(08-22-2019 01:27 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  

(08-22-2019 10:52 AM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  

(08-20-2019 06:56 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  How many wins in the NCAA for the WAC representatives lately?? How many at-large bids??

Yeah.....

Are we comparing WAC basketball vs the Big West? This is the basketball Conference RPI by comparison over the past three seasons:

2019 - WAC #16 Big West #25
2018 - WAC #15 Big West #22
2017 - WAC #17 Big West #29

The Big West is a one bid conference, like the WAC, Summit, Horizon and even the MVC. Cal Poly won an NCAA tournament game in 2014 as a #16 seed (the play-in game). UC Davis won their play-in game as a #16 seed in 2017. Over the past six seasons, the Big West has never been seeded higher than #13. So you guys deserve credit for the wins, but it is not a sign of conference strength.

Jdgaucho, you have been campaigning for NMSU or GCU or Seattle in the Big West for years. I don't blame you, although instead of getting those schools, you ended up with Cal State Bakersfield, a very unpopular addition among Big West fans. In 2013, the Big West had a shot at Denver, but the travel subsidy did not work for Denver:

https://milehighmids.tumblr.com/post/425...-denver-ad

Most notably, Bradley-Doppes stated emphatically, in apparent reference to demands made by an unspecified conference during earlier membership negotiations, “I’ll be darned if I’m going to be embarrassed because we might force them not to be a ‘bus league.’” She did not name the league in question, but speculatively, that sounds like a veiled reference to the Big West Conference–known in Mid-Majority circles as the “California Bus League”–demanding a travel costs concession as a condition of membership at some point recently.

The strength of the Big West is their stability. Unlike conferences like the WAC and Summit, the schools are happy in the conference. It is a one bid bus league that works for the member schools. The schools that leave the one bid WAC and one bid Summit are looking for what the one bid Big West has. Bus trips and regional travel.

That stronger RPI resulted in one bid, one and done for the WAC every single year. New Mexico State has monopolized the bid and done nothing. Cal State Bakersfield earned a bid in 2016 and that's been it for the rest of the conference.

Another RPI counter Stu. Eight different BW teams went to the NCAA Tournament this decade. Everyone except for UC Riverside has gone since 2009. Four wins in the NCAAs this decade, by four different teams, compared to zero for the WAC. At some point, that offsets the RPI or NET.

UC Irvine also kept their coach despite a 30+ win season and a NCAA Tournament win. Nobody wanted Russell Turner? Find that hard to believe.

As to Peg Bradley-Doppes, you left out something else. She was quoted that Denver was also asked to add sports. Puck said the MVC asked for baseball and track. At last check, California schools in the WCC ride buses for league games too.

Again, I don't think Denver balked at travel subsidies. It was travel subsidies AND adding sports for the Big West and Missouri Valley.

UCI is the closest thing to an NMSU type of basketball program in the BW and they have been to the NCAA tournament twice in their history. In 2013-2014, UCI was eliminated in the conference post-season tournament by Cal Poly, who got into the NCAA tournament with a 13-19 record. A 13-19 team representing the conference in the NCAA tournament is not a sign of a good conference.

RPI is directly related to the seeding in the NCAA tournament:
2014 Cal Poly #16 (first NCAA appearance)
2015 UCI #13 (first NCAA appearance)
2016 Hawaii #13 (first appearance in 14 years)
2017 UC Davis #16 (first NCAA appearance)
2018 CSUF - #15 (third NCAA appearance in 44 years)
2019 UCI #13

The seeding is a reflection of the RPI, regular season record, strength of schedule. The Big West is a one bid conference with a conference RPI that is usually in the 20's. Having different teams go every year does not offset RPI. It just means the conference has no dominant team and basically a bunch of mediocre basketball schools.

Denver never get a conference offer for entrance from either the MVC or Big West. In the MVC, the final four came down to UMKC, UIC, Valpo and Loyola of Chicago. The MVC leadership made visits to all four schools. Denver did not make the cut. They only had three men's sports that the MVC participates in (basketball, golf, soccer). I think they had a phone conversation and realized it was not going to work. I think the MVC was always leaning to the Chicago area to replace Creighton.

