I'm sure Arkstfan/Bird can attest to the accuracy...

"I do. I have had extensive discussion with both Dr Pohl and SBC Commish Wright Waters concerning what transpired.

NCAA Div 1 football playing conferences were required to have a minimum of seven football teams.

Division 1 independence is a death sentence for a small time program without deep pockets. Scheduling is near impossible and travel costs are prohibitive, especially for a remote western school. Utah St had just won 25 basketball games and WAC Comish Karl Benson, who was on the selection committee worked to have them denied entry into the tourney. WAC schools would basically abuse Utah St and Idaho for self amusement.

The WAC was left with only six members (Hawaii, SJSU, Fresno, Nevada, Boise St, and La Tech) in 2005 after Rice, SMU, Tulsa, and UTEP bolted for CUSA. La Tech was suddenly isolated by thousands of miles from their nearest conference mate. The WAC would have to add at least one football school to remain a conference.

At the time, the Sun Belt had five full members that played football (MTSU, Arkansas St, Louisiana, North Texas, and NMSU) and three associate football members (ULM, impoverished Idaho, and a Utah State program that was unnecessarily rescued from certain demise in 2003). ULM refused to leave the Southland because of their incredibly low budget.

MTSU wanted to go to the MAC, and the other SBC members proposed a WAC merge, with Arkansas St, Louisiana, North Texas, and NMSU joining the WAC along with associate members Utah State and Idaho. This idea was strongly supported by WAC member La Tech and opposed by Hawaii because they didn't want 'more eastern members'.

The proposal was "WE ALL JOIN OR NOBODY JOINS".

Benson countered by inviting only North Texas which replied NO. Benson then invited North Texas and NMSU, along with the threat that if North Texas declined Arkansas or Louisiana would be invited instead and "North Texas would soon be out of Division 1 football". North Texas and NMSU both declined, and so did both Arkansas St and Louisiana.

The WAC needed seven schools to qualify as a football conference and only had six, and there were no other options. A WAC - Sun Belt merger was becoming inevitable, well, that is, unless any SBC school broke its promise.

Utah State, one of the two schools that the WAC members were most strongly opposed to, receives an invitation and instantly accepts. "Its a dream come true!" proclaims Rance Pugmire as his school knifed in the back those Sun Belt schools that had just rescued his a year earlier.

The WAC was saved at the expense of the Sun Belt. The Sun Belt was fully expected to die.

North Texas was then invited again and declined out of loyalty to its faithful conference mates. NMSU and Idaho then asked for, and received everyone's blessing to join the WAC.

The Sun Belt and WAC then started the expansion by filling and further backfilling with 1-AA schools and that boom continues to this day: Texas State, UTSA, Troy, FAU, FIU, South Alabama, Western Kentucky, ODU, Charlotte, App St, Coastal Carolina, Georgia Southern, Georgia State, etc...

10% of FBS members are a direct result of this debacle, including 30% of the continuously watered down G5 swamp... and it all started with a filthy backstab by Utah State.

I hope nobody offers help if Utah State is again alienated by the MWC being depleted of too many teams through Big XII and AAC expansion.

Other than that I don't like USU and don't don't think we should ever lower ourselves to interact with them."

The basic gist is correct. Few facts are off.

Number needed was 8 not 7.

NMSU had already jumped.

It was Louisiana instead of UNT that was the threat if UNT balked.

It was the Cali schools who didn’t want to add more than one eastern team.

But yes, the WACs refusal to take UNT, UL, AState, and MTSU as a unit is why Sun Belt exists today.

(09-29-2021 03:52 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  The basic gist is correct. Few facts are off.

Number needed was 8 not 7.

NMSU had already jumped.

It was Louisiana instead of UNT that was the threat if UNT balked.

It was the Cali schools who didn’t want to add more than one eastern team.

But yes, the WACs refusal to take UNT, UL, AState, and MTSU as a unit is why Sun Belt exists today.

Did Middle really want to join the MAC? Would the the WAC and Sunbelt had reversed roles if the they had accepted UNT, UL, ASTATE and Middle?

I remember when MT and WKU were a "cinch" to join the MAC.

