We've seen some big numbers claimed here for how much travel costs schools are incurring. We've also seen big numbers claimed for how much switching conferences will cost (or save).

Does anyone actually know how much their schools are spending, and on what?

For example, how much does it cost to move a football team to an away game 1,000 miles away? And what's included in that?

What if that game were only 600 miles away? How much would you save?

I wonder how much travel partners save on travel cost.
It has to be a decent amount because the SBC has two non football schools for travel partners.
Travel partners means one flight reasonable bus ride to second school one flight back for distant conference foes.
Versus flying to each conference school except a few.

(07-29-2019 03:34 PM)CoastalVANDAL Wrote:  I wonder how much travel partners save on travel cost.
It has to be a decent amount because the SBC has two non football schools for travel partners.
Travel partners means one flight reasonable bus ride to second school one flight back for distant conference foes.
Versus flying to each conference school except a few.

That only works on certain sports where you can bundle two trips into one--like volleyball or basketball. For a sport like baseball---where you make one trip to play a 3 game series at one school over a weekend---travel partners wont make one bit of difference. So, it varies depending on the sports a school plays.

UConn claimed they paid a little over 7 million a year for travel last year

On travel partners. You have to weigh the costs of flights versus hotel stays and lost class time. It almost always much cheaper to fly home the fly to your next destination on Saturday morning that to stay in hotels for two nights. (This is easier on schools a time zone to the west of their destination as they gain an hour returning; so an 11pm flight from Philly or Orlando still gets you back in Houston or Memphis before midnight)

Most schools, including all the power schools, the Big East, American and Mountain West among others, rarely spend a Thursday and Friday night in hotels for a Thursday-Saturday Basketball or Volleyball set. Instead they take a night flight home to let their student athletes be in their own beds and go to class on Friday. In this sense travel partners (really destination partners) are antiquated.

Where they are still useful is conferences like the WCC and Horizen where a lot of Friday Night-Saturday afternoon games are scheduled and schools are less than 90 minutes apart by bus. So you only have one night in a hotel and it's not a school night.

But for power conferences and even those like the AAC and MWC (no two schools, except the front range, are within driving distance anyway in the MWC) the two schools one plays on a Thursday, Saturday sequence doesn't matter since it's two flights either way. (some Midwest and Southern schools are close enough they just bus ride anyway for certain B1G and SEC games -- Northwestern has multiple schools within a 3 hour bus ride for example)

This is why the AAC is not keen on adding an all sports Mountain Time school like Colorado State, nor is Texas keen on a Pac-12 move.

In a very real sense the concept of travel partners (really destination partners) is a bit antiquated, except on the rare Friday-Sunday pairings or Saturday-Monday when Monday is a school holiday (i.e., Presidents day and MLK day), where one can take advantage and stay a day (i.e, a Friday-Sunday allows one to stay in LA or Phoenix or Oregon or SF and short hop ride to the 2nd P12 opponent, and have a lazy Saturday, maybe a practice at a local High School or Junior College).

Costs of travel also depend on whether flights are chartered, which some of the bigger programs do, or commercial. The bigger level the league, the more spread out the opponents, the less it matters where the two schools are. It doesn't matter for Georgetown if the two opponents are Marquette and Creighton or Xavier and Providence, it's two flights either way. They are not staying overnight. This is why the Big East, the American and the Mountain West do not care that much about being 11.

(07-29-2019 04:31 PM)scoscox Wrote:  UConn claimed they paid a little over 7 million a year for travel last year

How much of that was for football? I'm assuming that's the sport where travel is the most expensive, given the sheer size of the squad.

I made some assumptions about what activities require a cash outlay. Charter plane flight (Boeing 767 all seats first class), hotel rooms (students double occupancy, coaching staff single occupancy @ $200 per room), meals (four per person @ $25 per meal average), transportation from hotel to stadium, and from school to and from airport. Is there anything else?

