(11-27-2018 08:02 PM)whittx Wrote:  

(11-27-2018 03:33 PM)ken d Wrote:  HBCU's are a political nightmare all accross the country, and especially in the south. There's no good way to fix them, even though most people recognize that they are broken. Maybe, rather than merging them in ways that don't make much sense, it would be better to privatize them, giving them a subsidy that would be phased out over time to ease the transition. If their is a place for them in the marketplace of higher education, they will find a way to survive. And if not, are we doing them any favors by keeping them on life support?

And the first place that should do this is South Carolina State, since they can merge with Clafflin, a private HBCU located literally next door.

Except for the fact that Claflin wants absolutely nothing to do with a merger because of the polar opposite missions and academic standings of the two schools.

Mods, please move this topic to the political section.

(11-27-2018 08:47 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(11-27-2018 04:13 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  be merged into the University of Alabama system??

Both Alabama A&M and Auburn are land grant universities, so basically this would give Auburn a campus near Huntsville. Likewise, if Alabama State were merged into the University of Alabama system, it would give UA a campus in Montgomery. It would force both Alabama A&M and Alabama State to improve academics, but it wouldn't elminate the campuses either, and it would give both Alabama and Auburn access to areas of the state where they really haven't had access before. Thoughts???

What if the merger was the other way around? UAH and Alabama A&M could merge and UAM and Alabama St could merge. The larger, HBCU athletic departments would form the the basis of each new school.

HBCUs are a political nightmare. They can't seem to attract enough students while maintaining their historic student profiles and trying to make the universities attractive to white students drives away prospective black students who want an HBCU experience. If they want to maintain their heritage I think it best to merge all of the HBCUs within a state into one HBCU system. Athletically, you could then reorganize the existing HBCU conferences into just one or two leagues for the consolidated universities. Since enfrastructure is already in place on multiple campuses the athletic programs could divide their home schedules among the various campuses.

That’s a good idea for athletics.

(11-28-2018 07:53 AM)texassouthern1992 Wrote:  I am a graduate of two HBCU. I had a great educational experience and really good career. First how about holding Governors and Legislators accountable for the appointment of University Regents. Secondly hold Regents accountable for hiring Adminstrators. I could go on. So yes having accountability should work. HBCU have had to sue for resources and still fight off duplication efforts by PWI. Having fewer boards are ok provided they look out for the schools they are responsible for managing.

Just some thoughts

You are right sir. We do need to hold our governors and legislators accountable too!! Speaking from personal observations with friends & coworkers, there are some colleges & universities that are held in low regard because of a reputation they have had in the past that may or may not be true in the present, which could have also been affected by insufficient funding. That college/university’s students & alumni can be negatively affected by that reputation which is really a shame because these students & alumni are going to be different from those that were from a previous era.

(11-28-2018 10:42 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(11-27-2018 08:02 PM)whittx Wrote:  

(11-27-2018 03:33 PM)ken d Wrote:  HBCU's are a political nightmare all accross the country, and especially in the south. There's no good way to fix them, even though most people recognize that they are broken. Maybe, rather than merging them in ways that don't make much sense, it would be better to privatize them, giving them a subsidy that would be phased out over time to ease the transition. If their is a place for them in the marketplace of higher education, they will find a way to survive. And if not, are we doing them any favors by keeping them on life support?

And the first place that should do this is South Carolina State, since they can merge with Clafflin, a private HBCU located literally next door.

Except for the fact that Claflin wants absolutely nothing to do with a merger because of the polar opposite missions and academic standings of the two schools.

True, but at some point, SCSU will be in trouble enough that the state might just work out a deal to make the entire thing Claflin.

(11-28-2018 11:35 AM)whittx Wrote:  

(11-28-2018 10:42 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(11-27-2018 08:02 PM)whittx Wrote:  

(11-27-2018 03:33 PM)ken d Wrote:  HBCU's are a political nightmare all accross the country, and especially in the south. There's no good way to fix them, even though most people recognize that they are broken. Maybe, rather than merging them in ways that don't make much sense, it would be better to privatize them, giving them a subsidy that would be phased out over time to ease the transition. If their is a place for them in the marketplace of higher education, they will find a way to survive. And if not, are we doing them any favors by keeping them on life support?

And the first place that should do this is South Carolina State, since they can merge with Clafflin, a private HBCU located literally next door.

Except for the fact that Claflin wants absolutely nothing to do with a merger because of the polar opposite missions and academic standings of the two schools.

True, but at some point, SCSU will be in trouble enough that the state might just work out a deal to make the entire thing Claflin.

