While I haven't started it yet, I think the summary listed below gives some insight into why the country seems so divided...

Quote:Models of capitalism break down every once in a while. Blyth and Longeran present an analogy of the capitalist economy as a computer, with hardware and software, and bugs that build up and require resets and modifications over time. Version one of capitalism ended with the Great Depression and the breakdown of the gold standard. The radical events of the 1930s – namely, fascism, communism and the New Deal – represented attempts at systematic resets. The result was Keynesianism and the creation of version two, which worked for a while but whose bug was inflation. It broke down in the 1970s and 1980s, replaced by privatization, liberalization, globalization and independent central banks. Its flaw was inequality. Cheap credit papered over this shortcoming for decades, but that no longer worked after 2008. Yet instead of resetting the system, as they had before, elites put it on life support, which has exacerbated the weakness (inequality) at its core

It is my contention that Republicans have been terrible advocates of capitalism by allowing known failures to propagate themselves in the name of personal gain. By reveling in the excess of cronyism and monopolies, the GOP opened the door to socialism as a attractive alternative.

Not to hijack your thread...

I also have a book recommendation!

A Gator Took My Toothbrush by Brandon Frisby. (Me)



Currently available for pre-order! Released on 9/8!

My Website - The only way to get a SIGNED copy!

Cedar Fort Publishing (Publisher Site)

Amazon link



Now, back to why Socialism looks attractive.

I think there has never been a generation like the one growing up right now... they are the most entitled, softest, brainwashed group of kids ever. They don't want to work, and want instant gratification. I think Socialism provides them an outlet for those deficiencies.

Fine! I bought your book! LOL. My kid better love it or I'll right a snarky review! j/k

(08-19-2020 08:40 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  While I haven't started it yet, I think the summary listed below gives some insight into why the country seems so divided...

Quote:Models of capitalism break down every once in a while. Blyth and Longeran present an analogy of the capitalist economy as a computer, with hardware and software, and bugs that build up and require resets and modifications over time. Version one of capitalism ended with the Great Depression and the breakdown of the gold standard. The radical events of the 1930s – namely, fascism, communism and the New Deal – represented attempts at systematic resets. The result was Keynesianism and the creation of version two, which worked for a while but whose bug was inflation. It broke down in the 1970s and 1980s, replaced by privatization, liberalization, globalization and independent central banks. Its flaw was inequality. Cheap credit papered over this shortcoming for decades, but that no longer worked after 2008. Yet instead of resetting the system, as they had before, elites put it on life support, which has exacerbated the weakness (inequality) at its core

It is my contention that Republicans have been terrible advocates of capitalism by allowing known failures to propagate themselves in the name of personal gain. By reveling in the excess of cronyism and monopolies, the GOP opened the door to socialism as a attractive alternative.

Interesting...I think the flaw that triggered 2008 wasn't as much as cheap credit, but forced credit for those that may not have been able to pay it back off. See Democrat policies. Speaking of which...wasn't the New Deal a democrat policy as well.

It seems that you started by attempting to blame the "R's" but I see it as "D" policy that screwed the pooch.

(08-19-2020 08:40 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  While I haven't started it yet, I think the summary listed below gives some insight into why the country seems so divided...

Quote:Models of capitalism break down every once in a while. Blyth and Longeran present an analogy of the capitalist economy as a computer, with hardware and software, and bugs that build up and require resets and modifications over time. Version one of capitalism ended with the Great Depression and the breakdown of the gold standard. The radical events of the 1930s – namely, fascism, communism and the New Deal – represented attempts at systematic resets. The result was Keynesianism and the creation of version two, which worked for a while but whose bug was inflation. It broke down in the 1970s and 1980s, replaced by privatization, liberalization, globalization and independent central banks. Its flaw was inequality. Cheap credit papered over this shortcoming for decades, but that no longer worked after 2008. Yet instead of resetting the system, as they had before, elites put it on life support, which has exacerbated the weakness (inequality) at its core

It is my contention that Republicans have been terrible advocates of capitalism by allowing known failures to propagate themselves in the name of personal gain. By reveling in the excess of cronyism and monopolies, the GOP opened the door to socialism as a attractive alternative.

Models of capitalism break down when too much socialism impinges on the system. Monopolies don't exist without barriers to entry, and what are the strongest barriers to entry? Government regulation. Cronyism exists because the more the government controls the economy, the more incentive capitalists have to crony up with politicians.

You want money out of government? Get government out of deciding how money gets distributed.

