Here’s a crazy speculative thought: had other realignment pressures not occurred in the 2010-2014 period might we have seen an FBS CAA?

Full members ODU and GA St jumped to FBS. FB affiliate UMass jumped to FBS. Full member JMU is perhaps the most FBS ready program in FCS.

Nearby Charlotte, Georgia Southern, and App St all jumped to FBS.

Among the other full members, Towson, Delaware, and William & Mary would have had to access if it was conducive for them to move up with their conference mates or consider another home for football, possibly with the Patriot or letting America East take over FCS sponsorship.

Do you see any scenario where the CAA would have brought in UMass, Charlotte, App St, and Georgia Southern and tried to move up en masse together?

(04-30-2020 08:24 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Here’s a crazy speculative thought: had other realignment pressures not occurred in the 2010-2014 period might we have seen an FBS CAA?

Full members ODU and GA St jumped to FBS. FB affiliate UMass jumped to FBS. Full member JMU is perhaps the most FBS ready program in FCS.

Nearby Charlotte, Georgia Southern, and App St all jumped to FBS.

Among the other full members, Towson, Delaware, and William & Mary would have had to access if it was conducive for them to move up with their conference mates or consider another home for football, possibly with the Patriot or letting America East take over FCS sponsorship.

Do you see any scenario where the CAA would have brought in UMass, Charlotte, App St, and Georgia Southern and tried to move up en masse together?

The CAA would have gone FBS. America East would have taken Will & Mary, Richmond, Nova etc.

(04-30-2020 08:24 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Here’s a crazy speculative thought: had other realignment pressures not occurred in the 2010-2014 period might we have seen an FBS CAA?

Full members ODU and GA St jumped to FBS. FB affiliate UMass jumped to FBS. Full member JMU is perhaps the most FBS ready program in FCS.

Nearby Charlotte, Georgia Southern, and App St all jumped to FBS.

Among the other full members, Towson, Delaware, and William & Mary would have had to access if it was conducive for them to move up with their conference mates or consider another home for football, possibly with the Patriot or letting America East take over FCS sponsorship.

Do you see any scenario where the CAA would have brought in UMass, Charlotte, App St, and Georgia Southern and tried to move up en masse together?

There's a reason (well, many, but here's one) why you don't see whole conferences move from FCS to FBS -- because of the conference schedule, the members wouldn't have enough games played against full FBS programs to qualify.

(04-30-2020 08:48 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(04-30-2020 08:24 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Here’s a crazy speculative thought: had other realignment pressures not occurred in the 2010-2014 period might we have seen an FBS CAA?

Full members ODU and GA St jumped to FBS. FB affiliate UMass jumped to FBS. Full member JMU is perhaps the most FBS ready program in FCS.

Nearby Charlotte, Georgia Southern, and App St all jumped to FBS.

Among the other full members, Towson, Delaware, and William & Mary would have had to access if it was conducive for them to move up with their conference mates or consider another home for football, possibly with the Patriot or letting America East take over FCS sponsorship.

Do you see any scenario where the CAA would have brought in UMass, Charlotte, App St, and Georgia Southern and tried to move up en masse together?

There's a reason (well, many, but here's one) why you don't see whole conferences move from FCS to FBS -- because of the conference schedule, the members wouldn't have enough games played against full FBS programs to qualify.

:

That is simply untrue now. An eight team FCS to FBS transition can happen without any FBS squad. If that was true, an ASUN with mostly CAA schools couldnt finish the transition within two years, neither could the Summit or the WAC.

Most of the FBS transitions have been when CUSA or Belt needed one or two teams so most think that that is the only way.

(04-30-2020 09:48 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(04-30-2020 08:48 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(04-30-2020 08:24 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Here’s a crazy speculative thought: had other realignment pressures not occurred in the 2010-2014 period might we have seen an FBS CAA?

Full members ODU and GA St jumped to FBS. FB affiliate UMass jumped to FBS. Full member JMU is perhaps the most FBS ready program in FCS.

Nearby Charlotte, Georgia Southern, and App St all jumped to FBS.

Among the other full members, Towson, Delaware, and William & Mary would have had to access if it was conducive for them to move up with their conference mates or consider another home for football, possibly with the Patriot or letting America East take over FCS sponsorship.

Do you see any scenario where the CAA would have brought in UMass, Charlotte, App St, and Georgia Southern and tried to move up en masse together?