Assuming 6 away games a year, that's about $630K a year. Men's basketball might be comparable despite the smaller roster, due to playing more games. At UConn, women's basketball could be in the same ballpark. That's less than $2 million total with truly first class travel. I'm also guessing that other sports don't travel in the same style as the stars do. How are they spending $5 million a year?

(07-29-2019 06:19 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(07-29-2019 04:31 PM)scoscox Wrote:  UConn claimed they paid a little over 7 million a year for travel last year

How much of that was for football? I'm assuming that's the sport where travel is the most expensive, given the sheer size of the squad.

I made some assumptions about what activities require a cash outlay. Charter plane flight (Boeing 767 all seats first class), hotel rooms (students double occupancy, coaching staff single occupancy @ $200 per room), meals (four per person @ $25 per meal average), transportation from hotel to stadium, and from school to and from airport. Is there anything else?

Assuming 6 away games a year, that's about $630K a year. Men's basketball might be comparable despite the smaller roster, due to playing more games. At UConn, women's basketball could be in the same ballpark. That's less than $2 million total with truly first class travel. I'm also guessing that other sports don't travel in the same style as the stars do. How are they spending $5 million a year?

There's also a high cost in travel for recruiting, as LSU and Oregon illustrate in this Stadium story on recruiting.

Players are not in all First Class seats, that's just on the Patriots own pair of 767s and on the dozen or so Delta converted 757s for the NBA and NHL which were sold to a leasing company and controlled by a trust set up by both leagues. There is not enough profit for the airline to equip an aircraft like that because it has to be used on Monday for a regular flight. The plane isn't making any $$$ when it is on the ground.

There's also been a shortage of charter aircraft available since 2017, and the grounding of the 737Max hasn't helped any.
From Bloomberg in 2017:

Quote:JetBlue, the Pirates’ preferred carrier, told ECU its charters were no longer available. In 2017, when ECU travels an average of 750 miles (1,200 kilometers) for its road football games, the team will pay $430,000 to fly Allegiant Air. After that, the Pirates’ travel coordinator isn’t sure what’s going to happen. “We’re not worried about the money -- it’s the availability,” Terrell Smith said.

Football charters are typically the 737 or A319.
Airliners.net typically has a thread with all the charters, and they are basic aircraft and far from glamorous if you are a lineman.

(07-29-2019 06:46 PM)Renandpat Wrote:  

(07-29-2019 06:19 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(07-29-2019 04:31 PM)scoscox Wrote:  UConn claimed they paid a little over 7 million a year for travel last year

How much of that was for football? I'm assuming that's the sport where travel is the most expensive, given the sheer size of the squad.

I made some assumptions about what activities require a cash outlay. Charter plane flight (Boeing 767 all seats first class), hotel rooms (students double occupancy, coaching staff single occupancy @ $200 per room), meals (four per person @ $25 per meal average), transportation from hotel to stadium, and from school to and from airport. Is there anything else?

Assuming 6 away games a year, that's about $630K a year. Men's basketball might be comparable despite the smaller roster, due to playing more games. At UConn, women's basketball could be in the same ballpark. That's less than $2 million total with truly first class travel. I'm also guessing that other sports don't travel in the same style as the stars do. How are they spending $5 million a year?

There's also a high cost in travel for recruiting, as LSU and Oregon illustrate in this Stadium story on recruiting.

Players are not in all First Class seats, that's just on the Patriots own pair of 767s and on the dozen or so Delta converted 757s for the NBA and NHL which were sold to a leasing company and controlled by a trust set up by both leagues. There is not enough profit for the airline to equip an aircraft like that because it has to be used on Monday for a regular flight. The plane isn't making any $$$ when it is on the ground.

There's also been a shortage of charter aircraft available since 2017, and the grounding of the 737Max hasn't helped any.
From Bloomberg in 2017:

Quote:JetBlue, the Pirates’ preferred carrier, told ECU its charters were no longer available. In 2017, when ECU travels an average of 750 miles (1,200 kilometers) for its road football games, the team will pay $430,000 to fly Allegiant Air. After that, the Pirates’ travel coordinator isn’t sure what’s going to happen. “We’re not worried about the money -- it’s the availability,” Terrell Smith said.

