(03-26-2021 09:23 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(03-26-2021 09:11 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(03-26-2021 07:58 AM)ken d Wrote:  If drawing G5 size crowds is a success, the bar isn't set very high. What were their TV ratings? I don't expect I'd watch many games no matter what time of year they are played, for the same reasons I don't watch many cornhole matches.

Nobody in the CFL has a stadium capacity above 35k with the lone exception of Edmonton at 55k.

I think that illustrates his point. Running a football league has very high fixed costs, yet we have seen every upstart pro football league end up having only minor league attendance levels at best. In the case of minor league baseball and hockey, the ones affiliated with MLB and the NHL even have the player salaries covered, so minor league owners are purely just focusing on ticket and stadium revenue. Unless the NFL steps in and starts paying the salaries of an upstart league’s players, that’s going to be untenable. Plus, why on Earth would the NFL do that they get a lot more out of Ohio State, Alabama and Clemson training new players AND they’re more marketable and famous when they get drafted, to boot? The fact that a league with the history of the CFL is considering merging with a “league” that went bankrupt before it even played a game shows how fragile these leagues are.

I continue to fail to see the *economic* justification for a new football league. Now, the NFL might want some better training for its practice squad-level players, so maybe there’s some type of pure developmental league opportunities on that front (akin to the Arizona Fall League for MLB), but it definitely doesn’t make any sense in terms of taking players right out of high school.

They're entering into a partnership. They're not merging the leagues into a single entity.

(03-26-2021 11:22 AM)NJMark Wrote:  

(03-26-2021 09:23 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(03-26-2021 09:11 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(03-26-2021 07:58 AM)ken d Wrote:  If drawing G5 size crowds is a success, the bar isn't set very high. What were their TV ratings? I don't expect I'd watch many games no matter what time of year they are played, for the same reasons I don't watch many cornhole matches.

Nobody in the CFL has a stadium capacity above 35k with the lone exception of Edmonton at 55k.

I think that illustrates his point. Running a football league has very high fixed costs, yet we have seen every upstart pro football league end up having only minor league attendance levels at best. In the case of minor league baseball and hockey, the ones affiliated with MLB and the NHL even have the player salaries covered, so minor league owners are purely just focusing on ticket and stadium revenue. Unless the NFL steps in and starts paying the salaries of an upstart league’s players, that’s going to be untenable. Plus, why on Earth would the NFL do that they get a lot more out of Ohio State, Alabama and Clemson training new players AND they’re more marketable and famous when they get drafted, to boot? The fact that a league with the history of the CFL is considering merging with a “league” that went bankrupt before it even played a game shows how fragile these leagues are.

I continue to fail to see the *economic* justification for a new football league. Now, the NFL might want some better training for its practice squad-level players, so maybe there’s some type of pure developmental league opportunities on that front (akin to the Arizona Fall League for MLB), but it definitely doesn’t make any sense in terms of taking players right out of high school.

They're entering into a partnership. They're not merging the leagues into a single entity.

It could be a full blown merger. Details have not been finalized.

The timing of the season is problematic for any Canadian-US league. Minor league football in the US is a no go from Sept-Jan. There’s no way they can complete with college and NFL. Canadian football starts in the summer and goes through November. The US based teams would struggle for fans beginning in September. Teams in the South would struggle in the summer months due to the heat.

The schedule the XFL and AAF tried won’t work for Canada—too cold.

So here’s my wild idea—have the CFL teams play a 10 game Spring season in the USA with American team names and American rules.

Then play a shortened, 12 or 14 game CFL season.

As far as US markets go, Orlando and San Antonio are musts. Both had really good showings in 2019.

Always thought a Spring league could succeed. I think football fans would love to watch the XFL where there isn't a stoppage of play after every play for a review or penalty. I really thought the 2nd XFL was going to succeed and it might yet.

Here's an idea: run two leagues with the same players basically playing the fall in Canada and the spring in the US.

