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Why didn’t the Southland fight harder to stay DI-A?
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Kit-Cat Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Why didn’t the Southland fight harder to stay DI-A?
(07-07-2020 05:38 AM)esayem Wrote:  Here you are, from 1982, right before the season:

In addition to the Ivy League and Southern Conference, the Southland Conference was reclassified as 1-AA. Southwestern Louisiana, now an Independent with 1-A status, withdrew from the Southland after the 1981 season. The schools in Division 1-A include 71 members of eight conferences - the Big Ten, Southeastern, Big 8. Pacific-10, Southwest, Atlantic Coast, Western Athletic and Pacific Coast - along with 20 independents. The remaining five schools are Central Michigan and Toledo of the Mid-American Conference and Tulsa, Wichita State and New Mexico State of the Missouri Valley. An interesting case has developed in the Mid-American Conference, which has a commitment to send its champion to the California Bowl. Two schools remain in 1-A while the rest of the conference dropped to 1-AA. While the MAC champion seems assured of a berth in the 1-AA playoffs, the conference said its winner, regardless of classification, will play in the California Bowl.

Of course, we know the MAC teams and Cincinnati were reviewed again and reinstated as 1-A programs.

Where is the Big West in all of this?

Pacific, Fullerton St and Long Beach St all made the attendance requirement initially?

This I find hard to believe.
07-07-2020 05:15 PM
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solohawks Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Why didn’t the Southland fight harder to stay DI-A?
(07-07-2020 05:15 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  
(07-07-2020 05:38 AM)esayem Wrote:  Here you are, from 1982, right before the season:

In addition to the Ivy League and Southern Conference, the Southland Conference was reclassified as 1-AA. Southwestern Louisiana, now an Independent with 1-A status, withdrew from the Southland after the 1981 season. The schools in Division 1-A include 71 members of eight conferences - the Big Ten, Southeastern, Big 8. Pacific-10, Southwest, Atlantic Coast, Western Athletic and Pacific Coast - along with 20 independents. The remaining five schools are Central Michigan and Toledo of the Mid-American Conference and Tulsa, Wichita State and New Mexico State of the Missouri Valley. An interesting case has developed in the Mid-American Conference, which has a commitment to send its champion to the California Bowl. Two schools remain in 1-A while the rest of the conference dropped to 1-AA. While the MAC champion seems assured of a berth in the 1-AA playoffs, the conference said its winner, regardless of classification, will play in the California Bowl.

Of course, we know the MAC teams and Cincinnati were reviewed again and reinstated as 1-A programs.

Where is the Big West in all of this?

Pacific, Fullerton St and Long Beach St all made the attendance requirement initially?

This I find hard to believe.

PCAA
Qualified (4): Fresno State, Pacific, UNLV (Ind in 1981; joined PCAA in 1982), Utah State
Not qualified but saved by conference (3): CSU Fullerton, Long Beach State, San Jose State
Non-football (2): UC Irvine, UC Santa Barbara


Pacific did make the cut. Fullerton, Long Beach, and San Jose were saved. Who knows where SJSU would be now if UNLV had remained independent for another year
07-07-2020 05:22 PM
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Kit-Cat Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Why didn’t the Southland fight harder to stay DI-A?
Cal State Fullerton 1981 home attendance:

Cal Poly 5,125
Long Beach St. 3,800
Boise St 2,100
Nevada 2,500

Surely they didn't qualify for 1-A without a conference rule.
07-07-2020 05:41 PM
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Kit-Cat Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Why didn’t the Southland fight harder to stay DI-A?
(07-07-2020 05:22 PM)solohawks Wrote:  
(07-07-2020 05:15 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  
(07-07-2020 05:38 AM)esayem Wrote:  Here you are, from 1982, right before the season:

In addition to the Ivy League and Southern Conference, the Southland Conference was reclassified as 1-AA. Southwestern Louisiana, now an Independent with 1-A status, withdrew from the Southland after the 1981 season. The schools in Division 1-A include 71 members of eight conferences - the Big Ten, Southeastern, Big 8. Pacific-10, Southwest, Atlantic Coast, Western Athletic and Pacific Coast - along with 20 independents. The remaining five schools are Central Michigan and Toledo of the Mid-American Conference and Tulsa, Wichita State and New Mexico State of the Missouri Valley. An interesting case has developed in the Mid-American Conference, which has a commitment to send its champion to the California Bowl. Two schools remain in 1-A while the rest of the conference dropped to 1-AA. While the MAC champion seems assured of a berth in the 1-AA playoffs, the conference said its winner, regardless of classification, will play in the California Bowl.

