(10-30-2019 12:28 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  or RUOwls's West Coast Air Coryell offense.

Funny you mention that. Here's a quote which shows he has no idea what he's doing.

"We're going some things this week to simplify the offense so we can play a little bit faster and not let anything be limited by age or experience in the system right now. I believe in the West Coast offense. I believe that pounding the rock is the way we'll win championships here. Right now, I'm not sure if that's exactly our best way; just to go with someone that can get us to the right play because we're not executing at a high enough level. Right now, we're going to kick everything around."

" Right now, we're going to kick everything around."

This seems to be the part of the offense we have mastered.

(10-31-2019 08:35 AM)westsidewolf1989 Wrote:  

(10-30-2019 12:28 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  or RUOwls's West Coast Air Coryell offense.

Funny you mention that. Here's a quote which shows he has no idea what he's doing.
"We're going some things this week to simplify the offense so we can play a little bit faster and not let anything be limited by age or experience in the system right now. I believe in the West Coast offense. I believe that pounding the rock is the way we'll win championships here. Right now, I'm not sure if that's exactly our best way; just to go with someone that can get us to the right play because we're not executing at a high enough level. Right now, we're going to kick everything around."

This ain't the West Coast offense. It's just not. Interesting comment about simplifying the offense so we can play faster. The Air Coryell version of the West Coast offense that RUOwls likes is actually quite a bit simpler, at least on the play-calling end.

(10-31-2019 02:38 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(10-31-2019 08:35 AM)westsidewolf1989 Wrote:  

(10-30-2019 12:28 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  or RUOwls's West Coast Air Coryell offense.

Funny you mention that. Here's a quote which shows he has no idea what he's doing.
"We're going some things this week to simplify the offense so we can play a little bit faster and not let anything be limited by age or experience in the system right now. I believe in the West Coast offense. I believe that pounding the rock is the way we'll win championships here. Right now, I'm not sure if that's exactly our best way; just to go with someone that can get us to the right play because we're not executing at a high enough level. Right now, we're going to kick everything around."

This ain't the West Coast offense. It's just not. Interesting comment about simplifying the offense so we can play faster. The Air Coryell version of the West Coast offense that RUOwls likes is actually quite a bit simpler, at least on the play-calling end.

When it doesn’t work the message is get back to the basics. OK do that, but do it with personnel with experience! it will work at the beginning but this could get real ugly after the first quarter.

(10-31-2019 02:38 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(10-31-2019 08:35 AM)westsidewolf1989 Wrote:  

(10-30-2019 12:28 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  or RUOwls's West Coast Air Coryell offense.

Funny you mention that. Here's a quote which shows he has no idea what he's doing.
"We're going some things this week to simplify the offense so we can play a little bit faster and not let anything be limited by age or experience in the system right now. I believe in the West Coast offense. I believe that pounding the rock is the way we'll win championships here. Right now, I'm not sure if that's exactly our best way; just to go with someone that can get us to the right play because we're not executing at a high enough level. Right now, we're going to kick everything around."

This ain't the West Coast offense. It's just not. Interesting comment about simplifying the offense so we can play faster. The Air Coryell version of the West Coast offense that RUOwls likes is actually quite a bit simpler, at least on the play-calling end.