The Big West did not need Denver in 2013. Whatever the BW was going to ask for, it was not going to be cheap and it was going to be more than they would have demanded from a California school. Just because two conferences have a conversation, does not mean it is going to happen.

In the WCC, LMU and Pepperdine fly to Spokane, Provo, Portland, Stockton and the Bay Area. The big trip in the BW is to Hawaii and that is subsidized by Hawaii.

WCC coaches are looking at Grand Canyon U. Denver would be smart to tag onto GCU and offered WCC as a pair because you get 2 large media markets with two privates.

(08-22-2019 04:11 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  WCC coaches are looking at Grand Canyon U. Denver would be smart to tag onto GCU and offered WCC as a pair because you get 2 large media markets with two privates.

Both Denver and the WCC membership likely detests GCUs University funding model, which is moving from outright for-profit to 'non-profit' by using a shell corporation scheme that still funds the school through its 70,000 student online diploma mill.

From Forbes Magazine in 2017:
"According to a corporate filing, the newly-minted nonprofit will pay out 60% of tuition and fees to its not-so-distant owner...“No other university in the country has its CEO working for its contractor and for itself,” Robert Shireman, a former member of the Obama administration’s Department of Education and part of the progressive Century Foundation think tank, told The Phoenix New Times. He added: “The wolves are putting on sheep’s clothing, and hoping that the rest of us will not notice.”

I believe the WCC is much more interested in 'institutional fit' versus new markets, and given GCU's very controversial fundraising model, I don't see them ever moving to that league, no matter how good the sports programs become.

And to answer some other questions, DU is very happy in the Big East for lacrosse. It's a great conference for DU brand alignment -- Denver's East Coast visibility and for attracting upscale prospective students from the East. If DU basketball were to ever get good enough to merit a full conference invite from the Big East, DU would jump at it - after all, if Creighton can do the Big East, Denver could do it too. DU's sports menu would be instantly competitive in the Big East today, except for basketball.

Finally, would DU do water polo or men's volleyball? If the WCC asked DU to add those sports for admission, I am sure DU would likely consider it. Water polo would probably be the easiest to add, especially for women. DU is 57% female at the undergrad level. Beach Volleyball would be an even easier add, if it was needed, due to smaller rosters. Men's Volleyball would be tougher, due to title IX. DU would find these sport all very hard to recruit in, given our location in the Rockies, but I'm sure DU could find some West Coast athletes if DU were accepted in the WCC.

(08-22-2019 03:35 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  

(08-22-2019 01:27 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  

(08-22-2019 10:52 AM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  

(08-20-2019 06:56 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  How many wins in the NCAA for the WAC representatives lately?? How many at-large bids??

Yeah.....

Are we comparing WAC basketball vs the Big West? This is the basketball Conference RPI by comparison over the past three seasons:

2019 - WAC #16 Big West #25
2018 - WAC #15 Big West #22
2017 - WAC #17 Big West #29

The Big West is a one bid conference, like the WAC, Summit, Horizon and even the MVC. Cal Poly won an NCAA tournament game in 2014 as a #16 seed (the play-in game). UC Davis won their play-in game as a #16 seed in 2017. Over the past six seasons, the Big West has never been seeded higher than #13. So you guys deserve credit for the wins, but it is not a sign of conference strength.

Jdgaucho, you have been campaigning for NMSU or GCU or Seattle in the Big West for years. I don't blame you, although instead of getting those schools, you ended up with Cal State Bakersfield, a very unpopular addition among Big West fans. In 2013, the Big West had a shot at Denver, but the travel subsidy did not work for Denver:

https://milehighmids.tumblr.com/post/425...-denver-ad

Most notably, Bradley-Doppes stated emphatically, in apparent reference to demands made by an unspecified conference during earlier membership negotiations, “I’ll be darned if I’m going to be embarrassed because we might force them not to be a ‘bus league.’” She did not name the league in question, but speculatively, that sounds like a veiled reference to the Big West Conference–known in Mid-Majority circles as the “California Bus League”–demanding a travel costs concession as a condition of membership at some point recently.