Of course, we know the MAC teams and Cincinnati were reviewed again and reinstated as 1-A programs.

Where is the Big West in all of this?

Pacific, Fullerton St and Long Beach St all made the attendance requirement initially?

This I find hard to believe.

PCAA
Qualified (4): Fresno State, Pacific, UNLV (Ind in 1981; joined PCAA in 1982), Utah State
Not qualified but saved by conference (3): CSU Fullerton, Long Beach State, San Jose State
Non-football (2): UC Irvine, UC Santa Barbara


Pacific did make the cut. Fullerton, Long Beach, and San Jose were saved. Who knows where SJSU would be now if UNLV had remained independent for another year

Pacific actually had a stadium with a capacity of 35,975 when built. Attendance though was MAC level. Pacific might have still been around in FBS if SJSU didn't get the nod for the WAC over them.

Fullerton was hardly even a real program. Only played 2 or 3 home games a season in front of 2,500 fans. More of a DII level program than even 1-AA.

Fullerton, Pacific and Long Beach all relied on the fans of SDSU and Fresno St and without them in conference couldn't survive.

Its worth noting that UC Santa Barbara cut FB in 1971 but had some potential to make 1-A playing in a 17,000 seat stadium had they continued.
07-07-2020 06:00 PM
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Post: #25
RE: Why didn’t the Southland fight harder to stay DI-A?
(07-07-2020 11:21 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  UTA and Lamar both decided that no football was better than FCS football so they clearly didn’t think that FCS was working for them.

SBC members LA Tech and Ark St, as well as nearby independents ULM and UNT moved up within a decade and a half so clearly FCS wasn’t all that great or desired by the demoted schools.

Lamar football was discontinued via a very unpopular 5-4 vote. Link - Lamar drops football The stated reason was over money. Football support took a big drop for several reasons after the conference was forced down to I-AA. The team had some very bad years starting in the mid 1970's with some exceptions. Stress on support was further complicated when the area was hit very hard economically during the oil bust starting in the mid 80's on through to the early 90's. Another contributing factor might have been the success of men's basketball. Billy Tubbs and Pat Foster took the Cardinals to 4 NCAA tournaments and 4 NIT tournaments from 1978-79 through 1985-86 finishing as high as the Sweet 16. Basketball's success didn't affect my family. We had season basketball and football tickets. It might have forced others with less disposable income to make entertainment choices, though; especially when factoring in the oil bust.

There was a stark difference in the enthusiasm and butts in the stands when comparing 1976-1981 versus the post force down years. Four of the six highest attended games in the football stadium's history were in the mid 1970's to 1980 (18,500, 17,600, 17,250, 17,222). Attendance figures weren't padded for those games. The stadium was packed or close to packed for most of the games during that time. I was a season ticket holder from the mid 1970's through 1989 (and again from the restart until my wife and I moved from Houston to another state a few years ago). Following the force down, attendance suffered greatly. For football, the 1982 season started pretty well for I-AA attendance with around 12,000 and 13,300 in the first two home games. Attendance dropped like a rock after that. Attendance at the final game that season was less than 3,000.

The university president at the time the program was discontinued resigned his position about 1 1/2 years later. An article about Lamar University's history describes the time immediately following the decison as "...a time of turbulence in Lamar University’s administration." Link - Lamar history (I don't think all turbulence could be attributed to dropping a sport.)
(This post was last modified: 07-08-2020 09:25 AM by LUSportsFan.)
07-07-2020 06:57 PM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Why didn’t the Southland fight harder to stay DI-A?
(07-07-2020 05:41 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  Cal State Fullerton 1981 home attendance:

Cal Poly 5,125
Long Beach St. 3,800
Boise St 2,100
Nevada 2,500

Surely they didn't qualify for 1-A without a conference rule.

Correct. As Solohawks illustrated above, they were saved by other members of the conference.

UNLV may not have even been considered in the formula, so half the conference still met the requirement. UNLV had just missed their boat to the WAC and settled on the PCC/Big West.
07-07-2020 07:13 PM
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Post: #27
RE: Why didn’t the Southland fight harder to stay DI-A?
(07-07-2020 05:16 AM)esayem Wrote:  From my understanding, there was another mass migration of schools from 1-A to 1-AA between the 1981 and 1982 seasons.

Quite. The first NCAA delineation didn't see as many conferences on the 1-AA side of the divide as had been expected, and so a critical "or" in the criteria was changed to an "and" in the revised rule, in an effort to push more conferences into the 1-AA side of the fence.