CFL West: Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Saskatchewan, Winnipeg
CFL East: Hamilton, Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Moncton

XFL West: Portland, San Diego, Dallas, San Antonio, St. Louis
XFL East: Orlando, Charlotte, New York, Atlanta, Washington DC

I think they should do a 8-10 week summer league for NFL teams leading up to spring training. Some in other close by markets and for larger metros smaller stadiums in the MSA
Seahawks - Portland
49ers - San Jose
Chargers - Dignity Park
Rams - Banc of California
Broncos - Rio Trinto
Raiders - Reno
Cardinals - Albuquerque
Cowboys - Frisco
Texans - BBVA Stadium
Chiefs - Childrens Mercy Park
Vikings - Alliance Field
Packers - Milawukee
Bears - Evanston
Colts - Indy Eleven Stadium
Bengals - West End Stadium
Titans - Memphis
Saints - Birmingham
Browns - Canton
Lions -Ypsilanti
Steelers - Hersey
Eagles - Subaru Park
Giants - Yankee Stadium
Jets - Red Bull Arena
Bills - Toronto
Patriots - Fenway Park
Ravens - Annapolis
Washington - Audi Field
Panthers - Charleston
Falcons - Georgia State Stadium
Jaguars - Orlando
Buccaneers - Tropicana Field
Dolphins - Inter Miami CF Stadium

(03-26-2021 02:34 PM)Carolina_Low_Country Wrote:  I think they should do a 8-10 week summer league for NFL teams leading up to spring training. Some in other close by markets and for larger metros smaller stadiums in the MSA
Seahawks - Portland
49ers - San Jose
Chargers - Dignity Park
Rams - Banc of California
Broncos - Rio Trinto
Raiders - Reno
Cardinals - Albuquerque
Cowboys - Frisco
Texans - BBVA Stadium
Chiefs - Childrens Mercy Park
Vikings - Alliance Field
Packers - Milawukee
Bears - Evanston
Colts - Indy Eleven Stadium
Bengals - West End Stadium
Titans - Memphis
Saints - Birmingham
Browns - Canton
Lions -Ypsilanti
Steelers - Hersey
Eagles - Subaru Park
Giants - Yankee Stadium
Jets - Red Bull Arena
Bills - Toronto
Patriots - Fenway Park
Ravens - Annapolis
Washington - Audi Field
Panthers - Charleston
Falcons - Georgia State Stadium
Jaguars - Orlando
Buccaneers - Tropicana Field
Dolphins - Inter Miami CF Stadium

I certainly think it would be entertaining if each NFL team fielded a Spring team of newly drafted players, free agent signings, and less experienced players buried on the depth chart that could use some reps.

(03-25-2021 11:15 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  XFL: Salt Lake City, San Diego, Colorado Springs, San Antonio, Louisville, Birmingham, Orlando, Greenville

Any US football startup that doesn't have St. Louis on it's market list is screwing up big time. Has an empty domed stadium and a passionate fanbase screwed over big time by the NFL, hence why they were drawing sellout crowds in the lower bowl for the Battlehawks (were going to open the upper deck until COVID shut things down) and solid ratings.

I'm really interested what the XFL's financial projections were going into March of last year. They were seeing good TV numbers and pretty positive reception up until that point, who knows how it would've turned out. McMahon is a shady figure though, knowing how other startup leagues have ended I doubt they'd have found a way to survive long-term.

(03-26-2021 11:32 AM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  

(03-26-2021 11:22 AM)NJMark Wrote:  

(03-26-2021 09:23 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(03-26-2021 09:11 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(03-26-2021 07:58 AM)ken d Wrote:  If drawing G5 size crowds is a success, the bar isn't set very high. What were their TV ratings? I don't expect I'd watch many games no matter what time of year they are played, for the same reasons I don't watch many cornhole matches.

Nobody in the CFL has a stadium capacity above 35k with the lone exception of Edmonton at 55k.

I think that illustrates his point. Running a football league has very high fixed costs, yet we have seen every upstart pro football league end up having only minor league attendance levels at best. In the case of minor league baseball and hockey, the ones affiliated with MLB and the NHL even have the player salaries covered, so minor league owners are purely just focusing on ticket and stadium revenue. Unless the NFL steps in and starts paying the salaries of an upstart league’s players, that’s going to be untenable. Plus, why on Earth would the NFL do that they get a lot more out of Ohio State, Alabama and Clemson training new players AND they’re more marketable and famous when they get drafted, to boot? The fact that a league with the history of the CFL is considering merging with a “league” that went bankrupt before it even played a game shows how fragile these leagues are.

