(11-24-2018 03:34 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  Its pretty amazing. Where do you put the blame?

1. Nick Saban/Urban Meyer taking the best Fl recruits out of state.

2. APR rules which limit recruiting non-qualifiers. The nature of recruiting overall has changed.

3. Addition of all the new FBS programs in Florida and the south. Players that could walk on at Florida State now getting scholarships elsewhere.

4. End of the Bowden legacy in Tallahassee which continued on for a while with Jimbo Fisher.

When most programs hit trouble, the problem usually lies with coaching.

(11-26-2018 08:38 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  

(11-25-2018 02:47 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  None of the above.


It rests largely with two factors:

1. Rick Trickett quit developing offensive linemen at some point a few years before he was let go.

&

2. The star QB in the Netflix series "Last Chance U" has always been a former FSU QB. When you recruit low character players like Fisher did at FSU you end up with a low character team.

There's a reason why Jimbo left FSU. Even he could see the disaster that was looming.

There's going to be a ton of pressure on Taggart next year but he'll have FSU back sooner rather than later.

I think this is pretty much correct. Don't think there's any macro issues going on, I mostly just think Jimbo screwed up.

And he knew it which is why he left for A&M, even more than the money.

FSU is doing poorly because there's no reason that FSU should be doing great.

Look at where they're located geographically. It's a similar position to Fresno, ECU, or Washington State - a small town far away from the centers of power (even if it is the capital, it's one of the smallest state capitals relative to state size).

Look at where they are institutionally. 40 years ago, FSU was easily the 2nd best university in Florida. Today, UCF has caught up to them. USF passed them 10 years ago.

(11-26-2018 09:48 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  FSU is doing poorly because there's no reason that FSU should be doing great.

I do not like FSU, but they will be back, and sooner rather than later. FSU has established them as one of the top brands in college football. They have tremendous respect among top recruits. And their location in Florida is fine not only for Florida athletes seeking to stay close to home but also those from south Georgia and Alabama.

Anyone thinking the last two years represents the start of a permanent decline is in for a rude awakening.

(11-26-2018 10:02 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(11-26-2018 09:48 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  FSU is doing poorly because there's no reason that FSU should be doing great.

I do not like FSU, but they will be back, and sooner rather than later. FSU has established them as one of the top brands in college football. They have tremendous respect among top recruits. And their location in Florida is fine not only for Florida athletes seeking to stay close to home but also those from south Georgia and Alabama.

Anyone thinking the last two years represents the start of a permanent decline is in for a rude awakening.

Agreed. FSU still has amazing skill position talent, but it was impossible for that talent to utilize it's abilities when what was already going to be a sub-par OL is also decimated by injuries in preseason camp and in the early part of the season. If they are able to get just adequate OL play next season they can turn things around fairly quickly.

There's a ton of criticism from Nole fans that Blackman should have been playing ahead of Francois because he ran Taggart's system better, but IMO Taggart knew that Blackman wasn't going to last the season at his current size and with the state of the OL.

(11-26-2018 11:04 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(11-26-2018 10:02 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(11-26-2018 09:48 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  FSU is doing poorly because there's no reason that FSU should be doing great.

I do not like FSU, but they will be back, and sooner rather than later. FSU has established them as one of the top brands in college football. They have tremendous respect among top recruits. And their location in Florida is fine not only for Florida athletes seeking to stay close to home but also those from south Georgia and Alabama.

Anyone thinking the last two years represents the start of a permanent decline is in for a rude awakening.

Agreed. FSU still has amazing skill position talent, but it was impossible for that talent to utilize it's abilities when what was already going to be a sub-par OL is also decimated by injuries in preseason camp and in the early part of the season. If they are able to get just adequate OL play next season they can turn things around fairly quickly.

There's a ton of criticism from Nole fans that Blackman should have been playing ahead of Francois because he ran Taggart's system better, but IMO Taggart knew that Blackman wasn't going to last the season at his current size and with the state of the OL.

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According to Pro Football Focus ... Of the 849 FBS O-linemen in the country who have played 20 percent of team's snaps this season, FSU has guys ranked No. 849, 848, 830, 798, 771, 607 and 485. Have a great evening, folks!
5:54 PM - 15 Nov 2018

Will certainly be prowling the JUCO ranks and would almost expect at least one or two true freshmen that would be an upgrade over whatever the hell this year was.

(11-26-2018 10:02 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(11-26-2018 09:48 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  FSU is doing poorly because there's no reason that FSU should be doing great.

I do not like FSU, but they will be back, and sooner rather than later. FSU has established them as one of the top brands in college football. They have tremendous respect among top recruits. And their location in Florida is fine not only for Florida athletes seeking to stay close to home but also those from south Georgia and Alabama.

Anyone thinking the last two years represents the start of a permanent decline is in for a rude awakening.