I doubt there is anything the state can do to make it acceptable to Claflin. You are talking about one of the best rated HBCU's tumbling down the rankings the instant they agree to take on one of the worst, and being a private institution the state can't force Claflin to do anything.


I've long maintained that the best solution would be to fold SCSU in under Clemson since both are land grant institutions and already partner in numerous fields. Unlike the USC system Clemson would allow State to maintain their unique mission and identity instead of becoming USC-Orangeburg.

(11-28-2018 12:12 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(11-28-2018 11:35 AM)whittx Wrote:  

(11-28-2018 10:42 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(11-27-2018 08:02 PM)whittx Wrote:  

(11-27-2018 03:33 PM)ken d Wrote:  HBCU's are a political nightmare all accross the country, and especially in the south. There's no good way to fix them, even though most people recognize that they are broken. Maybe, rather than merging them in ways that don't make much sense, it would be better to privatize them, giving them a subsidy that would be phased out over time to ease the transition. If their is a place for them in the marketplace of higher education, they will find a way to survive. And if not, are we doing them any favors by keeping them on life support?

And the first place that should do this is South Carolina State, since they can merge with Clafflin, a private HBCU located literally next door.

Except for the fact that Claflin wants absolutely nothing to do with a merger because of the polar opposite missions and academic standings of the two schools.

True, but at some point, SCSU will be in trouble enough that the state might just work out a deal to make the entire thing Claflin.

I doubt there is anything the state can do to make it acceptable to Claflin. You are talking about one of the best rated HBCU's tumbling down the rankings the instant they agree to take on one of the worst, and being a private institution the state can't force Claflin to do anything.


I've long maintained that the best solution would be to fold SCSU in under Clemson since both are land grant institutions and already partner in numerous fields. Unlike the USC system Clemson would allow State to maintain their unique mission and identity instead of becoming USC-Orangeburg.

Agree that Clemson is a better solution than USC or making it the College of Charleston Orangeburg Campus.

As a lifelong resident of Alabama, I would suggest this...

Every public college in the state needs to be under the same governance structure. No more UA system, no more AU system, no more Troy system, or anything else.

Frankly, there are too many small colleges in this state that duplicate services and suck up valuable resources. There are a few of these campuses that need to close and all of that would be easier if everything was run by one set of trustees with input from the Governor and Legislature.

It's not that I don't want kids to have a chance to attend college and chart their own career path, but we are not a rich state and can't afford to model ourselves after others that have had better success with this model.

We've focused so much on making it easy for kids to go to college in this country that we've inflated the price so as to make it onerous. And then we've driven down the value of the finished product. We need more focus on trades and skills. As long as kids in a given state have a reasonable opportunity to attend college if they choose then I see no reason to have tens of campuses in a state with under 5 million people.

To me, it's not an issue of HBCUs versus traditional campuses. The whole outlay of everything is inefficient and counter-productive.

(11-27-2018 08:47 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(11-27-2018 04:13 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  be merged into the University of Alabama system??

Both Alabama A&M and Auburn are land grant universities, so basically this would give Auburn a campus near Huntsville. Likewise, if Alabama State were merged into the University of Alabama system, it would give UA a campus in Montgomery. It would force both Alabama A&M and Alabama State to improve academics, but it wouldn't elminate the campuses either, and it would give both Alabama and Auburn access to areas of the state where they really haven't had access before. Thoughts???

What if the merger was the other way around? UAH and Alabama A&M could merge and UAM and Alabama St could merge. The larger, HBCU athletic departments would form the the basis of each new school.

HBCUs are a political nightmare. They can't seem to attract enough students while maintaining their historic student profiles and trying to make the universities attractive to white students drives away prospective black students who want an HBCU experience. If they want to maintain their heritage I think it best to merge all of the HBCUs within a state into one HBCU system. Athletically, you could then reorganize the existing HBCU conferences into just one or two leagues for the consolidated universities. Since enfrastructure is already in place on multiple campuses the athletic programs could divide their home schedules among the various campuses.

Awhile back, a judge ruled that AUM did nothing but created duplicate, overlapping programs that ASU already provided and the two campuses should have been combined. Looking back, I”d say he probably was correct, considering the courses & degrees offered at both campuses, but what if Auburn actually increased the number of courses & degrees offered by including some that were specific to Auburn?? That would have made AUM more unique. Alabama could have done the same thing with its branch campuses, making them more attractive to prospective students who are unable to attend the main campus.
HBCUs can reinvent themselves by backing away from the party school image and focusing on providing degrees that are very useful and not offered by any other institution.