I agree that republicans have been terrible advocates of capitalism. But the problem I see is that they don't advocate for capitalist solutions to very real problems. Bismarck universal private health care and a universal basic income (UBI) based on Milton Friedman's negative income tax or the Boortz-Linder prebate/prefund would provide a much more comprehensive welfare safety net than we have now. Paying for it with a national consumption tax (VAT/GST) and lower, flatter, and broader income taxes, would provide huge incentives for economic growth, and that rising tide is the best way to lift all boats. If republicans got behind that approach, plus legalizing marijuana and decriminalizing other drugs, they would cut off two prime democrat voting blocs--the poor and young people--and win elections for a while--particularly once that growth kicked in and people started seeing their lives getting better and better.

(08-19-2020 08:56 AM)49RFootballNow Wrote:  Fine! I bought your book! LOL. My kid better love it or I'll right a snarky review! j/k

Thank you!!

(08-19-2020 08:46 AM)ECUGrad07 Wrote:  Not to hijack your thread...
I also have a book recommendation!
A Gator Took My Toothbrush by Brandon Frisby. (Me)

Currently available for pre-order! Released on 9/8!
My Website - The only way to get a SIGNED copy!
Cedar Fort Publishing (Publisher Site)
Amazon link

I bought one, and just ordered 3 more. I don't have a child (except a son who is 35, and may send him one as a hint that he and his GF need to get busy), but I do have godsons and my GF has young nieces and nephews, so I can see a round of Christmas presents.

It better be good--but I'm sure it will be.

(08-19-2020 09:02 AM)GrayBeard Wrote:  Interesting...I think the flaw that triggered 2008 wasn't as much as cheap credit, but forced credit for those that may not have been able to pay it back off. See Democrat policies. Speaking of which...wasn't the New Deal a democrat policy as well.

It seems that you started by attempting to blame the "R's" but I see it as "D" policy that screwed the pooch.

First, with respect to 2008, I think the flaw was an abundance of money looking for a stable investment home which it found in the US Housing market. While DNC policies allowed for cheap credit, it was banks that chose to deviate from there decades old approval process as they could bundle and sell off loans. The removal of the banks historic risk enabled the issuance of pointless loans.

But the GOP brands itself as the party of business. Which means its members should be well versed of how and why capitalism fails. Thus the consolidation of wealth, the shrinking of the middle class and the increase in cronyism are problems I lay at their feet.

Don't worry, I view the DNC as terrible advocates for the disenfranchised.

(08-19-2020 09:27 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 09:02 AM)GrayBeard Wrote:  Interesting...I think the flaw that triggered 2008 wasn't as much as cheap credit, but forced credit for those that may not have been able to pay it back off. See Democrat policies. Speaking of which...wasn't the New Deal a democrat policy as well.

It seems that you started by attempting to blame the "R's" but I see it as "D" policy that screwed the pooch.

First, with respect to 2008, I think the flaw was an abundance of money looking for a stable investment home which it found in the US Housing market. While DNC policies allowed for cheap credit, it was banks that chose to deviate from there decades old approval process as they could bundle and sell off loans. The removal of the banks historic risk enabled the issuance of pointless loans.

But the GOP brands itself as the party of business. Which means its members should be well versed of how and why capitalism fails. Thus the consolidation of wealth, the shrinking of the middle class and the increase in cronyism are problems I lay at their feet.

Don't worry, I view the DNC as terrible advocates for the disenfranchised.

Interesting...I see the crumbling middle class as the issue as it is being eaten up on the low end by awful democratic polices and taxes. It's funny how we see it from opposite sides. That should be a thread to itself to really dive into the loss of the middle class. I have always seen that as the US's biggest strength, but it is being destroyed and that will spell doom for the US.

(08-19-2020 09:27 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 08:46 AM)ECUGrad07 Wrote:  Not to hijack your thread...
I also have a book recommendation!
A Gator Took My Toothbrush by Brandon Frisby. (Me)

Currently available for pre-order! Released on 9/8!
My Website - The only way to get a SIGNED copy!
Cedar Fort Publishing (Publisher Site)
Amazon link

I bought one, and just ordered 3 more. I don't have a child (except a son who is 35, and may send him one as a hint that he and his GF need to get busy), but I do have godsons and my GF has young nieces and nephews, so I can see a round of Christmas presents.

It better be good--but I'm sure it will be.

That is just awesome. Thank you so much!

I promise it is good!

The illustrator did an awesome job, and the writing isn't too shabby, either.