Football charters are typically the 737 or A319.
Airliners.net typically has a thread with all the charters, and they are basic aircraft and far from glamorous if you are a lineman.

My intent was to use the most expensive options/examples I could so as not to underestimate the cost of those trips. I didn't consider recruiting, as that comes out of a different line item altogether and generally isn't counted as "travel" costs. In any case, it also doesn't matter what conference one is in. You recruit where the players are.

A top of the line jet large enough for a football team would be priced at about $20K per flight hour. $430K amounts to more than $4,000 per passenger. That doesn't seem reasonable to me if it's meant to be for each flight. What seems more reasonable is that's how much they pay for the whole season's travel.

Rechecking my calculations, I should have allowed $600K for flights and $150K for all other expenses. If the flight number were closer to $450K, that would mean about $600K per year all in.

(07-29-2019 06:19 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(07-29-2019 04:31 PM)scoscox Wrote:  UConn claimed they paid a little over 7 million a year for travel last year

How much of that was for football? I'm assuming that's the sport where travel is the most expensive, given the sheer size of the squad.

It would certainly be the most expensive per trip, but also fewer trips than for a lot of sports, so it would be really interesting to see a breakdown.

Maybe someday a sports reporter does a FOIA request for the budget numbers from a public school

ODU spent 3.7 million in travel in 2015-2016 per this article. That’s up from 2.2 million when ODU was in the more compact CCA league. So, going from a compact regional league to a half continent league like CUSA or the AAC increases travel costs by about 1.5 million.

https://pilotonline.com/sports/college/o...abcf2.html

(07-31-2019 09:04 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  ODU spent 3.7 million in travel in 2015-2016 per this article. That’s up from 2.2 million when ODU was in the more compact CCA league. So, going from a compact regional league to a half continent league like CUSA or the AAC increases travel costs by about 1.5 million.

https://pilotonline.com/sports/college/o...abcf2.html

There's no way we could ever get back to a league with the geography we had in the CAA while playing FBS. Doing a east/west split in CUSA or something similar would not save us 1.5M.

(07-31-2019 09:27 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(07-31-2019 09:04 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  ODU spent 3.7 million in travel in 2015-2016 per this article. That’s up from 2.2 million when ODU was in the more compact CCA league. So, going from a compact regional league to a half continent league like CUSA or the AAC increases travel costs by about 1.5 million.

https://pilotonline.com/sports/college/o...abcf2.html

There's no way we could ever get back to a league with the geography we had in the CAA while playing FBS. Doing a east/west split in CUSA or something similar would not save us 1.5M.

That 1.5M in savings, basically replaces the lost CFP distribution, so it would be the exit fee holding things up for a new Eastern Conference league. With that info, not going to rule out a New Eastern Conference league as much in the future. It seems likely the CFP would pay the new league APR moeny of 300k a team.

It is why we see MWC, Big Sky and PAC 12 play football as an agreement. It does save PAC 12 schools like Washington State and Oregon State some money playing Portland State, Eastern Washington. Boise State, Idaho,Idaho State, BYU and Utah State. Those two sold less tickets than the rest of the conference. The Big Sky schools visit, and usually the fans from those schools do travel. Some are driving distance.

(07-31-2019 09:39 AM)Steve1981 Wrote:  

(07-31-2019 09:27 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(07-31-2019 09:04 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  ODU spent 3.7 million in travel in 2015-2016 per this article. That’s up from 2.2 million when ODU was in the more compact CCA league. So, going from a compact regional league to a half continent league like CUSA or the AAC increases travel costs by about 1.5 million.

https://pilotonline.com/sports/college/o...abcf2.html

There's no way we could ever get back to a league with the geography we had in the CAA while playing FBS. Doing a east/west split in CUSA or something similar would not save us 1.5M.