There's a reason (well, many, but here's one) why you don't see whole conferences move from FCS to FBS -- because of the conference schedule, the members wouldn't have enough games played against full FBS programs to qualify.

:

That is simply untrue now. An eight team FCS to FBS transition can happen without any FBS squad. If that was true, an ASUN with mostly CAA schools couldnt finish the transition within two years, neither could the Summit or the WAC.

Most of the FBS transitions have been when CUSA or Belt needed one or two teams so most think that that is the only way.

Bolded: exactly. And your "WAC loophole" would be closed before you know it.

(04-30-2020 09:53 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(04-30-2020 09:48 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(04-30-2020 08:48 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(04-30-2020 08:24 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Here’s a crazy speculative thought: had other realignment pressures not occurred in the 2010-2014 period might we have seen an FBS CAA?

Full members ODU and GA St jumped to FBS. FB affiliate UMass jumped to FBS. Full member JMU is perhaps the most FBS ready program in FCS.

Nearby Charlotte, Georgia Southern, and App St all jumped to FBS.

Among the other full members, Towson, Delaware, and William & Mary would have had to access if it was conducive for them to move up with their conference mates or consider another home for football, possibly with the Patriot or letting America East take over FCS sponsorship.

Do you see any scenario where the CAA would have brought in UMass, Charlotte, App St, and Georgia Southern and tried to move up en masse together?

There's a reason (well, many, but here's one) why you don't see whole conferences move from FCS to FBS -- because of the conference schedule, the members wouldn't have enough games played against full FBS programs to qualify.

:

That is simply untrue now. An eight team FCS to FBS transition can happen without any FBS squad. If that was true, an ASUN with mostly CAA schools couldnt finish the transition within two years, neither could the Summit or the WAC.

Most of the FBS transitions have been when CUSA or Belt needed one or two teams so most think that that is the only way.

Bolded: exactly. And your "WAC loophole" would be closed before you know it.

An FbS invite is simply unneeded now thanks to Liberty. Those schools simply declare that they want FBS, and with eight FBS teams that worked together to be FBS simply declare themselves an FBS conference. A WAC loophole isn't needed as long as there is a Liberty loophole.

Behind ten years on the subject and posters like you are so apt to declare yourselves so superior in knowledge because they can't deal with logic but only the past.

(04-30-2020 10:10 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(04-30-2020 09:53 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(04-30-2020 09:48 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(04-30-2020 08:48 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(04-30-2020 08:24 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Here’s a crazy speculative thought: had other realignment pressures not occurred in the 2010-2014 period might we have seen an FBS CAA?

Full members ODU and GA St jumped to FBS. FB affiliate UMass jumped to FBS. Full member JMU is perhaps the most FBS ready program in FCS.

Nearby Charlotte, Georgia Southern, and App St all jumped to FBS.

Among the other full members, Towson, Delaware, and William & Mary would have had to access if it was conducive for them to move up with their conference mates or consider another home for football, possibly with the Patriot or letting America East take over FCS sponsorship.

Do you see any scenario where the CAA would have brought in UMass, Charlotte, App St, and Georgia Southern and tried to move up en masse together?

There's a reason (well, many, but here's one) why you don't see whole conferences move from FCS to FBS -- because of the conference schedule, the members wouldn't have enough games played against full FBS programs to qualify.

:

That is simply untrue now. An eight team FCS to FBS transition can happen without any FBS squad. If that was true, an ASUN with mostly CAA schools couldnt finish the transition within two years, neither could the Summit or the WAC.

Most of the FBS transitions have been when CUSA or Belt needed one or two teams so most think that that is the only way.

Bolded: exactly. And your "WAC loophole" would be closed before you know it.

An FbS invite is simply unneeded now thanks to Liberty. Those schools simply declare that they want FBS, and with eight FBS teams that worked together to be FBS simply declare themselves an FBS conference. A WAC loophole isn't needed as long as there is a Liberty loophole.

Behind ten years on the subject and posters like you are so apt to declare yourselves so superior in knowledge because they can't deal with logic but only the past.

Liberty has money out the wazoo, plenty to fund the kind of lawsuit needed to challenge the NCAA. That's how they got in. Not many other supposed FBS aspirants are so well-endowed.

(04-30-2020 10:52 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(04-30-2020 10:10 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(04-30-2020 09:53 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(04-30-2020 09:48 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(04-30-2020 08:48 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  There's a reason (well, many, but here's one) why you don't see whole conferences move from FCS to FBS -- because of the conference schedule, the members wouldn't have enough games played against full FBS programs to qualify.