(09-29-2021 03:58 PM)BirdofParadise Wrote:  I remember when MT and WKU were a "cinch" to join the MAC.

Think that was a bit after

(09-29-2021 03:57 PM)RamblinRedWolf Wrote:  

(09-29-2021 03:52 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  The basic gist is correct. Few facts are off.

Number needed was 8 not 7.

NMSU had already jumped.

It was Louisiana instead of UNT that was the threat if UNT balked.

It was the Cali schools who didn’t want to add more than one eastern team.

But yes, the WACs refusal to take UNT, UL, AState, and MTSU as a unit is why Sun Belt exists today.

Did Middle really want to join the MAC? Would the the WAC and Sunbelt had reversed roles if the they had accepted UNT, UL, ASTATE and Middle?

After the WAC raid MTSU was willing to go WAC. The west would have been NMSU, UNT, UL, AState, MTSU and LaTech.

(09-29-2021 03:52 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  The basic gist is correct. Few facts are off.

Number needed was 8 not 7.

NMSU had already jumped.

It was Louisiana instead of UNT that was the threat if UNT balked.

It was the Cali schools who didn’t want to add more than one eastern team.

But yes, the WACs refusal to take UNT, UL, AState, and MTSU as a unit is why Sun Belt exists today.

BOP will contradict what I’m about to say, but I believe the person who told me this implicitly.

After NMSU and USU jumped, there was a last minute proposal to add UNT and UL. Our president flew to Denton to convince UNT to say no because if UNT said yes, the pressure for him to say yes as well would have been a huge problem he didn’t want to deal with.

(09-29-2021 08:46 PM)CAJUNNATION Wrote:  

(09-29-2021 03:52 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  The basic gist is correct. Few facts are off.

Number needed was 8 not 7.

NMSU had already jumped.

It was Louisiana instead of UNT that was the threat if UNT balked.

It was the Cali schools who didn’t want to add more than one eastern team.

But yes, the WACs refusal to take UNT, UL, AState, and MTSU as a unit is why Sun Belt exists today.

BOP will contradict what I’m about to say, but I believe the person who told me this implicitly.

After NMSU and USU jumped, there was a last minute proposal to add UNT and UL. Our president flew to Denton to convince UNT to say no because if UNT said yes, the pressure for him to say yes as well would have been a huge problem he didn’t want to deal with.

This 100% sounds like something Ray would do.

(09-29-2021 08:46 PM)CAJUNNATION Wrote:  

(09-29-2021 03:52 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  The basic gist is correct. Few facts are off.

Number needed was 8 not 7.

NMSU had already jumped.

It was Louisiana instead of UNT that was the threat if UNT balked.

It was the Cali schools who didn’t want to add more than one eastern team.

But yes, the WACs refusal to take UNT, UL, AState, and MTSU as a unit is why Sun Belt exists today.

BOP will contradict what I’m about to say, but I believe the person who told me this implicitly.

After NMSU and USU jumped, there was a last minute proposal to add UNT and UL. Our president flew to Denton to convince UNT to say no because if UNT said yes, the pressure for him to say yes as well would have been a huge problem he didn’t want to deal with.

Could be. I know it was at least initially UNT and then threatened with UL. Then a UL invite. Finally gave up and took Idaho. Never heard a dual invite but not saying didn’t happen.

Would have dramatically changed things. FIU and FAU don’t move up at least as quickly. ULM is an independent in football and rest of sports are SLC.

Idaho is homeless a decade earlier.

WKU who was not interested at the time in FBS is I-AA in a Sun Belt with UNO, USA, LR, FCS version FIU.

Becomes an interesting rabbit hole.

The MWC raid that comes along later maybe results in WAC. Being a new SWC, maybe WKU eventually becomes I-A just later. Lots and lots of what ifs emerge.

(09-29-2021 02:49 PM)RamblinRedWolf Wrote:  I'm sure Arkstfan/Bird can attest to the accuracy...

North Texas was then invited again and declined out of loyalty to its faithful conference mates. NMSU and Idaho then asked for, and received everyone's blessing to join the WAC.