The strength of the Big West is their stability. Unlike conferences like the WAC and Summit, the schools are happy in the conference. It is a one bid bus league that works for the member schools. The schools that leave the one bid WAC and one bid Summit are looking for what the one bid Big West has. Bus trips and regional travel.

That stronger RPI resulted in one bid, one and done for the WAC every single year. New Mexico State has monopolized the bid and done nothing. Cal State Bakersfield earned a bid in 2016 and that's been it for the rest of the conference.

Another RPI counter Stu. Eight different BW teams went to the NCAA Tournament this decade. Everyone except for UC Riverside has gone since 2009. Four wins in the NCAAs this decade, by four different teams, compared to zero for the WAC. At some point, that offsets the RPI or NET.

UC Irvine also kept their coach despite a 30+ win season and a NCAA Tournament win. Nobody wanted Russell Turner? Find that hard to believe.

As to Peg Bradley-Doppes, you left out something else. She was quoted that Denver was also asked to add sports. Puck said the MVC asked for baseball and track. At last check, California schools in the WCC ride buses for league games too.

Again, I don't think Denver balked at travel subsidies. It was travel subsidies AND adding sports for the Big West and Missouri Valley.

UCI is the closest thing to an NMSU type of basketball program in the BW and they have been to the NCAA tournament twice in their history. In 2013-2014, UCI was eliminated in the conference post-season tournament by Cal Poly, who got into the NCAA tournament with a 13-19 record. A 13-19 team representing the conference in the NCAA tournament is not a sign of a good conference.

RPI is directly related to the seeding in the NCAA tournament:
2014 Cal Poly #16 (first NCAA appearance)
2015 UCI #13 (first NCAA appearance)
2016 Hawaii #13 (first appearance in 14 years)
2017 UC Davis #16 (first NCAA appearance)
2018 CSUF - #15 (third NCAA appearance in 44 years)
2019 UCI #13

The seeding is a reflection of the RPI, regular season record, strength of schedule. The Big West is a one bid conference with a conference RPI that is usually in the 20's. Having different teams go every year does not offset RPI. It just means the conference has no dominant team and basically a bunch of mediocre basketball schools.

Denver never get a conference offer for entrance from either the MVC or Big West. In the MVC, the final four came down to UMKC, UIC, Valpo and Loyola of Chicago. The MVC leadership made visits to all four schools. Denver did not make the cut. They only had three men's sports that the MVC participates in (basketball, golf, soccer). I think they had a phone conversation and realized it was not going to work. I think the MVC was always leaning to the Chicago area to replace Creighton.

The Big West did not need Denver in 2013. Whatever the BW was going to ask for, it was not going to be cheap and it was going to be more than they would have demanded from a California school. Just because two conferences have a conversation, does not mean it is going to happen.

In the WCC, LMU and Pepperdine fly to Spokane, Provo, Portland, Stockton and the Bay Area. The big trip in the BW is to Hawaii and that is subsidized by Hawaii.

Seeding hasn't exactly been a good look for the WAC either.
2014 New Mexico State #13
2015 New Mexico State #15
2016 Cal State Bakersfield #15
2017 New Mexico State #14
2018 New Mexico State #12
2019 New Mexico State #12

Superior NET and RPI rankings can't mask the WAC is one and done. The last team to win a tournament game was Nevada in 2007. New Mexico State's dominance has not resulted in anything tangible for the rest of the conference. Good luck selling Denver on such an arrangement, and that's before we get into academics.

Cal Poly, UC Davis, Hawaii and UC Irvine have won games recently and earned two credits each. Hawaii in 2016 and UC Irvine in 2019 reached the Round of 32. Nobody in the WAC - aka New Mexico State - has done that for at least a decade.