:

That is simply untrue now. An eight team FCS to FBS transition can happen without any FBS squad. If that was true, an ASUN with mostly CAA schools couldnt finish the transition within two years, neither could the Summit or the WAC.

Most of the FBS transitions have been when CUSA or Belt needed one or two teams so most think that that is the only way.

Bolded: exactly. And your "WAC loophole" would be closed before you know it.

An FbS invite is simply unneeded now thanks to Liberty. Those schools simply declare that they want FBS, and with eight FBS teams that worked together to be FBS simply declare themselves an FBS conference. A WAC loophole isn't needed as long as there is a Liberty loophole.

Behind ten years on the subject and posters like you are so apt to declare yourselves so superior in knowledge because they can't deal with logic but only the past.

Liberty has money out the wazoo, plenty to fund the kind of lawsuit needed to challenge the NCAA. That's how they got in. Not many other supposed FBS aspirants are so well-endowed.

Stony Brook can outdo Liberty easily.

(04-30-2020 11:02 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(04-30-2020 10:52 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(04-30-2020 10:10 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(04-30-2020 09:53 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(04-30-2020 09:48 PM)NoDak Wrote:  :

That is simply untrue now. An eight team FCS to FBS transition can happen without any FBS squad. If that was true, an ASUN with mostly CAA schools couldnt finish the transition within two years, neither could the Summit or the WAC.

Most of the FBS transitions have been when CUSA or Belt needed one or two teams so most think that that is the only way.

Bolded: exactly. And your "WAC loophole" would be closed before you know it.

An FbS invite is simply unneeded now thanks to Liberty. Those schools simply declare that they want FBS, and with eight FBS teams that worked together to be FBS simply declare themselves an FBS conference. A WAC loophole isn't needed as long as there is a Liberty loophole.

Behind ten years on the subject and posters like you are so apt to declare yourselves so superior in knowledge because they can't deal with logic but only the past.

Liberty has money out the wazoo, plenty to fund the kind of lawsuit needed to challenge the NCAA. That's how they got in. Not many other supposed FBS aspirants are so well-endowed.

Stony Brook can outdo Liberty easily.

Even if so, one school does not a conference make. I would say you should give up on all these delusions you have, but it's too amusing to watch you flounder.

(04-30-2020 11:10 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(04-30-2020 11:02 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(04-30-2020 10:52 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(04-30-2020 10:10 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(04-30-2020 09:53 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Bolded: exactly. And your "WAC loophole" would be closed before you know it.

An FbS invite is simply unneeded now thanks to Liberty. Those schools simply declare that they want FBS, and with eight FBS teams that worked together to be FBS simply declare themselves an FBS conference. A WAC loophole isn't needed as long as there is a Liberty loophole.

Behind ten years on the subject and posters like you are so apt to declare yourselves so superior in knowledge because they can't deal with logic but only the past.

Liberty has money out the wazoo, plenty to fund the kind of lawsuit needed to challenge the NCAA. That's how they got in. Not many other supposed FBS aspirants are so well-endowed.

Stony Brook can outdo Liberty easily.

Even if so, one school does not a conference make. I would say you should give up on all these delusions you have, but it's too amusing to watch you flounder.

Talk about floundering. The. NCaA doesn't even have case now because it didn't challenge Liberty.

(04-30-2020 08:24 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Here’s a crazy speculative thought: had other realignment pressures not occurred in the 2010-2014 period might we have seen an FBS CAA?

Full members ODU and GA St jumped to FBS. FB affiliate UMass jumped to FBS. Full member JMU is perhaps the most FBS ready program in FCS.

Nearby Charlotte, Georgia Southern, and App St all jumped to FBS.

Among the other full members, Towson, Delaware, and William & Mary would have had to access if it was conducive for them to move up with their conference mates or consider another home for football, possibly with the Patriot or letting America East take over FCS sponsorship.

Do you see any scenario where the CAA would have brought in UMass, Charlotte, App St, and Georgia Southern and tried to move up en masse together?

When it comes down to it, how feasible is FBS for Delaware, Towson, and Stony at the same time if they are all up there with Temple, Rutgers, Syracuse, UMD, PSU, Army, and Navy?

I could see all three in the MAC, but on their own? Or you get some CUSA, Sun Belt, and indy peel-off’s into a new conference? Remember the Big East and how it kept needing to stretch its borders to fetch recruits?