The Sun Belt and WAC then started the expansion by filling and further backfilling with 1-AA schools and that boom continues to this day: Texas State, UTSA, Troy, FAU, FIU, South Alabama, Western Kentucky, ODU, Charlotte, App St, Coastal Carolina, Georgia Southern, Georgia State, etc...

10% of FBS members are a direct result of this debacle, including 30% of the continuously watered down G5 swamp... and it all started with a filthy backstab by

South Alabama was a founding member

(09-29-2021 11:59 PM)StillGotIt Wrote:  

(09-29-2021 02:49 PM)RamblinRedWolf Wrote:  I'm sure Arkstfan/Bird can attest to the accuracy...

"I do. I have had extensive discussion with both Dr Pohl and SBC Commish Wright Waters concerning what transpired.

NCAA Div 1 football playing conferences were required to have a minimum of seven football teams.

Division 1 independence is a death sentence for a small time program without deep pockets. Scheduling is near impossible and travel costs are prohibitive, especially for a remote western school. Utah St had just won 25 basketball games and WAC Comish Karl Benson, who was on the selection committee worked to have them denied entry into the tourney. WAC schools would basically abuse Utah St and Idaho for self amusement.

The WAC was left with only six members (Hawaii, SJSU, Fresno, Nevada, Boise St, and La Tech) in 2005 after Rice, SMU, Tulsa, and UTEP bolted for CUSA. La Tech was suddenly isolated by thousands of miles from their nearest conference mate. The WAC would have to add at least one football school to remain a conference.

At the time, the Sun Belt had five full members that played football (MTSU, Arkansas St, Louisiana, North Texas, and NMSU) and three associate football members (ULM, impoverished Idaho, and a Utah State program that was unnecessarily rescued from certain demise in 2003). ULM refused to leave the Southland because of their incredibly low budget.

MTSU wanted to go to the MAC, and the other SBC members proposed a WAC merge, with Arkansas St, Louisiana, North Texas, and NMSU joining the WAC along with associate members Utah State and Idaho. This idea was strongly supported by WAC member La Tech and opposed by Hawaii because they didn't want 'more eastern members'.

The proposal was "WE ALL JOIN OR NOBODY JOINS".

Benson countered by inviting only North Texas which replied NO. Benson then invited North Texas and NMSU, along with the threat that if North Texas declined Arkansas or Louisiana would be invited instead and "North Texas would soon be out of Division 1 football". North Texas and NMSU both declined, and so did both Arkansas St and Louisiana.

The WAC needed seven schools to qualify as a football conference and only had six, and there were no other options. A WAC - Sun Belt merger was becoming inevitable, well, that is, unless any SBC school broke its promise.

Utah State, one of the two schools that the WAC members were most strongly opposed to, receives an invitation and instantly accepts. "Its a dream come true!" proclaims Rance Pugmire as his school knifed in the back those Sun Belt schools that had just rescued his a year earlier.

The WAC was saved at the expense of the Sun Belt. The Sun Belt was fully expected to die.

North Texas was then invited again and declined out of loyalty to its faithful conference mates. NMSU and Idaho then asked for, and received everyone's blessing to join the WAC.

The Sun Belt and WAC then started the expansion by filling and further backfilling with 1-AA schools and that boom continues to this day: Texas State, UTSA, Troy, FAU, FIU, South Alabama, Western Kentucky, ODU, Charlotte, App St, Coastal Carolina, Georgia Southern, Georgia State, etc...

10% of FBS members are a direct result of this debacle, including 30% of the continuously watered down G5 swamp... and it all started with a filthy backstab by Utah State.

I hope nobody offers help if Utah State is again alienated by the MWC being depleted of too many teams through Big XII and AAC expansion.

Other than that I don't like USU and don't don't think we should ever lower ourselves to interact with them."

South Alabama was a founding member

You were a founding member in Basketball, but this concerning the football side of the league.

(09-30-2021 12:01 AM)chiefsfan Wrote:  

(09-29-2021 11:59 PM)StillGotIt Wrote:  

(09-29-2021 02:49 PM)RamblinRedWolf Wrote:  I'm sure Arkstfan/Bird can attest to the accuracy...

"I do. I have had extensive discussion with both Dr Pohl and SBC Commish Wright Waters concerning what transpired.