The big trips in the BW is to Hawaii and Davis. I don't believe the SoCal members bus there - can't miss too much class time, ya know - and UCSD will certainly be flying there since the two schools are roughly 525 miles apart.

The WCC has seven California members. That's at least four bus trips between LMU, Pepperdine and San Diego. And six between the Bay Area schools. They all ride the bus a fair amount too.

The BW did not need Denver in 2013 and does not now. But it is better off with Denver as a 12th member than some Cal State or UC. Funny thing is, if Denver ever joined they would bring women's swimming and diving back to the BW as a conference sport.

(08-22-2019 05:23 PM)puck swami Wrote:  Both Denver and the WCC membership likely detests GCUs University funding model, which is moving from outright for-profit to 'non-profit' by using a shell corporation scheme that still funds the school through its 70,000 student online diploma mill.

From Forbes Magazine in 2017:
"According to a corporate filing, the newly-minted nonprofit will pay out 60% of tuition and fees to its not-so-distant owner...“No other university in the country has its CEO working for its contractor and for itself,” Robert Shireman, a former member of the Obama administration’s Department of Education and part of the progressive Century Foundation think tank, told The Phoenix New Times. He added: “The wolves are putting on sheep’s clothing, and hoping that the rest of us will not notice.”

I believe the WCC is much more interested in 'institutional fit' versus new markets, and given GCU's very controversial fundraising model, I don't see them ever moving to that league, no matter how good the sports programs become.

And to answer some other questions, DU is very happy in the Big East for lacrosse. It's a great conference for DU brand alignment -- Denver's East Coast visibility and for attracting upscale prospective students from the East. If DU basketball were to ever get good enough to merit a full conference invite from the Big East, DU would jump at it - after all, if Creighton can do the Big East, Denver could do it too. DU's sports menu would be instantly competitive in the Big East today, except for basketball.

Finally, would DU do water polo or men's volleyball? If the WCC asked DU to add those sports for admission, I am sure DU would likely consider it. Water polo would probably be the easiest to add, especially for women. DU is 57% female at the undergrad level. Beach Volleyball would be an even easier add, if it was needed, due to smaller rosters. Men's Volleyball would be tougher, due to title IX. DU would find these sport all very hard to recruit in, given our location in the Rockies, but I'm sure DU could find some West Coast athletes if DU were accepted in the WCC.

The good news about women's water polo or men's volleyball, is the facilities are already in place at DU and they're both indoor venues (I think?).

The WCC doesn't sponsor any of those sports, but beach volleyball is one I could see the WCC adding in the future.

(08-22-2019 05:35 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  The WCC doesn't sponsor any of those sports, but beach volleyball is one I could see the WCC adding in the future.

The WCC already sponsors Beach Volleyball, which 7 members play:

Pepperdine, Portland, LMU, UOP, SMC, USF, SCU

DU plays all the sports sponsored by the WCC except BB, SB, BVB. The only sports they'd need to find a new home for would be Swimming & Diving (Men's and Women's) -- that would likely be the MPSF (currently a mix of BW and WCC schools for S&D).

Note, as pointed out by others, your recollection of DU's response to travel subsidies was far from the truth.

I don't see DU being invited to the WCC unless Gonzaga or BYU leave, leaving the league at an odd number. This means check back in 2025 to see if anything changed due to a B12 move.

(08-22-2019 06:29 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  

(08-22-2019 05:35 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  The WCC doesn't sponsor any of those sports, but beach volleyball is one I could see the WCC adding in the future.

The WCC already sponsors Beach Volleyball, which 7 members play:

Pepperdine, Portland, LMU, UOP, SMC, USF, SCU

DU plays all the sports sponsored by the WCC except BB, SB, BVB. The only sports they'd need to find a new home for would be Swimming & Diving (Men's and Women's) -- that would likely be the MPSF (currently a mix of BW and WCC schools for S&D).

Note, as pointed out by others, your recollection of DU's response to travel subsidies was far from the truth.