Exactly. FSU will be fine. Tons of prestige, local talent, and an easy schedule annually. With decent coaching and roster management there's no reason the floor shouldn't be 8-4 or 9-3.

(11-26-2018 11:04 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(11-26-2018 10:02 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(11-26-2018 09:48 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  FSU is doing poorly because there's no reason that FSU should be doing great.

I do not like FSU, but they will be back, and sooner rather than later. FSU has established them as one of the top brands in college football. They have tremendous respect among top recruits. And their location in Florida is fine not only for Florida athletes seeking to stay close to home but also those from south Georgia and Alabama.

Anyone thinking the last two years represents the start of a permanent decline is in for a rude awakening.

Agreed. FSU still has amazing skill position talent, but it was impossible for that talent to utilize it's abilities when what was already going to be a sub-par OL is also decimated by injuries in preseason camp and in the early part of the season. If they are able to get just adequate OL play next season they can turn things around fairly quickly.

There's a ton of criticism from Nole fans that Blackman should have been playing ahead of Francois because he ran Taggart's system better, but IMO Taggart knew that Blackman wasn't going to last the season at his current size and with the state of the OL.

Whether FSU improves or not will depend upon recruiting. We'll have to see how Taggart does in perhaps the most highly competitive state in the nation for recruits. I'm not sure that Taggart has an established track record for recruiting, at least not as a head coach.

And you can site injuries to the OL if you like and their is substance to that claim, but the lack of attention to detail and subsequently the discipline of play were issues throughout this past year. I saw the same things under Butch Jones at Tennessee the past few years. You can't win consistently if you shoot yourselves in the foot half a dozen times a game. And that has nothing to do with the OL.

Does F.S.U. have the cachet to overcome its deficits? Absolutely. But so too did Miami and da U ain't back. It's better than it was under Richt, but how good is Richt?

Bowden was the last of an old line of head coaches who had loyalty to his school (well actually Snyder may be the last). Bowden made F.S.U. and it became his home and he wouldn't have moved if you held a gun to his head. Virtually all head coaches today are merely loyal to themselves. They can be hired away for a bit more money elsewhere.

F.S.U. post Bowden has now lost the heir apparent to a fatter check. The question now will be can they lure and keep a top notch head coach in a shrinking talent pool of coaching. I'm not so confident that it will be any more automatic than it now is anywhere else.

Alabama, a much more storied program had a deuce difficult time replacing Bear. When they found another home run coach they held onto him, but not because of his love of all things Bama, but because they pay him more than their competitors can afford, or are willing to pay.

That's where the paucity of revenue the ACC receives will have an impact. If you don't keep the best coaches you will never be able to duplicate the feats of Bowden and Schnellenberger/Johnson.

Look at your Clemson Tigers. You've always been able to recruit, but you haven't had the kind of guy would could develop that raw talent into a championship caliber team. Danny Ford did it and got clipped by jealous conference members. Then it was over 30 years before Dabo came through.

I'm sorry but there are no guarantees that FSU will back to championship status anytime soon, and there certainly isn't enough evidence to suggest Taggart is or isn't the guy.

So I'll wait and watch to see what happens. But this year is an indication of one thing that is crucial. They never improved on the mental mistakes that plagued their year and that's not a hopeful indicator. Smaller weaker players who get beaten by their opponents in games, can still play smart. And in F.S.U.'s case they never did.

In combat - and football is combat - troops won't thrive if their leader doesn't exude enormous confidence. And they need to exude it even when they don't feel it. Maybe even more than when they do feel it.

In his last two years at Florida State, I didn't see that confidence in Fisher's demeanor. And so far, I haven't seen it in Taggart's either. Until they get that guy, Florida State will be good just because of their talent relative to their league. Buy IMO they won't be great until they have someone the players will run into a burning building for.

(11-27-2018 01:35 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(11-26-2018 11:04 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(11-26-2018 10:02 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(11-26-2018 09:48 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  FSU is doing poorly because there's no reason that FSU should be doing great.

I do not like FSU, but they will be back, and sooner rather than later. FSU has established them as one of the top brands in college football. They have tremendous respect among top recruits. And their location in Florida is fine not only for Florida athletes seeking to stay close to home but also those from south Georgia and Alabama.

Anyone thinking the last two years represents the start of a permanent decline is in for a rude awakening.

Agreed. FSU still has amazing skill position talent, but it was impossible for that talent to utilize it's abilities when what was already going to be a sub-par OL is also decimated by injuries in preseason camp and in the early part of the season. If they are able to get just adequate OL play next season they can turn things around fairly quickly.

There's a ton of criticism from Nole fans that Blackman should have been playing ahead of Francois because he ran Taggart's system better, but IMO Taggart knew that Blackman wasn't going to last the season at his current size and with the state of the OL.

Whether FSU improves or not will depend upon recruiting. We'll have to see how Taggart does in perhaps the most highly competitive state in the nation for recruits. I'm not sure that Taggart has an established track record for recruiting, at least not as a head coach.