Troy reinvented itself, IMO, by offering degrees and classes online. Troy has always had an outstanding education program, but they took it one step further and made some of their degree offerings online. This is a wonderful resource for the people of southeastern Alabama who can’t commute to the main campus.

Montevallo, while it doesn’t have online program(s), has had a very good reputation for providing great education degrees and business degrees to the people who live near the Birmingham metro and like small classes. An education degree earned at Troy or Montevallo is held in very high esteem, from what I have experienced.

Here’s a mystery: why doesn’t Alabama have a medical school in Tuscaloosa?? I know that they have one in Birmingham, but why not offer at least an osteopathic school in Tuscaloosa??? The need for osteopathic schools in the state is so great, that a hospital near my home opened up its own osteopathic medical school not too long ago. Why can’t UA do the same for Tuscaloosa, because I’m sure there’s students who are unable to commute back and forth to downtown Birmingham, but would be interested in a medical school degree.

(11-29-2018 11:36 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(11-27-2018 08:47 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(11-27-2018 04:13 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  be merged into the University of Alabama system??

Both Alabama A&M and Auburn are land grant universities, so basically this would give Auburn a campus near Huntsville. Likewise, if Alabama State were merged into the University of Alabama system, it would give UA a campus in Montgomery. It would force both Alabama A&M and Alabama State to improve academics, but it wouldn't elminate the campuses either, and it would give both Alabama and Auburn access to areas of the state where they really haven't had access before. Thoughts???

What if the merger was the other way around? UAH and Alabama A&M could merge and UAM and Alabama St could merge. The larger, HBCU athletic departments would form the the basis of each new school.

HBCUs are a political nightmare. They can't seem to attract enough students while maintaining their historic student profiles and trying to make the universities attractive to white students drives away prospective black students who want an HBCU experience. If they want to maintain their heritage I think it best to merge all of the HBCUs within a state into one HBCU system. Athletically, you could then reorganize the existing HBCU conferences into just one or two leagues for the consolidated universities. Since enfrastructure is already in place on multiple campuses the athletic programs could divide their home schedules among the various campuses.

Awhile back, a judge ruled that AUM did nothing but created duplicate, overlapping programs that ASU already provided and the two campuses should have been combined. Looking back, I”d say he probably was correct, considering the courses & degrees offered at both campuses, but what if Auburn actually increased the number of courses & degrees offered by including some that were specific to Auburn?? That would have made AUM more unique. Alabama could have done the same thing with its branch campuses, making them more attractive to prospective students who are unable to attend the main campus.
HBCUs can reinvent themselves by backing away from the party school image and focusing on providing degrees that are very useful and not offered by any other institution.

Troy reinvented itself, IMO, by offering degrees and classes online. Troy has always had an outstanding education program, but they took it one step further and made some of their degree offerings online. This is a wonderful resource for the people of southeastern Alabama who can’t commute to the main campus.

Montevallo, while it doesn’t have online program(s), has had a very good reputation for providing great education degrees and business degrees to the people who live near the Birmingham metro and like small classes. An education degree earned at Troy or Montevallo is held in very high esteem, from what I have experienced.

Here’s a mystery: why doesn’t Alabama have a medical school in Tuscaloosa?? I know that they have one in Birmingham, but why not offer at least an osteopathic school in Tuscaloosa??? The need for osteopathic schools in the state is so great, that a hospital near my home opened up its own osteopathic medical school not too long ago. Why can’t UA do the same for Tuscaloosa, because I’m sure there’s students who are unable to commute back and forth to downtown Birmingham, but would be interested in a medical school degree.

The University of Alabama School of Medicine does operate in Tuscaloosa already.

Also, UA has made branch campuses popular over the last 50 years, hence UAB and UAH.

(11-29-2018 03:08 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(11-29-2018 11:36 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(11-27-2018 08:47 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(11-27-2018 04:13 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  be merged into the University of Alabama system??

Both Alabama A&M and Auburn are land grant universities, so basically this would give Auburn a campus near Huntsville. Likewise, if Alabama State were merged into the University of Alabama system, it would give UA a campus in Montgomery. It would force both Alabama A&M and Alabama State to improve academics, but it wouldn't elminate the campuses either, and it would give both Alabama and Auburn access to areas of the state where they really haven't had access before. Thoughts???

What if the merger was the other way around? UAH and Alabama A&M could merge and UAM and Alabama St could merge. The larger, HBCU athletic departments would form the the basis of each new school.