That 1.5M in savings, basically replaces the lost CFP distribution, so it would be the exit fee holding things up for a new Eastern Conference league. With that info, not going to rule out a New Eastern Conference league as much in the future. It seems likely the CFP would pay the new league APR moeny of 300k a team.

Well like I said, the savings wouldn't be that much. In the CAA ODU had: W&M, VCU, JMU, GMU, UNCW, Towson, Drexel. All as close as Charlotte or closer. All bus rides. Best we could do in an FBS league (not including AAC teams) would be Liberty. So maybe half million to a million in savings. And it would be different for each school included.

But I don't think anyone is going to form a new league that doesn't have CFP money and an autobid. Not worth it. It would have to be done within the framework of the SB and CUSA I think.

(07-31-2019 09:39 AM)Steve1981 Wrote:  

(07-31-2019 09:27 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  

(07-31-2019 09:04 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  ODU spent 3.7 million in travel in 2015-2016 per this article. That’s up from 2.2 million when ODU was in the more compact CCA league. So, going from a compact regional league to a half continent league like CUSA or the AAC increases travel costs by about 1.5 million.

https://pilotonline.com/sports/college/o...abcf2.html

There's no way we could ever get back to a league with the geography we had in the CAA while playing FBS. Doing a east/west split in CUSA or something similar would not save us 1.5M.

That 1.5M in savings, basically replaces the lost CFP distribution, so it would be the exit fee holding things up for a new Eastern Conference league. With that info, not going to rule out a New Eastern Conference league as much in the future. It seems likely the CFP would pay the new league APR moeny of 300k a team.

You could probably get pretty close. Here is my feeling---if reorganization comes to the G5---then its going to much different in my opinion. Dont think of things in terms of 12-14 team leagues. There might be some that big---but I think these new regional leagues could be just 8-10 team leagues. There might be a G6 or G7. The advantages of a small 8 team league is it allows for a very tight footprint, strong rivalries, easy travel for fans---and with just a 7 game conference schedule---you have extra OOC flexibility. You could schedule an OOC with 2 G5's (home and home), 2-P5's (home and home), and still have room for one payday game vs a big name P5 on the road or an extra home buy game. Heck, if you can pull it off--you could potentially schedule almost HALF your schedule against P5's.

(07-31-2019 10:18 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  There might be a G6 or G7. The advantages of a small 8 team league is it allows for a very tight footprint, strong rivalries, easy travel for fans---and with just a 7 game conference schedule---you have extra OOC flexibility. You could schedule an OOC with 2 G5's (home and home), 2-P5's (home and home), and still have room for one payday game vs a big name P5 on the road or an extra home buy game. Heck, if you can pull it off--you could potentially schedule almost HALF your schedule against P5's.

If you're right, it's hard to see how this would work with the AAC. I'm not sure i can configure one "tight" eight-team league out of it much less two.

Most AAC schools are on islands. Cincy is about 500 miles from the nearest AAC school. Memphis? They often get grouped with the western teams, but they aren't within 400 miles of any other AAC school. Tulane? More than 350 miles from Houston, their closest school. ECU? The closest AAC school is Navy, 300+ miles up the coast. USF and UCF? Clearly on an island of their own in Florida.

And in all cases, the cultural distance is just as large if not larger.

Heck, it's hard to create 3-team configurations out of the AAC roster that are reasonably "tight", geographically or culturally.

Seems like ODU broke even with CFP equaling extra travel expense.
The MAC has to be about equal to the MWC and ahead of C-USA or the SBC.
For ODU it is not about the money they probably lose money moving up with added cost to compete at the higher level.
An eight team conference sucks for basketball 11 or 12 is better.
The SBC model of 10/12 might be best allowing conference championship game and 11 conference home games in basketball.
If the conference championship game proves to be a waste of time.
Then an 8 or 9/12 model might be best with tight geography.

MAC travel cost vs MWC travel cost would be interesting to see.

