(12-04-2020 12:45 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(12-04-2020 12:24 PM)FMRocket Wrote:  

(12-03-2020 10:05 PM)inductchuck16 Wrote:  This man’s Cinci bias is showing. LOL at you including your beloved Bearcats with the likes of ND, Iowa St., Kentucky, and Louisville. Get real, y’all are still G5 with a 30k seat stadium. BCatMan also mentioned UT couldn’t compete in the AAC, I call BS on that one too.

^^^ Have to agree also...
For someone who seems to have somewhat of a vested interest in Toledo FB, whether it be past education/employment he seems to like to throw around that (MAC level) analogy quite a bit...
If not for that Big East football money awhile back which enabled UC to shell out $$$ for the Luke Fickell’s of the world, and to dump 75+ million into their stadium, that fbs program in Cincy would still only be an upper tier MAC level program... Bearcat basketball has always been the straw that stirred the drink down there...
:

You're absolutely correct...Cincinnati was incredibly lucky to be pulled from the dregs by the Big East, and moreso, to be able to take advantage of it any lift their profile in the late 00's with their on-field success. I am equally frustrated that Toledo has not been given a shot, as I very much care about our program and feel that we could do the same...however, at some point, we need to start reading the writing on the wall, rather than trying to scratch out a new narrative in the mud. What we are doing right now is entirely unsustainable on a University fiscal level for what little benefit we get out of it...we either need to get a plane ticket, or be happy with where we're at, because investing anymore into the Athletic Department would be fiscal irresponsibility of the highest order given the current state of the University as a whole combined with how much is already lost in the department every year.

I love UT for the opportunities it has given me and for it being the jewel of my hometown as much as I love Cincinnati for the time I was able to wear the red and black and the future it gave me by way of my education...and I want to see them both around and thriving as institutions far into the future, that is why I talk about things a bit differently than just through the scope of being a good football team. I have been to far more UT sporting events than UC events, including the ones I played in, and I have cared about the Rockets since a very old plushy Rocky was hanging above my crib far longer ago than I would like to admit, but I also have a family full of contributing alumni who feel the same way as I do now that they have a different perspective.

Just as an added note, this was my response to that original post about my "bias" and how unfounded it truly was, in case you missed it in that post....and just a nit, Nippert has just over 41,000 seats now, even though it's not really a significant point of conversation.

(12-03-2020 10:15 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  I never once stated that ND and Cincinnati were even remotely on level playing field, but I appreciate the attempt...I listed off other objectively larger and higher profile schools not affiliated with the Big 10 within the Midwest in comparison to Toledo, of which those four, as well as Cincinnati, fit the bill. The other three are pretty much direct competitors with Cincinnati in my opinion, and in many ways UC is in better national standing than UK and Iowa State on the grid-iron, and probably jumping Louisville in short order as evidenced by their ability to consistently win recruiting battles against those schools (something that Toledo has never been able to do despite east's argument to the contrary).

Now that that's done, we should probably continue the conversation about Toledo's athletic department, seeing as how that is the point of this thread, and I never trailed from that point except to respond to others.

Fair enough !!

If any G5 program besides Toledo that could afford the opportunity of crashing the P5 playoff party, I would not mind seeing UC do it...
Not only for the fact that it could knock o$u out off their perpetual superiority complex a bit... Win/win situation ...

(12-04-2020 12:45 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  Now that that's done, we should probably continue the conversation about Toledo's athletic department, seeing as how that is the point of this thread, and I never trailed from that point except to respond to others.

Because you know, you never trailed from the point of the thread, then your comment calling our recruits scraps was on topic. smh. And then so were the responses calling out your comment. But thanks for deciding what "we" should do.

IF our recruits are scraps as BCM contends, wouldn't that also be on the AD? The fan base has given him terrific facilities with which to work. Certainly better than those he's competing against for conference championships and access to post-season. Shouldn't he have chosen coaches able to recruit to CBFs expectations?

So back to my original contention before BCM rudely took the thread off trail (his words),

buck stops at the AD. That SHOULD be by definition of the position. If it isn't, then AD is getting a free pass. If championships are expected and not being obtained, it's the AD's fault.

(12-04-2020 02:36 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  buck stops at the AD. That SHOULD be by definition of the position. If it isn't, then AD is getting a free pass. If championships are expected and not being obtained, it's the AD's fault.

Completely agree...inevitably it is up to him. As I said initially, we as a University and fanbase need to really understand where we are, where we're going, and if what it takes to get to where we want is worth it. I don't think most of our fanbase does...which is where we get so many different ideas of what reasonable expectations for the AD should be. To me, our only expectation should be winning the MAC in as many sports as possible, and we should really limit what our expectations are nationally, especially given the latest Knight Commission recommendation.