I don't see DU being invited to the WCC unless Gonzaga or BYU leave, leaving the league at an odd number. This means check back in 2025 to see if anything changed due to a B12 move.

I wasn't sure about the WCC sponsoring beach volleyball. I stand corrected there.

Would WCC be interested in inviting Colorado Mesa as an affiliated in Women's Beach Volleyball? They are an Independent and might get Denver to add the sport.

https://denverpioneers.com/news/2012/12/...neers.aspx

"Us joining the Summit really gives us an opportunity to achieve our core challenges. In conversations with multiple, multiple challenges, it became a significant challenge because it was the conversation of, 'Sure, we'd like to add Denver, but we'd like you to add two or three or four sports.' When you look at that combined with increased travel and membership costs, it became an issue where we were fortunate the Summit wanted DU."

Granted, that Bradley-Doppes quote is from 2012. But it was on Denver's website which is a good source. I read her comments to mean it wasn't just travel subsidies. It was the request for travel subs AND adding sports which pushed Denver to the Summit.

(08-22-2019 07:59 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Would WCC be interested in inviting Colorado Mesa as an affiliated in Women's Beach Volleyball? They are an Independent and might get Denver to add the sport.

How would adding Colorado Mesa beach volleyball benefit the WCC? All it does is add a member that every team has to fly to

(08-22-2019 04:11 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  WCC coaches are looking at Grand Canyon U. Denver would be smart to tag onto GCU and offered WCC as a pair because you get 2 large media markets with two privates.

Grand Canyon is probably more toxic than Liberty. They are only in the WAC because the WAC was in desperation mode for survival. They will never be invited to the WCC or Big West or anywhere else.

If the WCC was going to expand by 2, which they're not, it would be Seattle first and then maybe Denver. With their odd sports lineup and lack of basketball success, despite being a strong academic institution and in a major market, DU just isn't much of a catch. As a Catholic school and former WCC member, Seattle is first in line, I guarantee it.

(08-22-2019 08:15 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  https://denverpioneers.com/news/2012/12/...neers.aspx

"Us joining the Summit really gives us an opportunity to achieve our core challenges. In conversations with multiple, multiple challenges, it became a significant challenge because it was the conversation of, 'Sure, we'd like to add Denver, but we'd like you to add two or three or four sports.' When you look at that combined with increased travel and membership costs, it became an issue where we were fortunate the Summit wanted DU."

Granted, that Bradley-Doppes quote is from 2012. But it was on Denver's website which is a good source. I read her comments to mean it wasn't just travel subsidies. It was the request for travel subs AND adding sports which pushed Denver to the Summit.

I know that was an issue with the MVC. When they talked to DU they wanted DU to add additional sports. They have an odd mix of sports that makes it difficult for them to fit in.

(08-22-2019 04:11 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  WCC coaches are looking at Grand Canyon U. Denver would be smart to tag onto GCU and offered WCC as a pair because you get 2 large media markets with two privates.

Not happening, will not happen.

I've seen some comments that GCU talked to the Summit in the past year but that the Summit chose to not pursue them. Don't know where that came from and I can't verify that it is true, but it is out there.

(08-22-2019 05:25 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  Seeding hasn't exactly been a good look for the WAC either.
2014 New Mexico State #13
2015 New Mexico State #15
2016 Cal State Bakersfield #15
2017 New Mexico State #14
2018 New Mexico State #12
2019 New Mexico State #12

Superior NET and RPI rankings can't mask the WAC is one and done. The last team to win a tournament game was Nevada in 2007. New Mexico State's dominance has not resulted in anything tangible for the rest of the conference. Good luck selling Denver on such an arrangement, and that's before we get into academics.

Cal Poly, UC Davis, Hawaii and UC Irvine have won games recently and earned two credits each. Hawaii in 2016 and UC Irvine in 2019 reached the Round of 32. Nobody in the WAC - aka New Mexico State - has done that for at least a decade.