HBCUs are a political nightmare. They can't seem to attract enough students while maintaining their historic student profiles and trying to make the universities attractive to white students drives away prospective black students who want an HBCU experience. If they want to maintain their heritage I think it best to merge all of the HBCUs within a state into one HBCU system. Athletically, you could then reorganize the existing HBCU conferences into just one or two leagues for the consolidated universities. Since enfrastructure is already in place on multiple campuses the athletic programs could divide their home schedules among the various campuses.

Awhile back, a judge ruled that AUM did nothing but created duplicate, overlapping programs that ASU already provided and the two campuses should have been combined. Looking back, I”d say he probably was correct, considering the courses & degrees offered at both campuses, but what if Auburn actually increased the number of courses & degrees offered by including some that were specific to Auburn?? That would have made AUM more unique. Alabama could have done the same thing with its branch campuses, making them more attractive to prospective students who are unable to attend the main campus.
HBCUs can reinvent themselves by backing away from the party school image and focusing on providing degrees that are very useful and not offered by any other institution.

Troy reinvented itself, IMO, by offering degrees and classes online. Troy has always had an outstanding education program, but they took it one step further and made some of their degree offerings online. This is a wonderful resource for the people of southeastern Alabama who can’t commute to the main campus.

Montevallo, while it doesn’t have online program(s), has had a very good reputation for providing great education degrees and business degrees to the people who live near the Birmingham metro and like small classes. An education degree earned at Troy or Montevallo is held in very high esteem, from what I have experienced.

Here’s a mystery: why doesn’t Alabama have a medical school in Tuscaloosa?? I know that they have one in Birmingham, but why not offer at least an osteopathic school in Tuscaloosa??? The need for osteopathic schools in the state is so great, that a hospital near my home opened up its own osteopathic medical school not too long ago. Why can’t UA do the same for Tuscaloosa, because I’m sure there’s students who are unable to commute back and forth to downtown Birmingham, but would be interested in a medical school degree.

The University of Alabama School of Medicine does operate in Tuscaloosa already.

Also, UA has made branch campuses popular over the last 50 years, hence UAB and UAH.

Proof positive by the way that the BoT has no interest in "oppressing" UAB.

If the powers that be weren't interested in operating an efficient system then Tuscaloosa would have a fully funded medical school and UAB would be on the back burner. UA would be considered in another category nationally if our campus was credited with the research dollars and the ranking of the School of Medicine.

That venture, however, would be too expensive and duplicate programs. Thus, the School of Medicine is allowed to operate under the banner of UAB.

Slightly off-topic, but I thought I would point that out.

(11-28-2018 11:19 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(11-27-2018 08:47 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(11-27-2018 04:13 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  be merged into the University of Alabama system??

Both Alabama A&M and Auburn are land grant universities, so basically this would give Auburn a campus near Huntsville. Likewise, if Alabama State were merged into the University of Alabama system, it would give UA a campus in Montgomery. It would force both Alabama A&M and Alabama State to improve academics, but it wouldn't elminate the campuses either, and it would give both Alabama and Auburn access to areas of the state where they really haven't had access before. Thoughts???

What if the merger was the other way around? UAH and Alabama A&M could merge and UAM and Alabama St could merge. The larger, HBCU athletic departments would form the the basis of each new school.

HBCUs are a political nightmare. They can't seem to attract enough students while maintaining their historic student profiles and trying to make the universities attractive to white students drives away prospective black students who want an HBCU experience. If they want to maintain their heritage I think it best to merge all of the HBCUs within a state into one HBCU system. Athletically, you could then reorganize the existing HBCU conferences into just one or two leagues for the consolidated universities. Since enfrastructure is already in place on multiple campuses the athletic programs could divide their home schedules among the various campuses.

That’s a good idea for athletics.

That is what happened in Nashville. Tennessee-Nashville was merged into Tennessee St.

(11-28-2018 03:19 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  As a lifelong resident of Alabama, I would suggest this...

Every public college in the state needs to be under the same governance structure. No more UA system, no more AU system, no more Troy system, or anything else.

Frankly, there are too many small colleges in this state that duplicate services and suck up valuable resources. There are a few of these campuses that need to close and all of that would be easier if everything was run by one set of trustees with input from the Governor and Legislature.

It's not that I don't want kids to have a chance to attend college and chart their own career path, but we are not a rich state and can't afford to model ourselves after others that have had better success with this model.