NCAA Div 1 football playing conferences were required to have a minimum of seven football teams.

Division 1 independence is a death sentence for a small time program without deep pockets. Scheduling is near impossible and travel costs are prohibitive, especially for a remote western school. Utah St had just won 25 basketball games and WAC Comish Karl Benson, who was on the selection committee worked to have them denied entry into the tourney. WAC schools would basically abuse Utah St and Idaho for self amusement.

The WAC was left with only six members (Hawaii, SJSU, Fresno, Nevada, Boise St, and La Tech) in 2005 after Rice, SMU, Tulsa, and UTEP bolted for CUSA. La Tech was suddenly isolated by thousands of miles from their nearest conference mate. The WAC would have to add at least one football school to remain a conference.

At the time, the Sun Belt had five full members that played football (MTSU, Arkansas St, Louisiana, North Texas, and NMSU) and three associate football members (ULM, impoverished Idaho, and a Utah State program that was unnecessarily rescued from certain demise in 2003). ULM refused to leave the Southland because of their incredibly low budget.

MTSU wanted to go to the MAC, and the other SBC members proposed a WAC merge, with Arkansas St, Louisiana, North Texas, and NMSU joining the WAC along with associate members Utah State and Idaho. This idea was strongly supported by WAC member La Tech and opposed by Hawaii because they didn't want 'more eastern members'.

The proposal was "WE ALL JOIN OR NOBODY JOINS".

Benson countered by inviting only North Texas which replied NO. Benson then invited North Texas and NMSU, along with the threat that if North Texas declined Arkansas or Louisiana would be invited instead and "North Texas would soon be out of Division 1 football". North Texas and NMSU both declined, and so did both Arkansas St and Louisiana.

The WAC needed seven schools to qualify as a football conference and only had six, and there were no other options. A WAC - Sun Belt merger was becoming inevitable, well, that is, unless any SBC school broke its promise.

Utah State, one of the two schools that the WAC members were most strongly opposed to, receives an invitation and instantly accepts. "Its a dream come true!" proclaims Rance Pugmire as his school knifed in the back those Sun Belt schools that had just rescued his a year earlier.

The WAC was saved at the expense of the Sun Belt. The Sun Belt was fully expected to die.

North Texas was then invited again and declined out of loyalty to its faithful conference mates. NMSU and Idaho then asked for, and received everyone's blessing to join the WAC.

The Sun Belt and WAC then started the expansion by filling and further backfilling with 1-AA schools and that boom continues to this day: Texas State, UTSA, Troy, FAU, FIU, South Alabama, Western Kentucky, ODU, Charlotte, App St, Coastal Carolina, Georgia Southern, Georgia State, etc...

10% of FBS members are a direct result of this debacle, including 30% of the continuously watered down G5 swamp... and it all started with a filthy backstab by Utah State.

I hope nobody offers help if Utah State is again alienated by the MWC being depleted of too many teams through Big XII and AAC expansion.

Other than that I don't like USU and don't don't think we should ever lower ourselves to interact with them."

South Alabama was a founding member

You were a founding member in Basketball, but this concerning the football side of the league.

When the league was founded it didn’t include football, but my point was that South wasn’t one of the “back filled from 1-AA schools”. We’ve been here from the beginning as full members, we just started football.

I was given this really great book of the history of the conference I wish I hadn't lost (hope the conference does another publication detailing the leagues history as it is quite fascinating).

(09-30-2021 12:15 AM)StillGotIt Wrote:  When the league was founded it didn’t include football, but my point was that South wasn’t one of the “back filled from 1-AA schools”. We’ve been here from the beginning as full members, we just started football.

We weren't a founding member, but we had been in the SBC for a while (since 1982). The FBS plans did come after all this though. There was a time when our I-AA Football program was almost axed due to budget cuts. Donors/Boosters and the Harbaughs basically saved it from the guillotine.

I don't know that the SBC/WAC mess would have truly prevented a move up by many programs anyway. There are too many colleges that value football in the South. An FBS league would have eventually sprung up if the SBC wasn't available.

(09-29-2021 08:46 PM)CAJUNNATION Wrote:  

(09-29-2021 03:52 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  The basic gist is correct. Few facts are off.

