(09-04-2018 10:55 AM)GRBRONCO Wrote:  

(09-04-2018 10:40 AM)george14 Wrote:  

(09-04-2018 10:24 AM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(09-04-2018 10:17 AM)george14 Wrote:  Same can be said for P5's playing G5's.

I can get on board with the 2 step below games. Aka: P5 vs FCS, and G5 vs D2. Then again, Nichols just beat Kansas. ND State has beaten Oregon State and ISU among others. Money from the big dogs is what keeps the pups alive.

I think there is a good deal of overlapping bwtween high G5 and low to mid P5. The same with high FCS and mid to low G5.

Right, I completely agree and that was my point. I get annoyed when G5 fans bash the FCS games yet always want their shot at the P5.

Last year, FCS was 9-89 over FBS while G5 over P5 was 11-57. Sure there is a difference, but I would say it's fairly negligible. It's a win % of 16 vs. 9.

I get annoyed when people act like G5 schools are not in the same division as P5 schools.

I get annoyed when people act like FCS and FBS are not in the same division....


FCS and FBS are both D-1. Yes, they are different subdivisions, but it's the same principle. G5 teams are essentially exempt from playing for a national title unless they have a completely stacked OOC and some good teams in their conference. The top FCS are beastly and would win the MAC. Teams like James Madison, NDSU, and SHSU are not just "FCS schools". Same with Boise State and TCU from years back aren't just "non-AQ schools". Those teams are great.

(09-04-2018 11:52 AM)george14 Wrote:  

(09-04-2018 10:55 AM)GRBRONCO Wrote:  

(09-04-2018 10:40 AM)george14 Wrote:  

(09-04-2018 10:24 AM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(09-04-2018 10:17 AM)george14 Wrote:  Same can be said for P5's playing G5's.

I can get on board with the 2 step below games. Aka: P5 vs FCS, and G5 vs D2. Then again, Nichols just beat Kansas. ND State has beaten Oregon State and ISU among others. Money from the big dogs is what keeps the pups alive.

I think there is a good deal of overlapping bwtween high G5 and low to mid P5. The same with high FCS and mid to low G5.

Right, I completely agree and that was my point. I get annoyed when G5 fans bash the FCS games yet always want their shot at the P5.

Last year, FCS was 9-89 over FBS while G5 over P5 was 11-57. Sure there is a difference, but I would say it's fairly negligible. It's a win % of 16 vs. 9.

I get annoyed when people act like G5 schools are not in the same division as P5 schools.

I get annoyed when people act like FCS and FBS are not in the same division....


FCS and FBS are both D-1. Yes, they are different subdivisions, but it's the same principle. G5 teams are essentially exempt from playing for a national title unless they have a completely stacked OOC and some good teams in their conference. The top FCS are beastly and would win the MAC. Teams like James Madison, NDSU, and SHSU are not just "FCS schools". Same with Boise State and TCU from years back aren't just "non-AQ schools". Those teams are great.

There are a select few that would win the MAC on certain years, on Most years though they are just 7 or 8 win MAC teams, not conference champs.

FCS playoff team 2011 UNH 22 points vs. 9-4 Toledo 58 points.
FCS playoff team 2012 CCU 24 points vs 9-4 Toledo 34 points.
FCS final 4 team 2013 EWU 21 points vs 7-5 Toledo 33 points.
FCS playoff team 2014 UNH 20 points vs 9-4 Toledo 54 points.
FCS playoff team 2016 Maine 3 points vs 9-4 Toledo 45 points.
FCS playoff team 2017 Elon 13 points vs 11-3 Toledo 47 points.

(09-04-2018 12:06 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(09-04-2018 11:52 AM)george14 Wrote:  I get annoyed when people act like FCS and FBS are not in the same division....


FCS and FBS are both D-1. Yes, they are different subdivisions, but it's the same principle. G5 teams are essentially exempt from playing for a national title unless they have a completely stacked OOC and some good teams in their conference. The top FCS are beastly and would win the MAC. Teams like James Madison, NDSU, and SHSU are not just "FCS schools". Same with Boise State and TCU from years back aren't just "non-AQ schools". Those teams are great.

There are a select few that would win the MAC on certain years, on Most years though they are just 7 or 8 win MAC teams, not conference champs.

FCS playoff team 2011 UNH 22 points vs. 9-4 Toledo 58 points.
FCS playoff team 2012 CCU 24 points vs 9-4 Toledo 34 points.
FCS final 4 team 2013 EWU 21 points vs 7-5 Toledo 33 points.
FCS playoff team 2014 UNH 20 points vs 9-4 Toledo 54 points.
FCS playoff team 2016 Maine 3 points vs 9-4 Toledo 45 points.
FCS playoff team 2017 Elon 13 points vs 11-3 Toledo 47 points.

