(03-10-2019 09:43 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  I dont think this iteration of the team has shown anything more fielding-wise than became de rigueur through last season.

Yep. And hence my question about Janish - he is the crossover between last and this season, and he is supposed to be working with the infield; it has descended into an unprecedented clown show under his tutelage.

I hate to keep saying it, but I think the problem is that the talent is simply not as good as it was in the past. Maybe the reason our pitchers walk so many batters is that their stuff is not good enough to challenge hitters. Maybe the reason our defense is so bad is because the players just aren't that good defensively.

This is not meant as a knock on the players. They are all pretty damn good baseball players, and they certainly have had moments where they looked great. But they are not as good as what we became accustomed to expecting. How much of that is because negative recruiters used Wayne's age as a negative against him, how much is because Rice was $20,000 a year more expensive for a partial scholarship baseball player than TCU or Baylor, how much was because Jupiter aligned with Mars, I don't know--and neither does anyone else. But we had a run of truly exceptional talent for a long number of years, mid-1990s to mid-2010s. And now we have simply good baseball players and not as many exceptional talents. And that has to show up somewhere. Either you don't pitch as well, or you don't hit as well, or you don't field as well as you did when your talent level was higher.

I'm optimistic that we will be able to restore our talent level. But not overnight.

(03-10-2019 10:06 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Maybe the reason our defense is so bad is because the players just aren't that good defensively.

I don't agree. Our level of fielding is far below what ANY D1 baseball player should be able to perform. We can't field basic ground balls and execute straightforward throws to 1B - every freshman in high school has this down. Its the same as Special Teams in football. Lembo took the same talent we did fuckall with for a decade and made them good as a unit; our starting field position was something like ten yards better in 2018 than the years before. Sure, not winning a National Championship good, but MUCH MUCH better than previous.

Talent is why we aren't Mookie Betts in the field. Talent is not the reason we field like little leaguers.

I also do not know why looking at coaching is the LAST thing we want to do on this board. In every sport, its recruiting, talent, academic standards etc. but only years down the road do we begrudgingly consider the coach may be the problem. (general comment here, not focused on you owl#). Also good talent + bad coaching = meh. See exhibit B: Braun, Ben.

(03-10-2019 09:43 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(03-10-2019 08:14 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  think our current weekend rotation can keep us in games against any team in CUSA, provided the defense doesn't gift too many runs.

Well......

a) the game 2 fiasco underlies that once you scratch the first level pitching-wise, at *best* the pitching is mediocre. At worst it is 9 run innings.

b) 'provided the defense doesnt gift too many runs' --- that seems to be asking a lot with the present look. The first part of the current completed season seemed to be *exceptionally bad* 'gifting/error-wise'. The Minute Maid streak looked good. Followed by two games that looked like a reversion to the first 4 games. With all respect, this, to me, is the equivalent of 'I can win the Presidency of the United States, provided I can corral 280 EVs'. I dont think this iteration of the team has shown anything more fielding-wise than became de rigueur through last season.

I hope to be proved wrong. I would have also hoped that, at this point, I would have been proved wrong.

a) and that's precisely why I'm suggesting the deployment of Moss and Jefferies as co-"closers", with each available to go 2 - 3 innings twice a week. That covers all our games in the 4-game weeks we will have after this coming week.

(03-10-2019 10:06 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I hate to keep saying it, but I think the problem is that the talent is simply not as good as it was in the past. Maybe the reason our pitchers walk so many batters is that their stuff is not good enough to challenge hitters. Maybe the reason our defense is so bad is because the players just aren't that good defensively.

This is not meant as a knock on the players. They are all pretty damn good baseball players, and they certainly have had moments where they looked great. But they are not as good as what we became accustomed to expecting. How much of that is because negative recruiters used Wayne's age as a negative against him, how much is because Rice was $20,000 a year more expensive for a partial scholarship baseball player than TCU or Baylor, how much was because Jupiter aligned with Mars, I don't know--and neither does anyone else. But we had a run of truly exceptional talent for a long number of years, mid-1990s to mid-2010s. And now we have simply good baseball players and not as many exceptional talents. And that has to show up somewhere. Either you don't pitch as well, or you don't hit as well, or you don't field as well as you did when your talent level was higher.

I'm optimistic that we will be able to restore our talent level. But not overnight.

Our 5 first tier pitchers don't walk many batters at all. Nor do Lewis and Wood. And, no, the reason the other walk so many batters have nothing to do with "stuff". Deskins has great stuff, and he will be a major contributor during his Rice career, but right now he cannot find the strikezone. Gayle obviously has elite stuff. Greenwood and Bordwine both throw strikes, but both are stuggling a bit-- Greenwood much moreso than Bordwine-- in getting people out.

