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(04-09-2020 05:21 PM)Cataclysmo Wrote:  

(04-09-2020 05:10 PM)doss2 Wrote:  Talking to my medical friends (some in NYC), they say 90% of the deaths could just as readily be assigned to being obese, diabetes, COPD from smoking.

The lesson is:

1. Exercise
2. Eat properly
3. Do not smoke or vape

This is blatantly false. Preexisting conditions are exacerbated by contraction of coronavirus. That does not, in any way, mean that those conditions would have killed patients anyways.

I mean, think about this for a second, do you really think daily mortality rates have spiked in the past month because everyone suddenly became obese, contracted diabetes, started smoking? No. They died because of the virus.

And, fwiw, you can bet that the way the Chinese are manipulating their numbers by neglecting to count every patient who had a condition besides Coronavirus.

This is another rediculous right-wing talking point straight from the networks that have absolutely feasted on them in recent weeks. It's pathetic.

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I agree that this is blatantly false. People rarely die from "obesity" or "smoking." Smoking doesn't kill; lung cancer kills.

Most people who smoke live long, healthy lives. Most people with lung cancer do not.

But I don't think it's a "right-wing talking point." I pay pretty close attention to right-wing media and I haven't seen this point of view coming from them. I HAVE seen right wing media say that US deaths are higher than other countries because Americans are more susceptible to the disease because we are fatter, and therefore the death rate here shouldn't be blamed on a lack of response. But that's a lot different than what Doss said.

(04-09-2020 06:04 PM)QSECOFR Wrote:  

(04-09-2020 05:21 PM)Cataclysmo Wrote:  

(04-09-2020 05:10 PM)doss2 Wrote:  Talking to my medical friends (some in NYC), they say 90% of the deaths could just as readily be assigned to being obese, diabetes, COPD from smoking.

The lesson is:

1. Exercise
2. Eat properly
3. Do not smoke or vape

This is blatantly false. Preexisting conditions are exacerbated by contraction of coronavirus. That does not, in any way, mean that those conditions would have killed patients anyways.

I mean, think about this for a second, do you really think daily mortality rates have spiked in the past month because everyone suddenly became obese, contracted diabetes, started smoking? No. They died because of the virus.

And, fwiw, you can bet that the way the Chinese are manipulating their numbers by neglecting to count every patient who had a condition besides Coronavirus.

This is another rediculous right-wing talking point straight from the networks that have absolutely feasted on them in recent weeks. It's pathetic.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

You are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts. Over the last 6 weeks we have seen the lowest rate of death attributed to pneumonia since record keeping began. Comorbidity deaths are counted as Covid19 and not counted as stemming from any other cause.

So what exactly explains the thousands of increased deaths per day?

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So I smoke 3 packs a day and get lung cancer. I guess it was cancer not smoking.

I drink too much and die from liver disease. The disease killed me or excess drink.

So I smoke 3 packs a day and get lung cancer. I guess it was cancer not smoking.

I drink too much and die from liver disease. The disease killed me or excess drink.

(04-09-2020 06:09 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  But I don't think it's a "right-wing talking point." I pay pretty close attention to right-wing media and I haven't seen this point of view coming from them. I HAVE seen right wing media say that US deaths are higher than other countries because Americans are more susceptible to the disease because we are fatter, and therefore the death rate here shouldn't be blamed on a lack of response. But that's a lot different than what Doss said.

I did a quick search on twitter. Here are some of the usual suspects of Right Wing media repeating this talking point.

(04-09-2020 07:35 PM)Cataclysmo Wrote:  

(04-09-2020 06:09 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  But I don't think it's a "right-wing talking point." I pay pretty close attention to right-wing media and I haven't seen this point of view coming from them. I HAVE seen right wing media say that US deaths are higher than other countries because Americans are more susceptible to the disease because we are fatter, and therefore the death rate here shouldn't be blamed on a lack of response. But that's a lot different than what Doss said.

I did a quick search on twitter. Here are some of the usual suspects of Right Wing media repeating this talking point.

Did somebody mention cancer?

(04-09-2020 07:10 PM)Cataclysmo Wrote:  

(04-09-2020 06:04 PM)QSECOFR Wrote:  

(04-09-2020 05:21 PM)Cataclysmo Wrote:  

(04-09-2020 05:10 PM)doss2 Wrote:  Talking to my medical friends (some in NYC), they say 90% of the deaths could just as readily be assigned to being obese, diabetes, COPD from smoking.

The lesson is:

1. Exercise
2. Eat properly
3. Do not smoke or vape

This is blatantly false. Preexisting conditions are exacerbated by contraction of coronavirus. That does not, in any way, mean that those conditions would have killed patients anyways.

I mean, think about this for a second, do you really think daily mortality rates have spiked in the past month because everyone suddenly became obese, contracted diabetes, started smoking? No. They died because of the virus.

And, fwiw, you can bet that the way the Chinese are manipulating their numbers by neglecting to count every patient who had a condition besides Coronavirus.

This is another rediculous right-wing talking point straight from the networks that have absolutely feasted on them in recent weeks. It's pathetic.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

You are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts. Over the last 6 weeks we have seen the lowest rate of death attributed to pneumonia since record keeping began. Comorbidity deaths are counted as Covid19 and not counted as stemming from any other cause.

So what exactly explains the thousands of increased deaths per day?

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

Lenten fish frys.