(08-19-2020 09:27 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  First, with respect to 2008, I think the flaw was an abundance of money looking for a stable investment home which it found in the US Housing market. While DNC policies allowed for cheap credit, it was banks that chose to deviate from there decades old approval process as they could bundle and sell off loans. The removal of the banks historic risk enabled the issuance of pointless loans.

Allowing for cheap credit wasn't the problem. But the CRA regulations (not the act itself, the regs pursuant to the act, so don't go quoting the act to me in argument), and more particularly the way those regs were enforced in the field, forced banks to make loans for cheap credit. As a banker, your choices were to 1) deviate from your decades old underwriting processes, 2) be labeled a racist, or 3) get out of the mortgage business. We recommended to WaMu they they get out, and after booing us off the stage, they dived headlong in. We know how poorly that worked out.

Quote:But the GOP brands itself as the party of business. Which means its members should be well versed of how and why capitalism fails. Thus the consolidation of wealth, the shrinking of the middle class and the increase in cronyism are problems I lay at their feet.

But what causes those problems? If government is antagonistic towards business, particularly with tax and regulatory policies, businesses are going to invest and make money elsewhere. That's what any rational decision-maker would do. "Tax the rich and evil corporations," means that those "rich" and those "evil corporations" will read the writing on the wall and go elsewhere with their money, their investment, and the jobs they create. One thing I find interesting is that the US middle class is shrinking, but globally the middle class is growing. At least in part, it's because of all those middle class jobs that we have exported.

Quote:Don't worry, I view the DNC as terrible advocates for the disenfranchised.

"Keep 'em dumb, keep 'em poor, keep 'em dependent on handouts, and you'll keep 'em voting democrat." What irks the crap out of me is that republicans can't come up with anything better to counter that.

(08-19-2020 09:30 AM)GrayBeard Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 09:27 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 09:02 AM)GrayBeard Wrote:  Interesting...I think the flaw that triggered 2008 wasn't as much as cheap credit, but forced credit for those that may not have been able to pay it back off. See Democrat policies. Speaking of which...wasn't the New Deal a democrat policy as well.

It seems that you started by attempting to blame the "R's" but I see it as "D" policy that screwed the pooch.

First, with respect to 2008, I think the flaw was an abundance of money looking for a stable investment home which it found in the US Housing market. While DNC policies allowed for cheap credit, it was banks that chose to deviate from there decades old approval process as they could bundle and sell off loans. The removal of the banks historic risk enabled the issuance of pointless loans.

But the GOP brands itself as the party of business. Which means its members should be well versed of how and why capitalism fails. Thus the consolidation of wealth, the shrinking of the middle class and the increase in cronyism are problems I lay at their feet.

Don't worry, I view the DNC as terrible advocates for the disenfranchised.

Interesting...I see the crumbling middle class as the issue as it is being eaten up on the low end by awful democratic polices and taxes. It's funny how we see it from opposite sides. That should be a thread to itself to really dive into the loss of the middle class. I have always seen that as the US's biggest strength, but it is being destroyed and that will spell doom for the US.

I'll find an article on the subject to start off a new thread.

(08-19-2020 09:47 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 09:30 AM)GrayBeard Wrote:  Interesting...I see the crumbling middle class as the issue as it is being eaten up on the low end by awful democratic polices and taxes. It's funny how we see it from opposite sides. That should be a thread to itself to really dive into the loss of the middle class. I have always seen that as the US's biggest strength, but it is being destroyed and that will spell doom for the US.

I'll find an article on the subject to start off a new thread.

What do you need in order to have a growing and thriving middle class? You need a production economy that adds sufficient value to pay middle class wages. A retail/service economy doesn't have that. Walmart is not going to pay middle class wages (except to a few managers and above), because their business model doesn't work if they do. There just isn't enough value added there. They're distributors and sellers, not producers. Taking a rock of iron ore and turning it into a car does create and add sufficient value that everybody along the way can be paid a middle class (or better) wage.

So if we want our middle class back, we have to go from a consumption economy to a production economy. We have significant advantages to use to do that. We have the largest area of contiguous farm land in the world, punctuated by half the miles of navigable water in the world (and floating stuff is the cheapest way to move it, like all that iron ore that got from Minnesota to Pittsburgh and back to Detroit). Mountains and forests to the north, deserts to the south, wide ocean moats east and west, so we have very defensible borders. That means we probably won't get to be Venezuela. But if we squander all those advantages by driving investment away, we won't become what we could be.

I find Europe amazing because they can simultaneously provide a more comprehensive welfare safety net and a more tax-efficient climate for investment than we do. Our natural advantages keep us ahead of the game, but by a neck when it should be by a mile.