With that being said, the expectation of MAC championships isn't possible when the man up top seems to be ok with mediocrity through the ranks based on performance of most of the coaches (though baseball being moved in a new direction was a good step). The issue still remains that there are limitations to that which are outside the AD's control (fiscal) and outside some of those coaches' control (overall player quality in some of the Olympic sports, perception, and facilities, though those change depending on the sport as well). Truthfully, we have only been historically GOOD at two sports that still exist within our Department when it comes to MAC competitiveness (Football and Women's Basketball), both of which currently seem to have coaches that are being shown that mediocre results are ok as long as no NCAA red flags pop up, which shouldn't be the case for the flagship programs in any AD...however, given financial limitations, I'm not sure how much can be done to fix it right now. I guess the AD is in the same position as the University...continue to exist and hope...and I'm not sure I like that for either entity.

(12-04-2020 03:35 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(12-04-2020 02:36 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  buck stops at the AD. That SHOULD be by definition of the position. If it isn't, then AD is getting a free pass. If championships are expected and not being obtained, it's the AD's fault.

... The issue still remains that there are limitations to that which are outside the AD's control (fiscal) and outside some of those coaches' control (overall player quality in some of the Olympic sports, perception, and facilities, though those change depending on the sport as well).

Are we debating whether MOB is the reason we're not winning the B10?

That issue you're referring to, doesn't exist in context let alone remain.

What is beyond their control? We are not competing in the BIG10, the SEC, the P5 for championships. We are competing in the MAC and not winning championships. Our fiscal health and access to player quality relative to other MAC schools is the only relevance.

I am willing to place a share of the blame at MOB's feet, but also I think its fair to acknowledge the budget he has available to him (and in FY21 was cut 15%). And exception would be Candle's salary which MOB fairly should be blamed for that level of investment given the financial resources available to him, including alumni and donor fund raising. Do I think a change at AD it needed, yes probably we are at that point. Do I think a new AD could have a positive impact on theg program.....yes..... but with an important distinction and ceiling. Outside the MAC, UT simply does not have the financial resources that would allow it to consistently perform at the level of other G5 CFB programs we might aspire to, including many having success today and getting national attention and cited as examples here. And with declining enrollment (impacts student fees to UT Athletics) and continued drops/pauses in state support (impacts overall UT budget and transfer of funds into UT Athletics), UT in terms of financial abilities is only going to fall further behind the aforementioned G5 schools. Its actually pretty easy-select an aspirational G5 CFP, then compare budget and resources to see the challenges facing UT.

(12-04-2020 03:42 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  

(12-04-2020 03:35 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(12-04-2020 02:36 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  buck stops at the AD. That SHOULD be by definition of the position. If it isn't, then AD is getting a free pass. If championships are expected and not being obtained, it's the AD's fault.

... The issue still remains that there are limitations to that which are outside the AD's control (fiscal) and outside some of those coaches' control (overall player quality in some of the Olympic sports, perception, and facilities, though those change depending on the sport as well).

Are we debating whether MOB is the reason we're not winning the B10?

That issue you're referring to, doesn't exist in context let alone remain.

What is beyond their control? We are not competing in the BIG10, the SEC, the P5 for championships. We are competing in the MAC and not winning championships. Our fiscal health and access to player quality relative to other MAC schools is the only relevance.

What?! Even when we agree you find one statement to ride (even when it's a correct statement)...you must've been in news media as a professional somewhere down the line.

Are you saying we have the best recruiting pitch for players in the conference in every sport? I didn't even talk about any other conferences in my post and specifically stated that we should strictly worry about the MAC moving forward, yet you somehow infer that I'm trying to compare us to P5 conferences? I just don't quite understand what you're even attempting to do at this point other than just deriding me for the fun of it.

I'm saying we struggle to recruit better baseball players than Kent State who routinely sends people to league, better basketball players than Buffalo who has had recent incredible success, and so on and so forth...perception issues in sports remain the largest hurdle to jump over for ANY program, regardless of the coach...and when looking at our contemporaries, we can't really talk about historic success or ability to move people to a higher level of athletics in many sports. To me, that is outside of the current coaches' control, except for those long tenured coaches like our former baseball coach, and thankfully MOB finally decided that enough was enough. The whole perception and historic lack of success issues are the primary reason why bad programs almost never become good...it's Newton's 1st Law of sports...and we have quite a few bad programs.

And as far as finances are concerned, we are most certainly in the lower half when it comes to overall financial health of the institution...Miami, OU, Buffalo, BGSU, Western and Central Michigan, and Kent State are all better off than us financially, even if they don't funnel money into their AD. We have ballooned our AD budget with a lack of results, and that's on MOB, especially now that he cannot continue to throw money at problems, which is NOT in his control, as I'm fairly certain he doesn't run the fledgling hospital or enrollment offices.