I continue to fail to see the *economic* justification for a new football league. Now, the NFL might want some better training for its practice squad-level players, so maybe there’s some type of pure developmental league opportunities on that front (akin to the Arizona Fall League for MLB), but it definitely doesn’t make any sense in terms of taking players right out of high school.

They're entering into a partnership. They're not merging the leagues into a single entity.

It could be a full blown merger. Details have not been finalized.

Sure, I guess anything "could be." But they've only announced a partnership so far.

(03-26-2021 03:34 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  

(03-25-2021 11:15 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  XFL: Salt Lake City, San Diego, Colorado Springs, San Antonio, Louisville, Birmingham, Orlando, Greenville

Any US football startup that doesn't have St. Louis on it's market list is screwing up big time. Has an empty domed stadium and a passionate fanbase screwed over big time by the NFL, hence why they were drawing sellout crowds in the lower bowl for the Battlehawks (were going to open the upper deck until COVID shut things down) and solid ratings.

I'm really interested what the XFL's financial projections were going into March of last year. They were seeing good TV numbers and pretty positive reception up until that point, who knows how it would've turned out. McMahon is a shady figure though, knowing how other startup leagues have ended I doubt they'd have found a way to survive long-term.

Swap Colorado Springs or Louisville for St. Louis.

(03-26-2021 03:34 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  

(03-25-2021 11:15 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  XFL: Salt Lake City, San Diego, Colorado Springs, San Antonio, Louisville, Birmingham, Orlando, Greenville

Any US football startup that doesn't have St. Louis on it's market list is screwing up big time. Has an empty domed stadium and a passionate fanbase screwed over big time by the NFL, hence why they were drawing sellout crowds in the lower bowl for the Battlehawks (were going to open the upper deck until COVID shut things down) and solid ratings.

I'm really interested what the XFL's financial projections were going into March of last year. They were seeing good TV numbers and pretty positive reception up until that point, who knows how it would've turned out. McMahon is a shady figure though, knowing how other startup leagues have ended I doubt they'd have found a way to survive long-term.

Agree. Greenville, Colorado Springs. LOL, really. Not a chance. Not sure why they are even being suggested.

XFL needs a mix big markets to maximize their TV deal, plus St. Louis, San Antonio, and Orlando. The end. I mean I could see a San Diego also, but I'm not sure how much they supported the AAF team.

Also here is my idea. XFL and CFL would play a March - July or Aug schedule of 10-12 games. Each XFL team would play an XFL schedule plus 2 CFL teams. When XFL teams are playing each other, normal rules apply. Same with CFL teams, they can play by Canadian rules. When XFL team plays CFL, a hybrid game will take place. A larger field, if possible, with 4 downs, and backs in motion like the CFL. Both the XFL and CFL will host their own playoffs, and at the end of that the XFL champion will play the CFL champion in the North American Bowl. Grey Cup will still be awarded to the CFL champ, prior to the North American Bowl. Both leagues would sign a joint TV deal to maximize revenue.

(03-26-2021 02:34 PM)Carolina_Low_Country Wrote:  I think they should do a 8-10 week summer league for NFL teams leading up to spring training. Some in other close by markets and for larger metros smaller stadiums in the MSA
Seahawks - Portland
49ers - San Jose
Chargers - Dignity Park
Rams - Banc of California
Broncos - Rio Trinto
Raiders - Reno
Cardinals - Albuquerque
Cowboys - Frisco
Texans - BBVA Stadium
Chiefs - Childrens Mercy Park
Vikings - Alliance Field
Packers - Milawukee
Bears - Evanston
Colts - Indy Eleven Stadium
Bengals - West End Stadium
Titans - Memphis
Saints - Birmingham
Browns - Canton
Lions -Ypsilanti
Steelers - Hersey
Eagles - Subaru Park
Giants - Yankee Stadium
Jets - Red Bull Arena
Bills - Toronto
Patriots - Fenway Park
Ravens - Annapolis
Washington - Audi Field
Panthers - Charleston
Falcons - Georgia State Stadium
Jaguars - Orlando
Buccaneers - Tropicana Field
Dolphins - Inter Miami CF Stadium

The Bills team would be in Rochester, Patriots team would be in Hartford, and the Panthers would be in Columbia, Myrtle Beach, or Greensboro.