Number needed was 8 not 7.

NMSU had already jumped.

It was Louisiana instead of UNT that was the threat if UNT balked.

It was the Cali schools who didn’t want to add more than one eastern team.

But yes, the WACs refusal to take UNT, UL, AState, and MTSU as a unit is why Sun Belt exists today.

BOP will contradict what I’m about to say, but I believe the person who told me this implicitly.

After NMSU and USU jumped, there was a last minute proposal to add UNT and UL. Our president flew to Denton to convince UNT to say no because if UNT said yes, the pressure for him to say yes as well would have been a huge problem he didn’t want to deal with.

BOP will not challenge that statement.

(09-29-2021 09:01 PM)CajunFan3406 Wrote:  

(09-29-2021 08:46 PM)CAJUNNATION Wrote:  

(09-29-2021 03:52 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  The basic gist is correct. Few facts are off.

Number needed was 8 not 7.

NMSU had already jumped.

It was Louisiana instead of UNT that was the threat if UNT balked.

It was the Cali schools who didn’t want to add more than one eastern team.

But yes, the WACs refusal to take UNT, UL, AState, and MTSU as a unit is why Sun Belt exists today.

BOP will contradict what I’m about to say, but I believe the person who told me this implicitly.

After NMSU and USU jumped, there was a last minute proposal to add UNT and UL. Our president flew to Denton to convince UNT to say no because if UNT said yes, the pressure for him to say yes as well would have been a huge problem he didn’t want to deal with.

This 100% sounds like something Ray would do.

Man…the what if’s us Cajun fans ask ourselves at night. Only if we had a President with vision and a pair. My god where would we be?

(10-01-2021 09:48 PM)Big Buds Wrote:  

(09-29-2021 09:01 PM)CajunFan3406 Wrote:  

(09-29-2021 08:46 PM)CAJUNNATION Wrote:  

(09-29-2021 03:52 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  The basic gist is correct. Few facts are off.

Number needed was 8 not 7.

NMSU had already jumped.

It was Louisiana instead of UNT that was the threat if UNT balked.

It was the Cali schools who didn’t want to add more than one eastern team.

But yes, the WACs refusal to take UNT, UL, AState, and MTSU as a unit is why Sun Belt exists today.

BOP will contradict what I’m about to say, but I believe the person who told me this implicitly.

After NMSU and USU jumped, there was a last minute proposal to add UNT and UL. Our president flew to Denton to convince UNT to say no because if UNT said yes, the pressure for him to say yes as well would have been a huge problem he didn’t want to deal with.

This 100% sounds like something Ray would do.

Man…the what if’s us Cajun fans ask ourselves at night. Only if we had a President with vision and a pair. My god where would we be?

Louisiana has one now. T-Joe has allowed some pretty good things to happen for athletics. (For one, he hired Dr. Maggard)

(10-01-2021 09:55 PM)CW Fishman Wrote:  

(10-01-2021 09:48 PM)Big Buds Wrote:  

(09-29-2021 09:01 PM)CajunFan3406 Wrote:  

(09-29-2021 08:46 PM)CAJUNNATION Wrote:  

(09-29-2021 03:52 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  The basic gist is correct. Few facts are off.

Number needed was 8 not 7.

NMSU had already jumped.

It was Louisiana instead of UNT that was the threat if UNT balked.

It was the Cali schools who didn’t want to add more than one eastern team.

But yes, the WACs refusal to take UNT, UL, AState, and MTSU as a unit is why Sun Belt exists today.

BOP will contradict what I’m about to say, but I believe the person who told me this implicitly.

After NMSU and USU jumped, there was a last minute proposal to add UNT and UL. Our president flew to Denton to convince UNT to say no because if UNT said yes, the pressure for him to say yes as well would have been a huge problem he didn’t want to deal with.

This 100% sounds like something Ray would do.

Man…the what if’s us Cajun fans ask ourselves at night. Only if we had a President with vision and a pair. My god where would we be?

Louisiana has one now. T-Joe has allowed some pretty good things to happen for athletics. (For one, he hired Dr. Maggard)

Of course. My point was where would we be if we had that type of leadership back in the ‘80s?