution racks up every year. The overall net operating loss (not including fund overhead and conservative budgeting) was $18.21M at my institution last year in the AD alone when not including University float...that's a concrete number, not the USA Today number that says it was closer to $24.2M.

I haven't worked in a MAC budget office...I work in administration at a MAC institution.

This is the numbers on EMU which is at the lowest end of revenues:

Total Salaries: $4,016,806
Recruiting Expenses: $359,864
Operating Game Day: $3,647,778
Total Expenses (Line 9): $3,369,945

The total cost then is $11,394,393. Scholarships are another $8,283,683 as a line item. Non allocated number is $8,110,198 is the unused student fee draw.

https://ope.ed.gov/athletics/#/

If a school like EMU might be pulling in $6 or $8 million in revenue sources (TV, CFP, NCAA, Sponsorships, Donations) but as a non-scholarship FB team $1-$2 million tops. NCAA throws in money based on scholarships to universities and if you are cutting FB plus 3-4 women's sports half of that goes away.

The budget numbers are pumped up by including the entire student activity fee number even though its not used.

MAC schools have never been dripping in money. If this model was unsustainable they would have all dropped FB by 1991. Here we are in 2021, thirty years later and they continue to participate in FBS.

(10-21-2021 12:57 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(10-21-2021 12:51 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(10-21-2021 12:40 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(10-21-2021 12:16 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(10-21-2021 11:46 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  As someone who has just over 10 years working at a MAC institution...I can tell you there is next to no interest in expansion. They are more than happy right where they are, with the institutions and geography to match. With the exception of two schools, they are all seeing some level of financial issues, and adding in those schools would do nothing to help the situation (also, none of the MAC schools want Marshall back). Would be absolutely FLOORED if the MAC did anything more than take a scrap when it's all said and done, and even that isn't likely. Hell...I'd go a step further. I'd be less surprised with the MAC going FCS than I would with them going to 16 teams. Really, the only expansion that MIGHT have made sense was if the AAC didn't stoke their dumpster fire with the new adds and Temple wanted a more regional conference, then they just add in UConn or UMASS and be done....even that has the issue of not being a "driveable" game for MAC schools, which is honestly a fairly big sticking point at this point financially.

ESPN is cutting the checks. If they want to pay the MAC more to expand and it covers the additional travel costs incurred it *could* happen.

There is ESPN money but also travel costs and competitiveness to consider. WKU and Marshall might be better off in the MAC East than building a more competitive SBC East.

MAC going to FCS is not happening with an expanded 12 team playoff that is going to 3x what the MAC was previously making from the CFP.

Temple is never coming back to the MAC. Its an urban school and doesn't fit the MAC profile. AAC at 14 already has its backfills built in.

I appreciate your desire to see dominoes falling in all directions...but I'm telling you as someone who literally sits in rooms at one of the more prominent institutions in that conference, that it is not happening. I will also tell you that the FCS route has been floated more than a few times...even after the playoff expansion was made public. 8 of the schools in the MAC just had their S&P ratings dropped to junk status, and are running institutional deficits into the $20M-$40M/year range. If you think they aren't having conversations about drastically changing the departments that bring in $6M-$8M in revenue to their $28M-$40M expense sheets, you're insane. It ain't about athletics in that case...it's about ensuring the institution can survive.

But the behavior of the athletic departments does not support what you say as the MAC continues to spend more than ever on coaches which continue to float big dreams for their athletic departments.

There is no money in FCS from TV and sponsorships. You don't get the same kind of guarantee money as an FCS program. A losing proposition all the way around.

Maybe 14 w/ WKU/MT is good right now as a hedge in case someone drops down but I doubt it.

Yes, but, you can also go partial or no scholarship, like another Ohio school has (Dayton) and cut your costs TREMENDOUSLY. All I'm saying is that those conversations have most definitely been happening. There is no money where they're at right now...I believe the last year paid out $240,000 to each MAC school...it's not like they'd be losing anything on the TV side.

I would also add that people around these parts are starting to realize that those big dreams are impossible, and they need to start looking at how to make more rational decisions. Just what I've heard having actually been in and around conversations with administration at a University in the MAC, but you can take what you want out of it. All of this is moot to the topic at hand...the MAC is not going to do anything to change where they're at situationally (adding teams), because it is the perfect conference for all involved.

There are several that would be better off just dropping football and focusing on basketball.

(10-21-2021 01:59 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  MAC schools have never been dripping in money. If this model was unsustainable they would have all dropped FB by 1991. Here we are in 2021, thirty years later and they continue to participate in FBS.

Come on now...that's a false equivalency and you know it. The order of magnitude has shifted tremendously...probably by a factor of 10+ in those 30 years. That's essentially saying because you could afford a Honda ($10,000) in 1991, you should be fine buying a Ferrari now ($150,000). Just because they could 'afford the losses back then far easier, doesn't mean that they can now.