(03-10-2019 10:06 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I hate to keep saying it, but I think the problem is that the talent is simply not as good as it was in the past. Maybe the reason our pitchers walk so many batters is that their stuff is not good enough to challenge hitters. Maybe the reason our defense is so bad is because the players just aren't that good defensively.

This is not meant as a knock on the players. They are all pretty damn good baseball players, and they certainly have had moments where they looked great. But they are not as good as what we became accustomed to expecting. How much of that is because negative recruiters used Wayne's age as a negative against him, how much is because Rice was $20,000 a year more expensive for a partial scholarship baseball player than TCU or Baylor, how much was because Jupiter aligned with Mars, I don't know--and neither does anyone else. But we had a run of truly exceptional talent for a long number of years, mid-1990s to mid-2010s. And now we have simply good baseball players and not as many exceptional talents. And that has to show up somewhere. Either you don't pitch as well, or you don't hit as well, or you don't field as well as you did when your talent level was higher.

I'm optimistic that we will be able to restore our talent level. But not overnight.

I think comment this is spot-on. Matt Canterino is top-shelf talent and his performance this year shows it. There just isn't enough of that.

It is no criticism that there is no Anthony Rendon on this team; our players our gifted and I am certain work their tales off and are near the top of the travel baseball talent pyramid. But on the 1-100 scale, if Rendon was a 95, then these guys might be 80. That leads to 2 facts: the 95 level players are somewhere, and when they face us, they beat us, and our level of play is just not at the level of greatness that we had when we were contenders for Omaha, every year (15 years ago?).

Our pitchers do not walk too many because our coaches have not yet explained to our pitchers that when a batter has 4 balls, he gets to go to first base.

Our fielders do not make too many errors because no one hits them grounders in practice; that is their level of talent. And yes, you can find better fielders that would come to Rice, right now. However, they might hit like Paul Janish (MLB level), and that is just a trade-off that our coaches currenlty have to make. Because you know what a guy who hits .320 with power, walks a lot and fields great is? Anthony Rendon, and he isn't here.

Obviously this weekend did not go as well as we all would've hoped. However, I do believe the way we hit the ball Friday and Saturday could be a sign of good things to come from an offensive standpoint. Skip Johnson is a wizard when it comes to developing pitchers. He still works with Kershaw to this day. Knocking the ball around like that Friday and Saturday shows that we have some sort of clue.

(03-11-2019 07:13 AM)owlsfan Wrote:  Our fielders do not make too many errors because no one hits them grounders in practice; that is their level of talent.

You said Rendon was a 95 and our guys potentially and 80. Do you believe that our fielding is at an 80 level?

Rice is 290 out of 297 in fielding percentage. That's not an 80 level, that's a zero. Chalking our problems up to talent is how we managed to ignore problems for years in football, baseball, MBB and WBB.

(03-11-2019 09:19 AM)Antarius Wrote:  

(03-11-2019 07:13 AM)owlsfan Wrote:  Our fielders do not make too many errors because no one hits them grounders in practice; that is their level of talent.

You said Rendon was a 95 and our guys potentially and 80. Do you believe that our fielding is at an 80 level?

Rice is 290 out of 297 in fielding percentage. That's not an 80 level, that's a zero. Chalking our problems up to talent is how we managed to ignore problems for years in football, baseball, MBB and WBB.

I guess it depends on your scale. But if Rendon s a 95 and our guys are 80s, then I would say most guys under 65 are not recruited to play college baseball. JMHO.

BTW, Rendon is a 99.

(03-11-2019 09:25 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(03-11-2019 09:19 AM)Antarius Wrote:  

(03-11-2019 07:13 AM)owlsfan Wrote:  Our fielders do not make too many errors because no one hits them grounders in practice; that is their level of talent.

You said Rendon was a 95 and our guys potentially and 80. Do you believe that our fielding is at an 80 level?

Rice is 290 out of 297 in fielding percentage. That's not an 80 level, that's a zero. Chalking our problems up to talent is how we managed to ignore problems for years in football, baseball, MBB and WBB.

I guess it depends on your scale. But if Rendon s a 95 and our guys are 80s, then I would say most guys under 65 are not recruited to play college baseball. JMHO.

BTW, Rendon is a 99.

Not my scale. I was using the one from owlsfan. But fair enough. My issue is, I cannot logically reconcile how people here can say that our talent has dropped to where bottom 10 fielding is somehow explainable AND simultaneously argue that Graham deserved another year etc. If our talent really was bottom 10, then why did we recruit them at all? And why did we ostrich for several years while this happened?

To me, this is simply a cop out strategy which throws our players under the bus. I'm not a fan of using a group of 18 year olds as cannon fodder.