(08-19-2020 10:10 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 09:47 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 09:30 AM)GrayBeard Wrote:  Interesting...I see the crumbling middle class as the issue as it is being eaten up on the low end by awful democratic polices and taxes. It's funny how we see it from opposite sides. That should be a thread to itself to really dive into the loss of the middle class. I have always seen that as the US's biggest strength, but it is being destroyed and that will spell doom for the US.

I'll find an article on the subject to start off a new thread.

What do you need in order to have a growing and thriving middle class? You need a production economy that adds sufficient value to pay middle class wages. A retail/service economy doesn't have that. Walmart is not going to pay middle class wages (except to a few managers and above), because their business model doesn't work if they do. There just isn't enough value added there. They're distributors and sellers, not producers. Taking a rock of iron ore and turning it into a car does create and add sufficient value that everybody along the way can be paid a middle class (or better) wage.

So if we want our middle class back, we have to go from a consumption economy to a production economy. We have significant advantages to use to do that. We have the largest area of contiguous farm land in the world, punctuated by half the miles of navigable water in the world (and floating stuff is the cheapest way to move it, like all that iron ore that got from Minnesota to Pittsburgh and back to Detroit). Mountains and forests to the north, deserts to the south, wide ocean moats east and west, so we have very defensible borders. That means we probably won't get to be Venezuela. But if we squander all those advantages by driving investment away, we won't become what we could be.

I find Europe amazing because they can simultaneously provide a more comprehensive welfare safety net and a more tax-efficient climate for investment than we do. Our natural advantages keep us ahead of the game, but by a neck when it should be by a mile.

There is a consumer aspect of that as well. Being conditioned to purchase the cheapest option is a market signal that contributed to the offshoring of manufacturing in order to stay competitive.

(08-19-2020 11:26 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  There is a consumer aspect of that as well. Being conditioned to purchase the cheapest option is a market signal that contributed to the offshoring of manufacturing in order to stay competitive.

But in a global economy that's going to be worldwide. You will always seek the most cost-effective sourcing in order to be competitive.

My point is that if we adopted a "rising tide lifts all boats" economic policy, we have so many inherent natural advantages that we could be more than competitive, we could be dominant across the board.

(08-19-2020 11:39 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 11:26 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  There is a consumer aspect of that as well. Being conditioned to purchase the cheapest option is a market signal that contributed to the offshoring of manufacturing in order to stay competitive.

But in a global economy that's going to be worldwide. You will always seek the most cost-effective sourcing in order to be competitive.

My point is that if we adopted a "rising tide lifts all boats" economic policy, we have so many inherent natural advantages that we could be more than competitive, we could be dominant across the board.

I think the bolded is really the economic question of the 21st century. What is the value of a global economy for the US?

(08-19-2020 09:32 AM)ECUGrad07 Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 09:27 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 08:46 AM)ECUGrad07 Wrote:  Not to hijack your thread...
I also have a book recommendation!
A Gator Took My Toothbrush by Brandon Frisby. (Me)

Currently available for pre-order! Released on 9/8!
My Website - The only way to get a SIGNED copy!
Cedar Fort Publishing (Publisher Site)
Amazon link

I bought one, and just ordered 3 more. I don't have a child (except a son who is 35, and may send him one as a hint that he and his GF need to get busy), but I do have godsons and my GF has young nieces and nephews, so I can see a round of Christmas presents.
It better be good--but I'm sure it will be.

That is just awesome. Thank you so much!
I promise it is good!
The illustrator did an awesome job, and the writing isn't too shabby, either.

Came today. It's wonderful, really a fun little book. The children will enjoy it.

(09-01-2020 11:43 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 09:32 AM)ECUGrad07 Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 09:27 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(08-19-2020 08:46 AM)ECUGrad07 Wrote:  Not to hijack your thread...
I also have a book recommendation!
A Gator Took My Toothbrush by Brandon Frisby. (Me)

Currently available for pre-order! Released on 9/8!
My Website - The only way to get a SIGNED copy!
Cedar Fort Publishing (Publisher Site)
Amazon link

I bought one, and just ordered 3 more. I don't have a child (except a son who is 35, and may send him one as a hint that he and his GF need to get busy), but I do have godsons and my GF has young nieces and nephews, so I can see a round of Christmas presents.
It better be good--but I'm sure it will be.

That is just awesome. Thank you so much!
I promise it is good!
The illustrator did an awesome job, and the writing isn't too shabby, either.

Came today. It's wonderful, really a fun little book. The children will enjoy it.

We got our's a couple of days ago. The Nugget likes it very much. Good job!