(03-26-2021 07:00 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  Agree. Greenville, Colorado Springs. LOL, really. Not a chance. Not sure why they are even being suggested.

XFL needs a mix big markets to maximize their TV deal, plus St. Louis, San Antonio, and Orlando. The end. I mean I could see a San Diego also, but I'm not sure how much they supported the AAF team.

Gate revenue is part of profitability at this level. The XFL had teams in DC, NY, LA, Tampa Bay, and Houston. They all did terrible at the gate. About 15k. The XFL attendance success stories were St. Louis and Seattle. If I were a franchise owner in this hypothetical league I'd take SLC or San Antonio or Orlando over NY/SF/LA/CHI/DFW and it's not close. You want big markets NOT served by the NFL or recently abandoned by them. I bet you a franchise in Greenville or Colorado Springs would outdraw a franchise in LA or CHI or DFW or NY. Don't be the little fish in a big pond ... be the big fish in a medium pond.

I’d put 4 XFL teams in big markets and 4 in some
Of the biggest non-NFL markets: St Louis, Orlando, San Antonio, and then maybe a football town like Memphis or Birmingham.

For big markets I’d say Atlanta and DFW or Houston

(03-26-2021 07:07 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  Also here is my idea. XFL and CFL would play a March - July or Aug schedule of 10-12 games. Each XFL team would play an XFL schedule plus 2 CFL teams. When XFL teams are playing each other, normal rules apply. Same with CFL teams, they can play by Canadian rules. When XFL team plays CFL, a hybrid game will take place. A larger field, if possible, with 4 downs, and backs in motion like the CFL. Both the XFL and CFL will host their own playoffs, and at the end of that the XFL champion will play the CFL champion in the North American Bowl. Grey Cup will still be awarded to the CFL champ, prior to the North American Bowl. Both leagues would sign a joint TV deal to maximize revenue.

The Canadian teams playing that early in the calendar year is a death sentence. There's a reason why their season starts in June, after the NHL playoffs. They know people aren't interested in May and early June.

A refurbished, air conditioned Dome in Syracuse might work well too in a AAA version of the NFL.

(03-26-2021 07:35 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(03-26-2021 07:00 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  Agree. Greenville, Colorado Springs. LOL, really. Not a chance. Not sure why they are even being suggested.

XFL needs a mix big markets to maximize their TV deal, plus St. Louis, San Antonio, and Orlando. The end. I mean I could see a San Diego also, but I'm not sure how much they supported the AAF team.

Gate revenue is part of profitability at this level. The XFL had teams in DC, NY, LA, Tampa Bay, and Houston. They all did terrible at the gate. About 15k. The XFL attendance success stories were St. Louis and Seattle. If I were a franchise owner in this hypothetical league I'd take SLC or San Antonio or Orlando over NY/SF/LA/CHI/DFW and it's not close. You want big markets NOT served by the NFL or recently abandoned by them. I bet you a franchise in Greenville or Colorado Springs would outdraw a franchise in LA or CHI or DFW or NY. Don't be the little fish in a big pond ... be the big fish in a medium pond.

Where would the Greenville team play? And if I'm not mistaken the Air Force stadium is in the middle of nowhere so that wouldn't be ideal, especially since February/March are the snowiest months in Colorado. Keep in mind DLC didn't draw that well for the AAF.

Fan support isn't a cut and dry equation, some recent southern non-NFL markets like Memphis flopped while northern NFL cities like Seattle worked. You can draw well in NFL markets with a strong local sports culture, if the NFL team is lousy, or if the other stadium isn't nearby. MLS stadiums don't have a high ceiling but even meh crowds there look decent on TV and the lack of supply can push up prices/revenue.