It seems the MAC appealed on the basis of the evaluation mis-classifying schools, not on the basis of any realignment ... and I am sure having the Big Ten in our corner saying, "you REALLY need to make sure you are not classifying those schools incorrectly" couldn't have done any harm.

I was completely oblivious to all of this as it was happening, looking for a game to watch the Bengals on Sunday if they were being broadcast and taking advantage of students who wanted to go to some of the Red(something)s games on Saturday by getting a nice quiet Saturday afternoon work study shift at the library.
07-07-2020 08:00 PM
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Post: #28
RE: Why didn’t the Southland fight harder to stay DI-A?
https://vault.si.com/vault/1978/01/23/th...-decisione

Here is an interesting article on the heels of the vote to establish a subclassification of 1AA but prior to forced reclassification. Apparently it passed with the help of non-football schools who were promised this would only apply to football and not all sports as previously proposed, where no football = 1AA classification

Here is the first 1A rules:
Quote:These are the criteria for a school's admittance to I-A:
60% of its games against other I-A teams

Either a 30,000-seat stadium and an average attendance of 17,000 for one year in the last four, or an average of 17,000 over the last four year

if a school has either of the attendance requirements, an eight-sport program will suffice

If not, it must have a 12-sport program - IVY LEAGUE AMENDMENT

Here are some arguments against this new subdivision followed by author's rebuttal

Quote:"Subdivision will be the death of the I-AA schools. Reclassification will make them second-class citizens, and they will suffer accordingly in recruiting and support."

"Nonsense. If Divisions II and III do not rail over classification and do not have heavy attrition rates, why should I-AA? Except at convention time, classification seldom gets a discouraging word, and serves not to point up inferiorities but to keep priorities in order. Below the very top level, divisions tend to run together, anyway.

In truth, most teams that will make up Division I-AA already have been grouped by sterner qualifiers than Roman numerals. The differences are obvious. No recruiter with a lick of sense would try to convince a youngster that playing at, say, Boise State, is the same as playing at Michigan State. By the same token, there are two immediate advantages to participating in I-AA. Less pressure for the Boise State Joneses to live up to the Michigan State Joneses, for one. And two, a playoff similar to that in Divisions II and III has been formulated to provide a I-AA national championship and a $750,000 television payoff (coming from the Division I package recently signed with ABC). Under the old structure, most I-AA schools could expect never to see the inside of a bowl or the figures on a television check. I-AA schools also would be guaranteed regular-season telecasts."

Quote:"The division will be top-heavy; 104 are eligible for I-A, only 40 would be left for I-AA."

"Not likely. Being eligible docs not necessarily mean a school will opt for I-A status. Within a 60-day period, all Division I schools have to declare the division they prefer. They will then have three years to meet the requirements. Originally, the breakdown figured to be 79 in I-A (the seven major conferences and top independents) and 65 in I-AA. The so-called Ivy League amendment, allowing eligibility in I-A for schools fielding teams in 12 intercollegiate sports, put an additional 25 on the roll. It is not likely, however, that in the privacy of their own environments, weighing the alternatives, more than a few of those will opt for I-A."03-rotfl

Quote:"Some conferences will have to shut down because half their teams will go one way, half the other."

"Possibly. For three or four leagues there will be a dilemma. If San Jose State and Long Beach State of the Pacific Coast Athletic Association and Tulsa and New Mexico State of the Missouri Valley opt for I-A, as they likely will, those conferences will face realignment problems. That's nothing new, of course. Losing members is not always tantamount to disaster, and leagues are seldom held sacred by schools who want to get out. They usually don't stand on ceremony—they just get out. The Southern Conference has been playing musical chairs for years. Recent defectors include East Carolina, West Virginia, Richmond and William and Mary. Arizona and Arizona State have recently left the WAC for the Pac-10, as it will soon be called. Reclassification had nothing to do with it."

MY THOUGHTS
The author got that last point dead wrong as this forced realignment caused a tremendous amount of instability in the Southland while causing a major exodus from the MVC. Author was also dead wrong about voluntary subclassification and the TV and financial opportunities for 1AA programs.
(This post was last modified: 07-07-2020 09:44 PM by solohawks.)
07-07-2020 09:37 PM
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solohawks Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Why didn’t the Southland fight harder to stay DI-A?
https://dks.library.kent.edu/?a=d&d=dks1...xIN-------

Here is an article from 1982 about the MAC accepting their fate for the 1982 season. They got the NCAA to not make the reclassification permanent and the right to be reevaluated after the 1982 season