We've focused so much on making it easy for kids to go to college in this country that we've inflated the price so as to make it onerous. And then we've driven down the value of the finished product. We need more focus on trades and skills. As long as kids in a given state have a reasonable opportunity to attend college if they choose then I see no reason to have tens of campuses in a state with under 5 million people.

To me, it's not an issue of HBCUs versus traditional campuses. The whole outlay of everything is inefficient and counter-productive.

The same is true of Texas with the University of Texas system, Texas A&M system, University of Houston system, Texas Tech system, University of North Texas system, State university system and a half dozen independent universities.

(11-29-2018 09:23 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  

(11-29-2018 03:08 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(11-29-2018 11:36 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(11-27-2018 08:47 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(11-27-2018 04:13 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  be merged into the University of Alabama system??

Both Alabama A&M and Auburn are land grant universities, so basically this would give Auburn a campus near Huntsville. Likewise, if Alabama State were merged into the University of Alabama system, it would give UA a campus in Montgomery. It would force both Alabama A&M and Alabama State to improve academics, but it wouldn't elminate the campuses either, and it would give both Alabama and Auburn access to areas of the state where they really haven't had access before. Thoughts???

What if the merger was the other way around? UAH and Alabama A&M could merge and UAM and Alabama St could merge. The larger, HBCU athletic departments would form the the basis of each new school.

HBCUs are a political nightmare. They can't seem to attract enough students while maintaining their historic student profiles and trying to make the universities attractive to white students drives away prospective black students who want an HBCU experience. If they want to maintain their heritage I think it best to merge all of the HBCUs within a state into one HBCU system. Athletically, you could then reorganize the existing HBCU conferences into just one or two leagues for the consolidated universities. Since enfrastructure is already in place on multiple campuses the athletic programs could divide their home schedules among the various campuses.

Awhile back, a judge ruled that AUM did nothing but created duplicate, overlapping programs that ASU already provided and the two campuses should have been combined. Looking back, I”d say he probably was correct, considering the courses & degrees offered at both campuses, but what if Auburn actually increased the number of courses & degrees offered by including some that were specific to Auburn?? That would have made AUM more unique. Alabama could have done the same thing with its branch campuses, making them more attractive to prospective students who are unable to attend the main campus.
HBCUs can reinvent themselves by backing away from the party school image and focusing on providing degrees that are very useful and not offered by any other institution.

Troy reinvented itself, IMO, by offering degrees and classes online. Troy has always had an outstanding education program, but they took it one step further and made some of their degree offerings online. This is a wonderful resource for the people of southeastern Alabama who can’t commute to the main campus.

Montevallo, while it doesn’t have online program(s), has had a very good reputation for providing great education degrees and business degrees to the people who live near the Birmingham metro and like small classes. An education degree earned at Troy or Montevallo is held in very high esteem, from what I have experienced.

Here’s a mystery: why doesn’t Alabama have a medical school in Tuscaloosa?? I know that they have one in Birmingham, but why not offer at least an osteopathic school in Tuscaloosa??? The need for osteopathic schools in the state is so great, that a hospital near my home opened up its own osteopathic medical school not too long ago. Why can’t UA do the same for Tuscaloosa, because I’m sure there’s students who are unable to commute back and forth to downtown Birmingham, but would be interested in a medical school degree.

The University of Alabama School of Medicine does operate in Tuscaloosa already.

Also, UA has made branch campuses popular over the last 50 years, hence UAB and UAH.

Proof positive by the way that the BoT has no interest in "oppressing" UAB.

If the powers that be weren't interested in operating an efficient system then Tuscaloosa would have a fully funded medical school and UAB would be on the back burner. UA would be considered in another category nationally if our campus was credited with the research dollars and the ranking of the School of Medicine.

That venture, however, would be too expensive and duplicate programs. Thus, the School of Medicine is allowed to operate under the banner of UAB.

Slightly off-topic, but I thought I would point that out.

Yea, that's always been a conspiracy theory and those are popular.

The organizational structure of the System is complex, part constitutionally mandated, party statutorily created so long as there is no conflict with the state constitution. Our state constitution is quite clear that UA is "[t]he state university." The existence of UA is commanded by the constitution, the system universities, with a B and an H, exist due to a statute and thats why they are not and never can be equals. The University of Alabama is also required to operate a medical school under the UA Board of Trustees under the name UA School of Medicine--which it does. That school is generally known as UAB.

The simple fact of the matter is that the system has allowed for a massively successful group of programs across the state that allow students in this state to receive a world-class education in just about anything, which is a significant accomplishment for the state.

Football is irrelevant to the overall picture.