2007 FCS Champs NDSU hammered MAC Champ CMU by 30 points
2010 FCS 3-8 ND lost to MAC runner-up NIU by 6
2013 FCS playoff team EIU lost to MAC Champ NIU by 4 points
2016 FCS 6-5 EIU beat MACE co-champs Miami
2017 FCS 3-8 URI lost to #2 MACW CMU in 3OT

I would say unless there is a very good MAC team, the top few FCS teams could win the conference. NDSU would eat our lunch every year. They routinely dominate teams and knock off P5 teams. I also think there are another few teams that would maybe lose 1 game but win the conference.

(09-04-2018 12:18 PM)george14 Wrote:  

(09-04-2018 12:06 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(09-04-2018 11:52 AM)george14 Wrote:  I get annoyed when people act like FCS and FBS are not in the same division....


FCS and FBS are both D-1. Yes, they are different subdivisions, but it's the same principle. G5 teams are essentially exempt from playing for a national title unless they have a completely stacked OOC and some good teams in their conference. The top FCS are beastly and would win the MAC. Teams like James Madison, NDSU, and SHSU are not just "FCS schools". Same with Boise State and TCU from years back aren't just "non-AQ schools". Those teams are great.

There are a select few that would win the MAC on certain years, on Most years though they are just 7 or 8 win MAC teams, not conference champs.

FCS playoff team 2011 UNH 22 points vs. 9-4 Toledo 58 points.
FCS playoff team 2012 CCU 24 points vs 9-4 Toledo 34 points.
FCS final 4 team 2013 EWU 21 points vs 7-5 Toledo 33 points.
FCS playoff team 2014 UNH 20 points vs 9-4 Toledo 54 points.
FCS playoff team 2016 Maine 3 points vs 9-4 Toledo 45 points.
FCS playoff team 2017 Elon 13 points vs 11-3 Toledo 47 points.

2007 FCS Champs NDSU hammered MAC Champ CMU by 30 points
2010 FCS 3-8 ND lost to MAC runner-up NIU by 6
2013 FCS playoff team EIU lost to MAC Champ NIU by 4 points
2016 FCS 6-5 EIU beat MACE co-champs Miami
2017 FCS 3-8 URI lost to #2 MACW CMU in 3OT

I would say unless there is a very good MAC team, the top few FCS teams could win the conference. NDSU would eat our lunch every year. They routinely dominate teams and knock off P5 teams. I also think there are another few teams that would maybe lose 1 game but win the conference.

For all of those nit picked games, mosts are still losses and there are more examples of the MAC team prevailing. BTW 2nd place MACEast team means about 7th place in the conference every other year over the past decade. I agree top tier FCS teams can compete but unless it's the highest 2 teams (recently JMU, and ND State), the MAC champion is better.

MAC CHMPIONS vs. FCS teams:
2010 Miami played none
2011 NIU 47 vs. (6-5) Cal Poly 30
2012 NIU 35 vs. (8-3) Tenn Martin 7
2013 BGSU 48 vs. (6-6) Murray State 7
2014 NIU 55 vs. (6-5) Presbyterian 3
2015 BGSU played none
2016 WMU 70 vs. (FCS playoff) NC Central 21
2017 TOLEDO 47 vs (FCS playoff) Elon 13

(09-04-2018 01:30 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  For all of those nit picked games, mosts are still losses and there are more examples of the MAC team prevailing. BTW 2nd place MACEast team means about 7th place in the conference every other year over the past decade. I agree top tier FCS teams can compete but unless it's the highest 2 teams (recently JMU, and ND State), the MAC champion is better.

MAC CHMPIONS vs. FCS teams:
2010 Miami played none
2011 NIU 47 vs. (6-5) Cal Poly 30
2012 NIU 35 vs. (8-3) Tenn Martin 7
2013 BGSU 48 vs. (6-6) Murray State 7
2014 NIU 55 vs. (6-5) Presbyterian 3
2015 BGSU played none
2016 WMU 70 vs. (FCS playoff) NC Central 21
2017 TOLEDO 47 vs (FCS playoff) Elon 13

That was my point, the top few FCS teams would win the MAC. Then, there are a few others that could possibly win it. None of those FCS teams were top FCS teams, so it doesn't really prove anything. Thankfully we have steered clear of NDSU, JMU, and SHSU.