I didn't read all of this, but I read enough. I didn't see anyone talk about what is the end game of the stay at home order. When are allowed back out? Mathematically, we'll all still get the virus, assuming their models are true. They didn't save lives. They delayed deaths. Unless, they come up with a vaccine or treatment. The vaccine is unlikely. Treatment is possible.

I'll also add, that it bought us time, which is very valuable. I'd like to know that there is a plan. The longer it goes on the bigger the scar. The cases will never go to 0. This exists in the world now. It won't disappear. Lives are important. Unfortunately, casualties are part of life. At some point, the government implodes if too many people are on unemployment. I don't know what the right answer is, but I'd be interested in brainstorming what is to come, instead of what is already done.

(04-10-2020 08:35 AM)Z-Fly Wrote:  I didn't read all of this, but I read enough. I didn't see anyone talk about what is the end game of the stay at home order. When are allowed back out? Mathematically, we'll all still get the virus, assuming their models are true. They didn't save lives. They delayed deaths. Unless, they come up with a vaccine or treatment. The vaccine is unlikely. Treatment is possible.

I'll also add, that it bought us time, which is very valuable. I'd like to know that there is a plan. The longer it goes on the bigger the scar. The cases will never go to 0. This exists in the world now. It won't disappear. Lives are important. Unfortunately, casualties are part of life. At some point, the government implodes if too many people are on unemployment. I don't know what the right answer is, but I'd be interested in brainstorming what is to come, instead of what is already done.

You're gonna exhaust yourself looking for specific dates. There are too many moving parts.

But, things are looking better today than a few weeks ago. Ohio's models are vastly improved and it appears many of the hardest hit regions will soon reach their peaks in mortality.

But you have to be cautious for a few reasons. #1 The peak in mortality still means that more people will die than we've seen in the past few months. #2 It's not clear how long we will linger around that peak. #3 The descent of the curve means people will still be dying. We're at 16K dead right now. That number is going to get far worse, even if the trends get better.

My guess is that as things stabilize in the next two weeks you'll start to see economic task forces assembled. In fact, I believe Trump said as much in his press conference yesterday.

What that means as far as getting back to work is anyone's guess. Obviously it would have to occur slowly, and we're still probably months away from attending large gatherings.

(04-10-2020 08:35 AM)Z-Fly Wrote:  Mathematically, we'll all still get the virus, assuming their models are true. They didn't save lives. They delayed deaths. Unless, they come up with a vaccine or treatment. The vaccine is unlikely. Treatment is possible.

I wouldn't say this is exactly correct. The reason lockdowns were necessary were to prevent overwhelming the health care system. Aside from New York City it looks like that will have achieved it's objective. Making sure that health care resources are available when people become ill has saved lives.

Vaccines will come likely next winter but we need to have the economy going long before then. We're learning more about treatments every day. By the time this starts re surging in the fall we should have much better information on treatments.

It's my belief that aside from large gathering spots like theaters, arena/stadiums, church services, etc things should open in May encouraging the same precautions we're encouraged to use at essential businesses now. This is assuming that the models don't change negatively as the information for April develops.

Come May, I agree. If we continue on this trajectory. We need to open it up. It’s wise to limit mass gatherings and access to hospitals/nursing homes for awhile longer. Everyone needs to wear a mask in public and wash their hands. Better sanitation practices on frequent touch points. I am beginning to doubt if I will see another bottle of Purell in my lifetime, but that would be good as well. Isolate and trace any new cases. This is the way.

As things show sustained improvement, we relax restrictions. If things get worse, we step it back. Needs to be a watch dog on this for awhile.

I think the caveat is getting people to follow the guidelines. Say what you will about social distancing causing the infection mitigation- I see plenty of people not doing it correctly when I go to the grocery or drive around town. People typically don’t do anything they don’t want unless you force them or scare the hell out of them.

(04-09-2020 06:09 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(04-09-2020 05:21 PM)Cataclysmo Wrote:  

(04-09-2020 05:10 PM)doss2 Wrote:  Talking to my medical friends (some in NYC), they say 90% of the deaths could just as readily be assigned to being obese, diabetes, COPD from smoking.

The lesson is:

1. Exercise
2. Eat properly
3. Do not smoke or vape

This is blatantly false. Preexisting conditions are exacerbated by contraction of coronavirus. That does not, in any way, mean that those conditions would have killed patients anyways.

I mean, think about this for a second, do you really think daily mortality rates have spiked in the past month because everyone suddenly became obese, contracted diabetes, started smoking? No. They died because of the virus.

And, fwiw, you can bet that the way the Chinese are manipulating their numbers by neglecting to count every patient who had a condition besides Coronavirus.

This is another rediculous right-wing talking point straight from the networks that have absolutely feasted on them in recent weeks. It's pathetic.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

I agree that this is blatantly false. People rarely die from "obesity" or "smoking." Smoking doesn't kill; lung cancer kills.

Most people who smoke live long, healthy lives. Most people with lung cancer do not.

But I don't think it's a "right-wing talking point." I pay pretty close attention to right-wing media and I haven't seen this point of view coming from them. I HAVE seen right wing media say that US deaths are higher than other countries because Americans are more susceptible to the disease because we are fatter, and therefore the death rate here shouldn't be blamed on a lack of response. But that's a lot different than what Doss said.

If you look at the mortality data normalized by population we are doing better than many major European countries like the UK Spain France Switzerland Italy Belgium Sweden.