I agree with much of what you say. In my opinion, designing an offense is about understanding the attack and the roles of each player within each play. It isn't necessarily a type of offense. I honestly hate when coaches say they are going to simplify the offense. How do you simplify knowing how to attack? My son's coaches put in a new play this week. His team is 9-0. He has thrown 15 TDs and 3 INTs and is completing about 60% of his passes. The play they put in was a very poorly deigned play. A roll out to the left with a 2receiver slot to the left. Slot receiver runs a post-corner and outside receiver runs a comeback. They don't understand that if you roll the QB to that side you compress the field to one half. And you put a post-corner on a comeback you are putting the 2 receivers under the deep corner in the same spot and the FS will vice the deep coverage and the SS in the flat has no one and can sink into the comeback and all the routes can be covered because of the design and lack of vertical and horizontal stretch in a 3 deep zone. There was no passing lane and my son got it to the post-corner but it was batted away. The QB coach asked him why it was incomplete. Coach said it was because my son threw it late over the middle. Of course, my son learned a lesson in telling a coach that it wasn't even over the middle nor late. The coach went off on a rant on him. I tell this story because just coming up with plays doesn't always mean success if they are designed poorly or don't force the defense into a bind. Drawing up a play expecting a defense to fail just because is not a good offense or a good passing game. You have to understand how a defense works and how all 5 receiver can create a point of weakness by co-ordinating how they influence the defense. Air Coryell was a system to use a TE and receivers and backs to attack the defense vertically and be able to threaten the entire field. It incorporated a power running game once you got the defense to adjust their front to cover the pass. This is the built in aspect of the Air Raid or Run & Shoot or your Hawaii combo offense you like or the spread. It forces the defense to cover the field and be exploited somewhere.
Simplifying an offense just is a way to eliminate reads and adjustments to try and leverage a defense. It is foolish to try and be in the right play because of the after-snap variables. In pass coverage, if you base your actions off a type of coverage, you will lose. What if you get combo or hybrid man/zone coverages on different sides? How do you read it and what do you check into that is favorable? With a play that will stress a defense in an area, that read becomes a moot point because I don't care what you want to label it. The dynamics won't change and you read the dynamics of which defender is responsible for the area you are attacking and the attackers all adjust to the movements of that defender to open it up for multiple receivers. And QB reads this and hits the receiver coming open. It maintains all 5 receivers as a passing option on each play and makes it much harder for s defense to defend.
When you have a ridged system and philosophy you follow, this becomes the driver. But in reality, you should teach the players the dynamics of the game and trust them to implement their knowledge. That is what I think. And I don't see it happening. And it doesn't have to be about getting in the right play based on a flawed interpretation of what a defense is doing.

How was a post-corner in the middle and late?

(10-31-2019 07:06 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  How was a post-corner in the middle and late?

exactly

I guess in the coaches mind, since the QB rolled out and the post-corner was now straight down field from the QB they reset the middle to be over the QB. And rolling the QB will make the throw later. It was an absolutely poor play. Technically, it is a crappy sideline flood route. Post-corner is basically a double move man route. Wasted movement against a zone that favors the defense. This is kind of my point. Some college coaches just have a fancier way of packaging garbage. They do things without fully realizing what is actually going on.

(10-31-2019 05:20 PM)ruowls Wrote:  Air Coryell was a system to use a TE and receivers and backs to attack the defense vertically and be able to threaten the entire field. It incorporated a power running game once you got the defense to adjust their front to cover the pass. This is the built in aspect of the Air Raid or Run & Shoot or your Hawaii combo offense you like or the spread.

But here's one big problem. We don't have a passing game that can force the defense to adjust their coverage. So the run game doesn't work. And they can stop whatever passing we can do from their base defense, with no need to adjust. Our passing scheme looks like it was drawn up by someone whose total philosophy is "pound the rock."

As you note, Air Raid or Run-and-Shoot or Hawaii offense basically have a few plays that you learn to run to perfection, and then to make adjustments to counter what the defense does. But you must have a lot of understanding to run it properly. You can't just line up and run plays.

(10-31-2019 08:18 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(10-31-2019 05:20 PM)ruowls Wrote:  Air Coryell was a system to use a TE and receivers and backs to attack the defense vertically and be able to threaten the entire field. It incorporated a power running game once you got the defense to adjust their front to cover the pass. This is the built in aspect of the Air Raid or Run & Shoot or your Hawaii combo offense you like or the spread.

But here's one big problem. We don't have a passing game that can force the defense to adjust their coverage. So the run game doesn't work. And they can stop whatever passing we can do from their base defense, with no need to adjust. Our passing scheme looks like it was drawn up by someone whose total philosophy is "pound the rock."

As you note, Air Raid or Run-and-Shoot or Hawaii offense basically have a few plays that you learn to run to perfection, and then to make adjustments to counter what the defense does. But you must have a lot of understanding to run it properly. You can't just line up and run plays.

Sure you can.
We see exactly that, every game.
This is the "surprises are rare" offense.