(03-11-2019 10:06 AM)Antarius Wrote:  

(03-11-2019 09:25 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(03-11-2019 09:19 AM)Antarius Wrote:  

(03-11-2019 07:13 AM)owlsfan Wrote:  Our fielders do not make too many errors because no one hits them grounders in practice; that is their level of talent.

You said Rendon was a 95 and our guys potentially and 80. Do you believe that our fielding is at an 80 level?

Rice is 290 out of 297 in fielding percentage. That's not an 80 level, that's a zero. Chalking our problems up to talent is how we managed to ignore problems for years in football, baseball, MBB and WBB.

I guess it depends on your scale. But if Rendon s a 95 and our guys are 80s, then I would say most guys under 65 are not recruited to play college baseball. JMHO.

BTW, Rendon is a 99.

Not my scale. I was using the one from owlsfan. But fair enough. My issue is, I cannot logically reconcile how people here can say that our talent has dropped to where bottom 10 fielding is somehow explainable AND simultaneously argue that Graham deserved another year etc. If our talent really was bottom 10, then why did we recruit them at all? And why did we ostrich for several years while this happened?

To me, this is simply a cop out strategy which throws our players under the bus. I'm not a fan of using a group of 18 year olds as cannon fodder.

Rendon was excellent in every category, so likely an unfair comparison. Most players have a category in which they are exceptional, and others in which they are not. It appears many of our players are unexceptional fielders.

I am sure many were recruited with the thought in mind that deficiencies can be fixed. I am ready to the fixing to start.

I also, like you, am not a fan of throwing players under the bus. That is one reason I hate the "bare cupboard" excuses.

(03-11-2019 09:19 AM)Antarius Wrote:  

(03-11-2019 07:13 AM)owlsfan Wrote:  Our fielders do not make too many errors because no one hits them grounders in practice; that is their level of talent.

You said Rendon was a 95 and our guys potentially and 80. Do you believe that our fielding is at an 80 level?

Rice is 290 out of 297 in fielding percentage. That's not an 80 level, that's a zero. Chalking our problems up to talent is how we managed to ignore problems for years in football, baseball, MBB and WBB.

My point is that our fielding is terrible, yes, but unless you tell me it is because we do not practice enough (which I doubt) or because we are not mentally there during games (show me evidence of that or how one proves that), it is likely that we are choosing to put players in the line-up who hit well, but do not field as well. As I said before, I am sure we could hit the travel-ball circuit and find some slick fielders, but their bats might not play at a college level, and if they did field well and hit great, they would be stars (whether they are scored 95 or 99 on a 1-100 scale), and stars are not coming here to the extent they once did.

You all remind me of the grumpy grand-dad who sits in the stands yelling at 12 year kids to "catch the da*n ball"; it isn't as if they aren't trying.

(03-10-2019 10:15 PM)Antarius Wrote:  

(03-10-2019 10:06 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Maybe the reason our defense is so bad is because the players just aren't that good defensively.

I don't agree. Our level of fielding is far below what ANY D1 baseball player should be able to perform. We can't field basic ground balls and execute straightforward throws to 1B - every freshman in high school has this down. Its the same as Special Teams in football. Lembo took the same talent we did fuckall with for a decade and made them good as a unit; our starting field position was something like ten yards better in 2018 than the years before. Sure, not winning a National Championship good, but MUCH MUCH better than previous.

Talent is why we aren't Mookie Betts in the field. Talent is not the reason we field like little leaguers.

I also do not know why looking at coaching is the LAST thing we want to do on this board. In every sport, its recruiting, talent, academic standards etc. but only years down the road do we begrudgingly consider the coach may be the problem. (general comment here, not focused on you owl#). Also good talent + bad coaching = meh. See exhibit B: Braun, Ben.

Our fielding may be far below what any D1 team should be able to perform but that is where we are. No not every freshman in HS has that down either. HS players make all kinds of errors with balls that are batted much easier than the ones you deal with in college. If you want to look at coaching then so be it. Graham did not recruit and hampered our recruiting for the better or his last decade. Even in the late 2000s people were afraid to commit because of his age. You can disagree all you want about the reasoning behind our fielding issues. Yes some of it COULD be coaching but there is only so much a coach can do. Janish cannot field and throw for these guys. We will have to be patient to see how this changes over the next few years.

(03-11-2019 11:01 AM)owlsfan Wrote:  

(03-11-2019 09:19 AM)Antarius Wrote:  

(03-11-2019 07:13 AM)owlsfan Wrote:  Our fielders do not make too many errors because no one hits them grounders in practice; that is their level of talent.

You said Rendon was a 95 and our guys potentially and 80. Do you believe that our fielding is at an 80 level?

Rice is 290 out of 297 in fielding percentage. That's not an 80 level, that's a zero. Chalking our problems up to talent is how we managed to ignore problems for years in football, baseball, MBB and WBB.