What he can control, personnel and accountability for on field/court/course/etc. performance, is something he hasn't really shown a desire to do for a very long time, and should the expectation of winning MAC championships be the end goal, we can't have an AD who values keeping one's head down more than winning.

If our AD is not doing the job, then the problem is the President and the board for acc epting this less than championship performance!

(12-04-2020 03:52 PM)PaulJ Wrote:  I am willing to place a share of the blame at MOB's feet, but also I think its fair to acknowledge the budget he has available to him (and in FY21 was cut 15%). And exception would be Candle's salary which MOB fairly should be blamed for that level of investment given the financial resources available to him, including alumni and donor fund raising. Do I think a change at AD it needed, yes probably we are at that point. Do I think a new AD could have a positive impact on theg program.....yes..... but with an important distinction and ceiling. Outside the MAC, UT simply does not have the financial resources that would allow it to consistently perform at the level of other G5 CFB programs we might aspire to, including many having success today and getting national attention and cited as examples here. And with declining enrollment (impacts student fees to UT Athletics) and continued drops/pauses in state support (impacts overall UT budget and transfer of funds into UT Athletics), UT in terms of financial abilities is only going to fall further behind the aforementioned G5 schools. Its actually pretty easy-select an aspirational G5 CFP, then compare budget and resources to see the challenges facing UT.

Exactly what I've been attempting to say this whole time, with one eagle picking at my liver for the better part of this thread.

(12-04-2020 03:57 PM)Party on the hill Wrote:  If our AD is not doing the job, then the problem is the President and the board for acc epting this less than championship performance!

perhaps, but I can assure you even though the UT President (current and recent) and the Board love to tote and acknowledge the successes of our programs, teams and student athletes - as they should as they deserve it - securing MAC championships, which is the goal of all UT programs, it not something that is a huge priority for UT Board or President. More so in last few decades and now in current financial situation, frankly their priorities in terms of Athletics is good PR (especially no scandals, and occasional high profile wins/championships), graduation of student athletes, and fiscal responsibility.

(12-04-2020 03:55 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(12-04-2020 03:42 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  

(12-04-2020 03:35 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(12-04-2020 02:36 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  buck stops at the AD. That SHOULD be by definition of the position. If it isn't, then AD is getting a free pass. If championships are expected and not being obtained, it's the AD's fault.

... The issue still remains that there are limitations to that which are outside the AD's control (fiscal) and outside some of those coaches' control (overall player quality in some of the Olympic sports, perception, and facilities, though those change depending on the sport as well).

Are we debating whether MOB is the reason we're not winning the B10?

That issue you're referring to, doesn't exist in context let alone remain.

What is beyond their control? We are not competing in the BIG10, the SEC, the P5 for championships. We are competing in the MAC and not winning championships. Our fiscal health and access to player quality relative to other MAC schools is the only relevance.

What?! Even when we agree you find one statement to ride (even when it's a correct statement)...you must've been in news media as a professional somewhere down the line.

Are you saying we have the best recruiting pitch for players in the conference in every sport? I didn't even talk about any other conferences in my post and specifically stated that we should strictly worry about the MAC moving forward, yet you somehow infer that I'm trying to compare us to P5 conferences? I just don't quite understand what you're even attempting to do at this point other than just deriding me for the fun of it.

I'm saying we struggle to recruit better baseball players than Kent State who routinely sends people to league, better basketball players than Buffalo who has had recent incredible success, and so on and so forth...perception issues in sports remain the largest hurdle to jump over for ANY program, regardless of the coach...and when looking at our contemporaries, we can't really talk about historic success or ability to move people to a higher level of athletics in many sports. To me, that is outside of the current coaches' control, except for those long tenured coaches like our former baseball coach, and thankfully MOB finally decided that enough was enough. The whole perception and historic lack of success issues are the primary reason why bad programs almost never become good...it's Newton's 1st Law of sports...and we have quite a few bad programs.

And as far as finances are concerned, we are most certainly in the lower half when it comes to overall financial health of the institution...Miami, OU, Buffalo, BGSU, Western and Central Michigan, and Kent State are all better off than us financially, even if they don't funnel money into their AD. We have ballooned our AD budget with a lack of results, and that's on MOB, especially now that he cannot continue to throw money at problems, which is NOT in his control, as I'm fairly certain he doesn't run the fledgling hospital or enrollment offices.

What he can control, personnel and accountability for on field/court/course/etc. performance, is something he hasn't really shown a desire to do for a very long time, and should the expectation of winning MAC championships be the end goal, we can't have an AD who values keeping one's head down more than winning.

Yea. After 60+ years of not winning a MAC title.