And you can site injuries to the OL if you like and their is substance to that claim, but the lack of attention to detail and subsequently the discipline of play were issues throughout this past year. I saw the same things under Butch Jones at Tennessee the past few years. You can't win consistently if you shoot yourselves in the foot half a dozen times a game. And that has nothing to do with the OL.

Does F.S.U. have the cachet to overcome its deficits? Absolutely. But so too did Miami and da U ain't back. It's better than it was under Richt, but how good is Richt?

Bowden was the last of an old line of head coaches who had loyalty to his school (well actually Snyder may be the last). Bowden made F.S.U. and it became his home and he wouldn't have moved if you held a gun to his head. Virtually all head coaches today are merely loyal to themselves. They can be hired away for a bit more money elsewhere.

F.S.U. post Bowden has now lost the heir apparent to a fatter check. The question now will be can they lure and keep a top notch head coach in a shrinking talent pool of coaching. I'm not so confident that it will be any more automatic than it now is anywhere else.

Alabama, a much more storied program had a deuce difficult time replacing Bear. When they found another home run coach they held onto him, but not because of his love of all things Bama, but because they pay him more than their competitors can afford, or are willing to pay.

That's where the paucity of revenue the ACC receives will have an impact. If you don't keep the best coaches you will never be able to duplicate the feats of Bowden and Schnellenberger/Johnson.

Look at your Clemson Tigers. You've always been able to recruit, but you haven't had the kind of guy would could develop that raw talent into a championship caliber team. Danny Ford did it and got clipped by jealous conference members. Then it was over 30 years before Dabo came through.

I'm sorry but there are no guarantees that FSU will back to championship status anytime soon, and there certainly isn't enough evidence to suggest Taggart is or isn't the guy.

So I'll wait and watch to see what happens. But this year is an indication of one thing that is crucial. They never improved on the mental mistakes that plagued their year and that's not a hopeful indicator. Smaller weaker players who get beaten by their opponents in games, can still play smart. And in F.S.U.'s case they never did.

Taggart can recruit. He's got a top 15 class right now and had the #11 class last year despite the late start from the coaching change. He brought in a few linemen last year and has one good one committed thus far.

One thing to remember is that you aren't going to change the culture of a program overnight. FSU was ill-disciplined under Fisher and honestly that's not going to change until there's no more Fisher players on the roster.

I've liked Willie Taggart since his WKU days. He had struggles there at first but you could see as he progressed the kids played hard for him and the system works. Same thing with USF, he didn't set the world on fire there to begin with but by the time he left for Oregon he'd built a solid program there. FSU will be back bowling next year and in contention for the Atlantic in 2020.

(11-26-2018 09:48 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  FSU is doing poorly because there's no reason that FSU should be doing great.

Look at where they're located geographically. It's a similar position to Fresno, ECU, or Washington State - a small town far away from the centers of power (even if it is the capital, it's one of the smallest state capitals relative to state size).

Look at where they are institutionally. 40 years ago, FSU was easily the 2nd best university in Florida. Today, UCF has caught up to them. USF passed them 10 years ago.

What are you talking about? No one in academia outside of Tampa and Orlando believes FSU has been passed by USF as an overall institution and certainly no one thinks UCF has caught up to them. You might be on to something if you are talking about just their medical schools, but I don't think you are. Being a giant diploma mill doesn't make a school good, neither does just being located in a big city.

Here's what make a football program good: the ability to hire good coaches, which are a very rare commodity, and then retain them. What is not changing is the pecking order and disparate athletic resources of FSU vs USF and UCF.

(11-24-2018 04:23 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  What was also remarkable was how successful FSU was in these games. It wasn't until game 15 that they lost. They started the streak with 14 wins and a tie.

Very true.

I watched every play of the one that ended in a tie.

The 1984 Citrus Bowl matched up FSU (7-3-1, Independent) against Georgia (7-4-0, 4-2-0 SEC). The game was played on the Saturday before Christmas (22nd) and Vince Dooley stated at the time that the scheduling-aspect (and the national NBC telecast) was a key factor in getting Georgia to participate. Payout was $600k per team, back when the media paid close attention to that sort of thing.

The NCAA allowed teams to use a kicking-tee on field goal attempts in those days. It was smaller than the one used on regular kick-offs, but still it helped. On the last play of the game with the score tied at 17, Georgia sent out Kevin Butler to attempt a game-winning 71-yard FG (it was either that or a 54-yard Hail Mary)). I honestly doubt there was any other kicker at the time, college or pro, who would’ve been given the chance to even attempt it in a real-game situation. But Dooley gave Butler the chance and he absolutely nailed it. Landed halfway between the uprights, about 1 yard short. It would’ve been good from 69 yards, maybe would’ve been good from 70. The video is still on YouTube.