If I had to rank where I'd put startup teams (including backups, or potential expansion after a few years if it succeeds) here's what it'd be:

1. San Antonio (football crazy market without NFL team)
2. St. Louis (see my first post)
3. Orlando (no NFL, renovated stadium, good AAF attendance)
4. Seattle (strong XFL fan support)
5. San Diego (can use new SDSU stadium)
6. Milwaukee (good football market without a nearby NFL team, would only work if they could use Miller Park)
7. San Francisco/Oakland (SF drew well for original XFL and can use the Giants ballpark far from the 49ers, or Oakland if the new A's stadium happens)
8. Portland (no NFL, MLS stadium, rival potential with Seattle)
9. Dallas (didn't draw well for XFL but imo because they were in Arlington so close to the Cowboys, something like the MLS stadium could be better and be a much more intimate venue)
10. DC (numbers weren't great but they filled up the new MLS stadium pretty well, could gain traction since people hate Dan Snyder and their stadium out in Maryland)
11. Sacramento (no NFL and will have MLS stadium soon)
12. Miami (Dolphins are way up north, they could use Marlins Park near the city core)
13. Boston (cold weather and have to compete with the Pats, but strong sports culture and Fenway/Harvard would be much closer to downtown than Foxboro)
14. Louisville/Memphis/Birmingham/Raleigh (insert small southern city here)

(03-26-2021 07:35 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(03-26-2021 07:00 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  Agree. Greenville, Colorado Springs. LOL, really. Not a chance. Not sure why they are even being suggested.

XFL needs a mix big markets to maximize their TV deal, plus St. Louis, San Antonio, and Orlando. The end. I mean I could see a San Diego also, but I'm not sure how much they supported the AAF team.

Gate revenue is part of profitability at this level. The XFL had teams in DC, NY, LA, Tampa Bay, and Houston. They all did terrible at the gate. About 15k. The XFL attendance success stories were St. Louis and Seattle. If I were a franchise owner in this hypothetical league I'd take SLC or San Antonio or Orlando over NY/SF/LA/CHI/DFW and it's not close. You want big markets NOT served by the NFL or recently abandoned by them. I bet you a franchise in Greenville or Colorado Springs would outdraw a franchise in LA or CHI or DFW or NY. Don't be the little fish in a big pond ... be the big fish in a medium pond.

Houston and Tampa Bay weren't bad at the gate, especially since Vince got the Vipers dates rent-free for three years and basically got that in return for renting it for two weeks to prepare for last year's canceled WrestleMania. The Tampa Sports Authority only received the ticket surcharge. It looked poor compared to St. Louis, but Yankees spring training wasn't across the street from The Dome at America's Center.

Unfortunately, playing in NFL or even MLS venues means that those clubs control the revenue any new league would receive from parking to concessions to merchandising, the main leaseholder is in control. It is better to play at a college venue that wants to use its or its food service liquor license to sell booze than use a NFL/MLB/MLS venue as the new league could get closer to break even at the gate.

The AAF was giving away tickets at a greater rate than the XFL. Memphis and Birmingham were good if they had 6,000 paid.

(03-26-2021 08:18 PM)Renandpat Wrote:  

(03-26-2021 07:07 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  Also here is my idea. XFL and CFL would play a March - July or Aug schedule of 10-12 games. Each XFL team would play an XFL schedule plus 2 CFL teams. When XFL teams are playing each other, normal rules apply. Same with CFL teams, they can play by Canadian rules. When XFL team plays CFL, a hybrid game will take place. A larger field, if possible, with 4 downs, and backs in motion like the CFL. Both the XFL and CFL will host their own playoffs, and at the end of that the XFL champion will play the CFL champion in the North American Bowl. Grey Cup will still be awarded to the CFL champ, prior to the North American Bowl. Both leagues would sign a joint TV deal to maximize revenue.

The Canadian teams playing that early in the calendar year is a death sentence. There's a reason why their season starts in June, after the NHL playoffs. They know people aren't interested in May and early June.

If the CFL wants to maximize profits and sign a joint TV deal and have a hybrid league with the XFL, they are going to HAVE to play a Spring/Summer schedule. The NHL will be over by the time the XFL/CFL playoffs start. They simply can't play fall ball and go up against the NFL all year. Won't work.