(04-30-2020 09:53 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(04-30-2020 09:48 PM)NoDak Wrote:  That is simply untrue now. An eight team FCS to FBS transition can happen without any FBS squad. If that was true, an ASUN with mostly CAA schools couldnt finish the transition within two years, neither could the Summit or the WAC. ...

Bolded: exactly. And your "WAC loophole" would be closed before you know it.

Further, taking the CLAIM that it can happen as the evidence that the rule does not exist, and then using that "evidence" to conclude it can happen ... that would appear to be the logical fallacy known as "begging the question", smuggling the conclusion into the assumptions.

According to the letter of the bylaw, there is indeed a WAC loophole. This is a result of the reference to a former FBS conference being able to invite a school for FBS membership and the continuity provisions being switched from schools playing together into the conference having continuously sponsored a compliant schedule of sports.

Also, according to the latter of bylaw, the reclassification follows successful completion of the transition period, and the FBS schedule requirements must be met in the second year of the transition.

So a block of reclassifying schools that play each other in year two of their transition don't help each other satisfy the FBS scheduling requirements ... as required to advance out of the second year and actually reclassify. So they are still reclassifying the following year, and the following year do not help each other satisfy the scheduling requirement ... and so on.

(05-01-2020 08:57 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(04-30-2020 09:53 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(04-30-2020 09:48 PM)NoDak Wrote:  That is simply untrue now. An eight team FCS to FBS transition can happen without any FBS squad. If that was true, an ASUN with mostly CAA schools couldnt finish the transition within two years, neither could the Summit or the WAC. ...

Bolded: exactly. And your "WAC loophole" would be closed before you know it.

Further, taking the CLAIM that it can happen as the evidence that the rule does not exist, and then using that "evidence" to conclude it can happen ... that would appear to be the logical fallacy known as "begging the question", smuggling the conclusion into the assumptions.

According to the letter of the bylaw, there is indeed a WAC loophole. This is a result of the reference to a former FBS conference being able to invite a school for FBS membership and the continuity provisions being switched from schools playing together into the conference having continuously sponsored a compliant schedule of sports.

Also, according to the latter of bylaw, the reclassification follows successful completion of the transition period, and the FBS schedule requirements must be met in the second year of the transition.

So a block of reclassifying schools that play each other in year two of their transition don't help each other satisfy the FBS scheduling requirements ... as required to advance out of the second year and actually reclassify. So they are still reclassifying the following year, and the following year do not help each other satisfy the scheduling requirement ... and so on.

A new FBS conference only can work if almost all are FCS teams moveups transition. Years ago used the WAC rule, 20 schools wanting up, and their transitions would be finished in two years and the WAC splits. but along came Liberty and all that was throw out because a split became unnecessary.

The WAC will gain UCDavis,.Cal Poly. Sac St, Sam Houston St, McNeese, Lamar, UTRGV,,Wichita St, Incarnate Word , Missouri St and proceed to transition.

The Summit will get nine FCS teams and do it. The group of "nothing changes in FBS" has never had its facts right so they invent their own. The sequence is too complicated for that groups noggins. All schools want a short transition , and they waited until that was possible.

I think we'll see 3 levels of Division I football before we see a whole conference shift from FCS to FBS.

Nodak why havent all these schools moved up yet?

(05-01-2020 09:34 AM)NoDak Wrote:  A new FBS conference only can work if almost all are FCS teams moveups transition. Years ago used the WAC rule, 20 schools wanting up, and their transitions would be finished in two years and the WAC splits. but along came Liberty and all that was throw out because a split became unnecessary.

So the evidence is it would have happened but it didn't.

Quote: All schools want a short transition , and they waited until that was possible.

So this is the theory ... the fact that the WAC loophole exists ... which can only be used by one conference ... but has not been used is taken as evidence that a bunch of FCS schools moving up together complies with the rules because ...

... because why? Because the "only explanation" for why they didn't moved up in a staged sequence was BECAUSE they wanted a short transition and so therefore a short transition MUST comply with the rules?

That is a false dichotomy logical fallacy ... the conclusion only follows from excluding the missing middle, which is that nothing along these lines is being worked on.