(09-05-2018 08:48 AM)george14 Wrote:  

(09-04-2018 01:30 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  For all of those nit picked games, mosts are still losses and there are more examples of the MAC team prevailing. BTW 2nd place MACEast team means about 7th place in the conference every other year over the past decade. I agree top tier FCS teams can compete but unless it's the highest 2 teams (recently JMU, and ND State), the MAC champion is better.

MAC CHMPIONS vs. FCS teams:
2010 Miami played none
2011 NIU 47 vs. (6-5) Cal Poly 30
2012 NIU 35 vs. (8-3) Tenn Martin 7
2013 BGSU 48 vs. (6-6) Murray State 7
2014 NIU 55 vs. (6-5) Presbyterian 3
2015 BGSU played none
2016 WMU 70 vs. (FCS playoff) NC Central 21
2017 TOLEDO 47 vs (FCS playoff) Elon 13

That was my point, the top few FCS teams would win the MAC. Then, there are a few others that could possibly win it. None of those FCS teams were top FCS teams, so it doesn't really prove anything. Thankfully we have steered clear of NDSU, JMU, and SHSU.

Elon was #21 in 2017. Rockets(9-4) played #2 New Hampshire in 2014 and won 54-20. UT(7-5) beat #3 Eastern Washington in 2013, 33-21.
Most of NDSU's P-5 wins have been against bad teams. Their 2016 win over Iowa (8-5) 23-21 was a good one and the 2013 victory over Kansas State(8-5) 24-21 was a better one.

(09-05-2018 12:04 PM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  

(09-05-2018 08:48 AM)george14 Wrote:  

(09-04-2018 01:30 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  For all of those nit picked games, mosts are still losses and there are more examples of the MAC team prevailing. BTW 2nd place MACEast team means about 7th place in the conference every other year over the past decade. I agree top tier FCS teams can compete but unless it's the highest 2 teams (recently JMU, and ND State), the MAC champion is better.

MAC CHMPIONS vs. FCS teams:
2010 Miami played none
2011 NIU 47 vs. (6-5) Cal Poly 30
2012 NIU 35 vs. (8-3) Tenn Martin 7
2013 BGSU 48 vs. (6-6) Murray State 7
2014 NIU 55 vs. (6-5) Presbyterian 3
2015 BGSU played none
2016 WMU 70 vs. (FCS playoff) NC Central 21
2017 TOLEDO 47 vs (FCS playoff) Elon 13

That was my point, the top few FCS teams would win the MAC. Then, there are a few others that could possibly win it. None of those FCS teams were top FCS teams, so it doesn't really prove anything. Thankfully we have steered clear of NDSU, JMU, and SHSU.

Elon was #21 in 2017. Rockets(9-4) played #2 New Hampshire in 2014 and won 54-20. UT(7-5) beat #3 Eastern Washington in 2013, 33-21.
Most of NDSU's P-5 wins have been against bad teams. Their 2016 win over Iowa (8-5) 23-21 was a good one and the 2013 victory over Kansas State(8-5) 24-21 was a better one.

This is just going further down the rabbit hole.

Once again, NDSU hammered MAC Champ CMU in 2007. They beat 8-5 Iowa in 2016 and 8-5 KSU in 2013. It's not like they just beat 0-12 Kansas every year. And how many of their FBS wins were at home? I don't feel like looking, but I'm assuming it's 0.

Those App State teams from the mid 2000's were really damn good too. Sure, they could lose a game. Losing a game doesn't mean they wouldn't win the conference. Look at your Rockets last year, they were manhandled by Ohio but still won the MAC. NIU was crushed by CMU one year they won the MAC. I could go on and on. My point is, over the course of a season, I think the top couple FCS teams (especially NDSU) would win the MAC. That's all.

Not to mention, most of the FCS teams are playing these teams on the road traveling across the country.

I agree there are some real quality FCS programs out there now but I don't think any of them (NDSU, JMU included) just waltz in and win the MAC several years in a row like clockwork. They would absolutely contend and be right up there with the favorites but there is something to be said for playing FBS competition every week. It's the same argument that comes up when you take a G5 and put them in a P5 conference. Does that program have the depth to last week in and week out?

(09-05-2018 12:49 PM)SylRocketFan Wrote:  I agree there are some real quality FCS programs out there now but I don't think any of them (NDSU, JMU included) just waltz in and win the MAC several years in a row like clockwork. They would absolutely contend and be right up there with the favorites but there is something to be said for playing FBS competition every week. It's the same argument that comes up when you take a G5 and put them in a P5 conference. Does that program have the depth to last week in and week out?