My point is that our fielding is terrible, yes, but unless you tell me it is because we do not practice enough (which I doubt) or because we are not mentally there during games (show me evidence of that or how one proves that), it is likely that we are choosing to put players in the line-up who hit well, but do not field as well. As I said before, I am sure we could hit the travel-ball circuit and find some slick fielders, but their bats might not play at a college level, and if they did field well and hit great, they would be stars (whether they are scored 95 or 99 on a 1-100 scale), and stars are not coming here to the extent they once did.

You all remind me of the grumpy grand-dad who sits in the stands yelling at 12 year kids to "catch the da*n ball"; it isn't as if they aren't trying.

Please read my posts and tell me where I am blaming the players. My point is the exact opposite. Maybe I'm the grumpy grand-dad, but I'm yelling at the coach, not the players.

Trei Cruz helped his HS win state at a private school level. he was drafted (albeit, not high, but if he really was bottom 10 then no MLB team would draft him). He has made 10 errors this year. Option 1 is that he actually isn't D1 caliber or option 2 is he is grossly underperforming his talent. I'm leaning towards option 2, since he isn't the only one - several of our players have regressed in the field over the last several years (with an accelerated decline in the last 2). Remember Leon Byrd? He started off great and turned into a liability in the field. If it was only him, the sure, point the finger there. But it wasn't, so blaming our players just isn't valid.

There's a big difference between not being good at fielding and being bottom 10. Bottom 10 out of 300 is unprecedentedly bad.

I don't believe in a rush to judgment. We've only played 17 games. In the last 8 games we've made 9 errors. Not great, but an improvement from the first 9. I don't believe we can blame the coaches. Did Janish teach the SS and 3B how to make errors? When Derek Jeter was 19 he made 56 errors in 126 games or a .889 fielding pct. Guess the Yankees minor league instructors didn't know how to teach defense.

+1. Folks here jump to extremes so quickly, it's absurd.

I mentioned this in another thread but Cruz was okay at 2B last year (11 errors for the season) - not amazing, but decent enough. I'm not entirely convinced he's a natural SS but he's been a little better lately. I speculated he and Edwards could switch positions but I guess Edwards isn't anything great at SS either, or otherwise, I would have expected that move already.

(03-11-2019 12:40 PM)bobreinhold1 Wrote:  I don't believe in a rush to judgment. We've only played 17 games. In the last 8 games we've made 9 errors. Not great, but an improvement from the first 9. I don't believe we can blame the coaches. Did Janish teach the SS and 3B how to make errors? When Derek Jeter was 19 he made 56 errors in 126 games or a .889 fielding pct. Guess the Yankees minor league instructors didn't know how to teach defense.

We can absolutely blame the coaches for what appears to be an extreme lack of focus, concentration and self-confidence.

(03-11-2019 12:45 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  +1. Folks here jump to extremes so quickly, it's absurd.

We spent ELEVEN years with a football coach, SIXTEEN with an MBB coach etc. Neither were great. But we sat back and waited.

You think we are quick on the draw here? Really?

(03-11-2019 12:45 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  I mentioned this in another thread but Cruz was okay at 2B last year (11 errors for the season) - not amazing, but decent enough. I'm not entirely convinced he's a natural SS but he's been a little better lately. I speculated he and Edwards could switch positions but I guess Edwards isn't anything great at SS either, or otherwise, I would have expected that move already.

Isn't that the definition of regressing? Which is the point I am making.

(03-11-2019 12:40 PM)bobreinhold1 Wrote:  I don't believe in a rush to judgment. We've only played 17 games. In the last 8 games we've made 9 errors. Not great, but an improvement from the first 9. I don't believe we can blame the coaches. Did Janish teach the SS and 3B how to make errors? When Derek Jeter was 19 he made 56 errors in 126 games or a .889 fielding pct. Guess the Yankees minor league instructors didn't know how to teach defense.

We have more than 17 games to look at. Last year was a fielding mess too.

I just don't understand why this board is so quick to denounce our talent but will spend decades defending coaches.

(03-11-2019 01:55 PM)Antarius Wrote:  

(03-11-2019 12:40 PM)bobreinhold1 Wrote:  I don't believe in a rush to judgment. We've only played 17 games. In the last 8 games we've made 9 errors. Not great, but an improvement from the first 9. I don't believe we can blame the coaches. Did Janish teach the SS and 3B how to make errors? When Derek Jeter was 19 he made 56 errors in 126 games or a .889 fielding pct. Guess the Yankees minor league instructors didn't know how to teach defense.

We have more than 17 games to look at. Last year was a fielding mess too.

I just don't understand why this board is so quick to denounce our talent but will spend decades defending coaches.

Relax Ant Man, Bragga and his staff are working with what was inherited. Last year's games mean nothing. 17 games is our sample size like it or not.