The big trips in the BW is to Hawaii and Davis. I don't believe the SoCal members bus there - can't miss too much class time, ya know - and UCSD will certainly be flying there since the two schools are roughly 525 miles apart.

The WCC has seven California members. That's at least four bus trips between LMU, Pepperdine and San Diego. And six between the Bay Area schools. They all ride the bus a fair amount too.

The BW did not need Denver in 2013 and does not now. But it is better off with Denver as a 12th member than some Cal State or UC. Funny thing is, if Denver ever joined they would bring women's swimming and diving back to the BW as a conference sport.

We could go back-and-forth on this all day. You don't think conference RPI is that important. I think it is. We will agree to disagree on that point. The Big West was not interested in Denver without the travel stipend. Let's don't try to change the facts. Denver has no chance of being invited to the WCC because their basketball is not good enough and they don't have baseball. If they were Gonzaga good in basketball, the WCC could care less about baseball. If they were NMSU good in basketball, they would be considered on basketball alone.

But their current level of play in the Summit puts them behind Seattle, GCU and CBU for consideration for any WCC openings in the future. They need to recruit the west coast. They have no western players on their current basketball roster, including players from Colorado.

If they decide they want to stay in the Summit, that is okay, but don't expect to get an invite over western schools like Seattle, GCU and CBU to the WCC. Last season, they lost to Seattle by 19, UVU by 23 and UCI by 34 points. CBU lost to UCI by 3 points. Denver is just not competitive enough in basketball for the WCC. The WAC does not need Denver to add sports, it is a western conference with headquarters in Denver and there are three other private schools in the WAC. It will certainly help in their recruitment of western athletes and has no effect on ice hockey or lacrosse.

(08-22-2019 05:25 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  Cal Poly, UC Davis have won games recently and earned two credits each.

These are arguments that favor the WAC and actually embarrass the Big West. The WAC has never gone south of a 15-seed while the Big West had to "play-in" to the NCAA Tournament twice.

(08-22-2019 10:10 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  

(08-22-2019 04:11 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  WCC coaches are looking at Grand Canyon U. Denver would be smart to tag onto GCU and offered WCC as a pair because you get 2 large media markets with two privates.

Grand Canyon is probably more toxic than Liberty. They are only in the WAC because the WAC was in desperation mode for survival. They will never be invited to the WCC or Big West or anywhere else.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/c.../71175576/

The comparison to Liberty is ridiculous. At least one coach in the WCC disagrees:

"They'd be a good fit for our league and a good media market for our league to be in, so I think it's only a matter of time," St. Mary's basketball coach Randy Bennett said. "They need to fight through these years and then when they are eligible for the postseason as far as NIT and NCAA, then I think it's going to happen."

Rick Pitino added:

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basket...-kentucky/

"This in college basketball in my 40-plus years was the toughest crowd I ever faced," Pitino said. "It was awesome. I don't know how -- I don't know a whole lot about Grand Canyon except for us doing Dan a favor coming out here. I probably would have lost my job if I had lost by doing people favors. But you have something really special here."

Coaches don't add teams to a league. Presidents do.

And you getting into DavidSt territory using a four year old quote to try to make a point.

(08-23-2019 10:32 AM)jacksfan29 Wrote:  

(08-22-2019 04:11 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  WCC coaches are looking at Grand Canyon U. Denver would be smart to tag onto GCU and offered WCC as a pair because you get 2 large media markets with two privates.

Not happening, will not happen.

I've seen some comments that GCU talked to the Summit in the past year but that the Summit chose to not pursue them. Don't know where that came from and I can't verify that it is true, but it is out there.

I believe it came from the USD AD during a radio interview on Bison 1660(Fargo). Maybe it's also leaked from other sources as I heard people talking about it shortly before the interview aired. It sounds like the 4 Dakota schools plus Denver were opposed and ORU was supportive. Unknown how the other Summit schools (informally) voted. I'm fairly certain the schools that voted against GCU did it for academic and not competitive reasons.