(07-31-2019 10:32 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(07-31-2019 10:18 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  There might be a G6 or G7. The advantages of a small 8 team league is it allows for a very tight footprint, strong rivalries, easy travel for fans---and with just a 7 game conference schedule---you have extra OOC flexibility. You could schedule an OOC with 2 G5's (home and home), 2-P5's (home and home), and still have room for one payday game vs a big name P5 on the road or an extra home buy game. Heck, if you can pull it off--you could potentially schedule almost HALF your schedule against P5's.

If you're right, it's hard to see how this would work with the AAC. I'm not sure i can configure one "tight" eight-team league out of it much less two.

Most AAC schools are on islands. Cincy is about 500 miles from the nearest AAC school. Memphis? They often get grouped with the western teams, but they aren't within 400 miles of any other AAC school. Tulane? More than 350 miles from Houston, their closest school. ECU? The closest AAC school is Navy, 300+ miles up the coast. USF and UCF? Clearly on an island of their own in Florida.

And in all cases, the cultural distance is just as large if not larger.

Heck, it's hard to create 3-team configurations out of the AAC roster that are reasonably "tight", geographically or culturally.

Correct. If your reorganizing--its because its not working for any single league. Frankly, I dont think the AAC would be involved because they earn enough to make it worth the travel. But lets say that changes---then your not making small tight conferences out of just the parts from the AAC. You're building small tight conferences out of anyone in the G5 (plus any indys that might be interested).

(07-31-2019 10:18 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  You could probably get pretty close. Here is my feeling---if reorganization comes to the G5---then its going to much different in my opinion. Dont think of things in terms of 12-14 team leagues. There might be some that big---but I think these new regional leagues could be just 8-10 team leagues. There might be a G6 or G7. The advantages of a small 8 team league is it allows for a very tight footprint, strong rivalries, easy travel for fans---and with just a 7 game conference schedule---you have extra OOC flexibility. You could schedule an OOC with 2 G5's (home and home), 2-P5's (home and home), and still have room for one payday game vs a big name P5 on the road or an extra home buy game. Heck, if you can pull it off--you could potentially schedule almost HALF your schedule against P5's.

The big obstacle is that the powers-that-be have strongly discouraged the formation of new conferences because that would increase the number of March Madness autobids, and no one wants to be in a D-I conference without an autobid. If the March Madness issue ever goes away, either by taking the tournament out of the NCAA's hands or by a reorganization of how the MM money is distributed, then smaller conferences could be better for a lot of D-I schools.

(07-31-2019 12:16 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(07-31-2019 10:18 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  You could probably get pretty close. Here is my feeling---if reorganization comes to the G5---then its going to much different in my opinion. Dont think of things in terms of 12-14 team leagues. There might be some that big---but I think these new regional leagues could be just 8-10 team leagues. There might be a G6 or G7. The advantages of a small 8 team league is it allows for a very tight footprint, strong rivalries, easy travel for fans---and with just a 7 game conference schedule---you have extra OOC flexibility. You could schedule an OOC with 2 G5's (home and home), 2-P5's (home and home), and still have room for one payday game vs a big name P5 on the road or an extra home buy game. Heck, if you can pull it off--you could potentially schedule almost HALF your schedule against P5's.

The big obstacle is that the powers-that-be have strongly discouraged the formation of new conferences because that would increase the number of March Madness autobids, and no one wants to be in a D-I conference without an autobid. If the March Madness issue ever goes away, either by taking the tournament out of the NCAA's hands or by a reorganization of how the MM money is distributed, then smaller conferences could be better for a lot of D-I schools.

I know thats is a priority---but its not going to matter. That "reason" simply wont hold up in court anyway---so if financial realities start pushing the adgenda--that "preference" is going to lose. This would be about the survival of athletics at many schools. This would not be about trying to manufacture an extra G5 bid or two---and I think there would be a recognition of that. Otherwise, the NCAA will be challenged in court and they will lose. Besides, a minimal expansion of the opening truncanted "play in round" is an easy fix for the 1 or two extra auto-bids if D1 gets to this type of crisis in the G5.