Here is another more detailed one about the initial ruling
https://dks.library.kent.edu/?a=d&d=dks1...xIN-------
(This post was last modified: 07-07-2020 10:00 PM by solohawks.)
07-07-2020 09:57 PM
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Post: #30
RE: Why didn’t the Southland fight harder to stay DI-A?
(07-07-2020 09:37 PM)solohawks Wrote:  https://vault.si.com/vault/1978/01/23/th...-decisione[align=left]

Here is an interesting article on the heels of the vote to establish a subclassification of 1AA but prior to forced reclassification. ...
... Here are some arguments against this new subdivision followed by author's rebuttal

"In truth, most teams that will make up Division I-AA already have been grouped by sterner qualifiers than Roman numerals. The differences are obvious. ... By the same token, there are two immediate advantages to participating in I-AA. Less pressure for the Boise State Joneses to live up to the Michigan State Joneses, for one. And two, a playoff similar to that in Divisions II and III has been formulated ..."

A big problem with the logic of the Division II / Division III analogy is that it neglects the selection bias that exists ... for schools that felt the siren song of being a big fish in a small pond, with a chance to compete for a small school national championship ...
... Div II and Div III already existed.

A lot of those who were going to willingly drop their status had already willingly dropped their status, and Division 1 therefore included a large number of "non major conference" schools that had considered the "big fish in small pond" option already available and had already rejected it, for one reason or another.

So assuming a large number of the "eligible for 1-A but would only be likely to ever seriously compete for a national championship if they dropped to 1-AA" schools would, in fact, voluntarily relegate ignored the reason that many of them were still Division 1 schools in the first place.
07-07-2020 10:08 PM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Why didn’t the Southland fight harder to stay DI-A?
(07-07-2020 09:57 PM)solohawks Wrote:  https://dks.library.kent.edu/?a=d&d=dks1...xIN-------

Here is an article from 1982 about the MAC accepting their fate for the 1982 season. They got the NCAA to not make the reclassification permanent and the right to be reevaluated after the 1982 season

Here is another more detailed one about the initial ruling
https://dks.library.kent.edu/?a=d&d=dks1...xIN-------

Cincinnati, Miami (OH), and Western Michigan were classified as 1-AA in early August 1982.

Cincinnati ended up taking the matter to court to suspend the ruling. Their lawyer even went as far to say that because they were in the Metro they were exempt. The Metro, of course, didn't offer football so it didn't matter. It's a pretty interesting debate that you can find in old newspapers.

Miami (OH) and WMU had their own issues, which I believe involved having the attendance figures.

BGSU and Northern Illinois both had appeals rejected earlier in the year and NIU actually had the 30k stadium capacity, but the NCAA said their seats weren't wide enough! Can't make this stuff up.
07-08-2020 09:36 AM
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solohawks Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Why didn’t the Southland fight harder to stay DI-A?
(07-08-2020 09:36 AM)esayem Wrote:  BGSU and Northern Illinois both had appeals rejected earlier in the year and NIU actually had the 30k stadium capacity, but the NCAA said their seats weren't wide enough! Can't make this stuff up.


That's insane
07-08-2020 10:03 AM
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Post: #33
RE: Why didn’t the Southland fight harder to stay DI-A?
Were they bench seating? I ask because if you have a bench the number of people you can actually fit and the number you declare fit can be very different things. So in this case NIU says this bench can hold 10 people but the NCAA is looking at the same bench and says that 10 people is not possible or only possible in a situation that hey do not think should count( for instance you could fit 10 6 year old kids but at best you could only fit about 7 adults and so the NCAA would say you could only count that bench for 7-8 people not the 10).

I do not know the whole situation but I could see something like that.
07-08-2020 03:21 PM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Why didn’t the Southland fight harder to stay DI-A?
(07-08-2020 03:21 PM)Sultan of Euphonistan Wrote:  Were they bench seating? I ask because if you have a bench the number of people you can actually fit and the number you declare fit can be very different things. So in this case NIU says this bench can hold 10 people but the NCAA is looking at the same bench and says that 10 people is not possible or only possible in a situation that hey do not think should count( for instance you could fit 10 6 year old kids but at best you could only fit about 7 adults and so the NCAA would say you could only count that bench for 7-8 people not the 10).

I do not know the whole situation but I could see something like that.

Their seats were 16 inches instead of 18. They pointed out Ohio State had 16 inch seats and it wasn’t a problem. That’s all I know.
07-08-2020 06:12 PM
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Post: #35
RE: Why didn’t the Southland fight harder to stay DI-A?
Its kind of odd to see NIU, WMU and Bowling Green ranked in the I-AA poll that year.
07-08-2020 07:34 PM
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