A set of FCS teams all transitioning together need to all independently get four FBS home games and one home game from an FCS counter in their second transition year. That is a black letter reading of the relevant by-law:

Quote: 20.4.2.1.4.2 Second Year. During the second year of reclassification, an institution shall satisfy the following requirements: (Adopted: 1/14/08 effective 8/1/08, Revised: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11, 8/7/14, 10/4/17)
[a] Full compliance with all Football Bowl Subdivision legislation and membership requirements;
[b] Submit an annual report and updated strategic plan confirming compliance with all Football Bowl Subdivision legislation and membership requirements; and
[c] Report all violations as part of the required annual report.

Come up with a process that satisfies the by-laws, or you are just blowing smoke.

(05-01-2020 09:36 AM)BePcr07 Wrote:  I think we'll see 3 levels of Division I football before we see a whole conference shift from FCS to FBS.

Even if there were some magical loophole that would let 8-12 teams jump from FCS to FBS, instead of sharing their split of the pie with these newcomers isn't it more likely that the existing FBS teams would take their ball and go home?

The P5 isn't giving more dollar share to the G5, because the P5 doesn't really need the G5 to generate money. The big money is made by the conference networks and playoff, which is making plenty of money without a G5 entrant.

The G5 isn't going to want to become the G6 and divide a smaller share of the pie one more way. Why should Marshall or UTEP or San Diego State take a haircut just so that some Johnny-Come-Lately conference can be FBS? They don't make more money off of it.

I think, if some band of FCS schools said "pursuant to Rule Whatever, we are now FBS, pay us and play us" you would see a separation of FBS schools from the NCAA.

(05-01-2020 10:17 AM)ccd494 Wrote:  

(05-01-2020 09:36 AM)BePcr07 Wrote:  I think we'll see 3 levels of Division I football before we see a whole conference shift from FCS to FBS.

Even if there were some magical loophole that would let 8-12 teams jump from FCS to FBS, instead of sharing their split of the pie with these newcomers isn't it more likely that the existing FBS teams would take their ball and go home?

The P5 isn't giving more dollar share to the G5, because the P5 doesn't really need the G5 to generate money. The big money is made by the conference networks and playoff, which is making plenty of money without a G5 entrant.


The G5 isn't going to want to become the G6 and divide a smaller share of the pie one more way. Why should Marshall or UTEP or San Diego State take a haircut just so that some Johnny-Come-Lately conference can be FBS? They don't make more money off of it.

I think, if some band of FCS schools said "pursuant to Rule Whatever, we are now FBS, pay us and play us" you would see a separation of FBS schools from the NCAA.

Regarding the money thing, I think some people like NoDak and DavidSt think that these move ups are going to be homerun Boise St types and will generate significant interest and money

I’d want to go back and just ask why these schools would jump up? Richmond, URI, Villanova, Elon, UNH, and Maine for sure wouldn’t.

Some of these programs had their runs because they played the transfer game very well. Delaware used to do this as well as anyone back in the day. Guys who weren’t seeing play at nearby FBS schools went to UD and got right onto the field.

Now with the changing transfer and eligibility rules, it does pose some questions whether maybe schools should explore moving up, but, again, look where they are on a map.

(04-30-2020 11:02 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(04-30-2020 10:52 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(04-30-2020 10:10 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(04-30-2020 09:53 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(04-30-2020 09:48 PM)NoDak Wrote:  :

That is simply untrue now. An eight team FCS to FBS transition can happen without any FBS squad. If that was true, an ASUN with mostly CAA schools couldnt finish the transition within two years, neither could the Summit or the WAC.

Most of the FBS transitions have been when CUSA or Belt needed one or two teams so most think that that is the only way.

Bolded: exactly. And your "WAC loophole" would be closed before you know it.

An FbS invite is simply unneeded now thanks to Liberty. Those schools simply declare that they want FBS, and with eight FBS teams that worked together to be FBS simply declare themselves an FBS conference. A WAC loophole isn't needed as long as there is a Liberty loophole.

Behind ten years on the subject and posters like you are so apt to declare yourselves so superior in knowledge because they can't deal with logic but only the past.

Liberty has money out the wazoo, plenty to fund the kind of lawsuit needed to challenge the NCAA. That's how they got in. Not many other supposed FBS aspirants are so well-endowed.

Stony Brook can outdo Liberty easily.

Uh, time out.

Stony Brook is a public school with an endowment of ~340 million.

Liberty is a private school with an endowment of 1.5 billion.

Liberty is private so the exact numbers are hard, but it looks like they spent 45 million on athletics in 2015/16, before they went FBS (https://www.pilotonline.com/sports/colle...474.html), so that number is certainly higher today. Stony Brook spent 32 million last year (https://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances/).