And this was exactly my point when I started this conversation. Personally, I don't like when G5 fans complain about FCS games yet also complain about "not getting the shot at P5 teams".

FCS games should be here to stay along with P5 games. CMU beat OSU a few years back and ended up being a middle of the road MAC team. Week in and week out it's different, I agree. You are playing better teams those weeks opposed to lesser. It's purely a hypothetical.

(09-05-2018 12:47 PM)george14 Wrote:  

(09-05-2018 12:04 PM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  

(09-05-2018 08:48 AM)george14 Wrote:  

(09-04-2018 01:30 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  For all of those nit picked games, mosts are still losses and there are more examples of the MAC team prevailing. BTW 2nd place MACEast team means about 7th place in the conference every other year over the past decade. I agree top tier FCS teams can compete but unless it's the highest 2 teams (recently JMU, and ND State), the MAC champion is better.

MAC CHMPIONS vs. FCS teams:
2010 Miami played none
2011 NIU 47 vs. (6-5) Cal Poly 30
2012 NIU 35 vs. (8-3) Tenn Martin 7
2013 BGSU 48 vs. (6-6) Murray State 7
2014 NIU 55 vs. (6-5) Presbyterian 3
2015 BGSU played none
2016 WMU 70 vs. (FCS playoff) NC Central 21
2017 TOLEDO 47 vs (FCS playoff) Elon 13

That was my point, the top few FCS teams would win the MAC. Then, there are a few others that could possibly win it. None of those FCS teams were top FCS teams, so it doesn't really prove anything. Thankfully we have steered clear of NDSU, JMU, and SHSU.

Elon was #21 in 2017. Rockets(9-4) played #2 New Hampshire in 2014 and won 54-20. UT(7-5) beat #3 Eastern Washington in 2013, 33-21.
Most of NDSU's P-5 wins have been against bad teams. Their 2016 win over Iowa (8-5) 23-21 was a good one and the 2013 victory over Kansas State(8-5) 24-21 was a better one.

This is just going further down the rabbit hole.

Once again, NDSU hammered MAC Champ CMU in 2007. They beat 8-5 Iowa in 2016 and 8-5 KSU in 2013. It's not like they just beat 0-12 Kansas every year. And how many of their FBS wins were at home? I don't feel like looking, but I'm assuming it's 0.

Those App State teams from the mid 2000's were really damn good too. Sure, they could lose a game. Losing a game doesn't mean they wouldn't win the conference. Look at your Rockets last year, they were manhandled by Ohio but still won the MAC. NIU was crushed by CMU one year they won the MAC. I could go on and on. My point is, over the course of a season, I think the top couple FCS teams (especially NDSU) would win the MAC. That's all.

Not to mention, most of the FCS teams are playing these teams on the road traveling across the country.

MAC Champ CMU got beat by a 4-8 EMU in 2007.Maybe the worst year for the MAC West since they went to Divisional play.
CMU 8-6
Ball State 7-6
Toledo 5-7
WMU 5-7
EMU 4-8
NIU 2-10

1.) Top FCS team is not better then the MAC Champ most years. That is silly. UT last year, 2016 WMU, the NIU dynasty, the BGSU Falcon Fast teams. I don't see it. They could definitely compete, would definitely have a winning season. But win the Conference? Doubtful. Those FCS teams that knock off good P5 teams are few and far between.

2.) G5 should play FCS

3.) Big 10 does have a ban on scheduling FCS. I don't think the SEC does

3.) FBS vs FCS games are NEVER played at the FCS stadium

4.) G5 vs DII would be silly.

(09-06-2018 08:00 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  1.) Top FCS team is not better then the MAC Champ most years. That is silly. UT last year, 2016 WMU, the NIU dynasty, the BGSU Falcon Fast teams. I don't see it. They could definitely compete, would definitely have a winning season. But win the Conference? Doubtful. Those FCS teams that knock off good P5 teams are few and far between.

2.) G5 should play FCS

3.) Big 10 does have a ban on scheduling FCS. I don't think the SEC does

3.) FBS vs FCS games are NEVER played at the FCS stadium

4.) G5 vs DII would be silly.

I agree with 1, 2, 3, 4... The SEC does that week 11 or whatever weird FCS game before rivalry week.

(09-06-2018 08:00 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  1.) Top FCS team is not better then the MAC Champ most years. That is silly. UT last year, 2016 WMU, the NIU dynasty, the BGSU Falcon Fast teams. I don't see it. They could definitely compete, would definitely have a winning season. But win the Conference? Doubtful. Those FCS teams that knock off good P5 teams are few and far between.

2.) G5 should play FCS

3.) Big 10 does have a ban on scheduling FCS. I don't think the SEC does

3.) FBS vs FCS games are NEVER played at the FCS stadium

4.) G5 vs DII would be silly.

1) I'm sorry but if you don't think NDSU would win the MAC, it leads me to believe you don't watch NDSU. The 2009 Chips, 2016 Broncos, 2012 Huskies? Ok maybe not, but the 2013 Huskies for instance only beat EIU by 4 points. They were not the best FCS team...NDSU was. I think they would have won the MAC handily. I think the top FCS team would win the MAC and maybe some others.

2) Agreed

3) That is not true. Army played Yale a few years back at Yale. I'm sure it's happened quite a few times, just not common.

4) Agreed

(09-07-2018 10:20 AM)george14 Wrote:  

(09-06-2018 08:00 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  1.) Top FCS team is not better then the MAC Champ most years. That is silly. UT last year, 2016 WMU, the NIU dynasty, the BGSU Falcon Fast teams. I don't see it. They could definitely compete, would definitely have a winning season. But win the Conference? Doubtful. Those FCS teams that knock off good P5 teams are few and far between.

2.) G5 should play FCS

3.) Big 10 does have a ban on scheduling FCS. I don't think the SEC does

3.) FBS vs FCS games are NEVER played at the FCS stadium

4.) G5 vs DII would be silly.

1) I'm sorry but if you don't think NDSU would win the MAC, it leads me to believe you don't watch NDSU. The 2009 Chips, 2016 Broncos, 2012 Huskies? Ok maybe not, but the 2013 Huskies for instance only beat EIU by 4 points. They were not the best FCS team...NDSU was. I think they would have won the MAC handily. I think the top FCS team would win the MAC and maybe some others.

2) Agreed

3) That is not true. Army played Yale a few years back at Yale. I'm sure it's happened quite a few times, just not common.

4) Agreed

Yea, but the 2013 Huskies didn't win the MAC either. BG did.

(09-07-2018 11:18 AM)NIU007 Wrote:  Yea, but the 2013 Huskies didn't win the MAC either. BG did.

Good call, I was at that game haha. I believe that would have been another BCS bowl had they won?

(09-07-2018 11:22 AM)george14 Wrote:  

(09-07-2018 11:18 AM)NIU007 Wrote:  Yea, but the 2013 Huskies didn't win the MAC either. BG did.

Good call, I was at that game haha. I believe that would have been another BCS bowl had they won?

Maybe.

The 2014 Huskies won the MAC though, and they were a bit fortunate that year, down year for the MAC. Toledo and BG both had backup QBs in when we played them.

(09-07-2018 11:33 AM)NIU007 Wrote:  

(09-07-2018 11:22 AM)george14 Wrote:  

(09-07-2018 11:18 AM)NIU007 Wrote:  Yea, but the 2013 Huskies didn't win the MAC either. BG did.

Good call, I was at that game haha. I believe that would have been another BCS bowl had they won?

Maybe.

The 2014 Huskies won the MAC though, and they were a bit fortunate that year, down year for the MAC. Toledo and BG both had backup QBs in when we played them.

2014 NIU and 2017 Toledo IMO were the worst champions of the league since 2008. 2016 had possibly the worst entire conference but best Champ since at least 2012 NIU. Probably further back.

2012, 2013 and 2015 were very deep years for the league. In 2015 the Champion was not the best IMO

(09-07-2018 01:00 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(09-07-2018 11:33 AM)NIU007 Wrote:  Maybe.

The 2014 Huskies won the MAC though, and they were a bit fortunate that year, down year for the MAC. Toledo and BG both had backup QBs in when we played them.

2014 NIU and 2017 Toledo IMO were the worst champions of the league since 2008. 2016 had possibly the worst entire conference but best Champ since at least 2012 NIU. Probably further back.

2012, 2013 and 2015 were very deep years for the league. In 2015 the Champion was not the best IMO

I think we all know Toledo has made a living (pre 2017) of being a MAC favorite but not winning the conference. Toledo usually performs well OOC too. 2015 was a mess all around.

Southern Illinois was the #1 1-AA team in 2007 and barely beat a bad 2007 NIU team. In fact, they needed a miraculous comeback in the 4th quarter just to beat us.

Don’t forget the advantage IAA schools have over the MAC. They get transfers from power schools that are eligible to play right away instead of sitting out a year transferring to another DIA program like the MAC. While MAC schools still get the occasional transfer from the big program, most want to play right away and also realize if they’re good enough for the next level they will be found in places like Delaware, North Dakota etc...