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Intellectual_Brutality Offline
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Hello old friend (ESPN Bottom 10)
08-27-2018 05:49 PM
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junrice Offline
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RE: Hello old friend (ESPN Bottom 10)
Could we celebrate for that?

Fock ESPN, This is a good excuse to cancel my espn+ subscription right now.
08-27-2018 06:39 PM
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RE: Hello old friend (ESPN Bottom 10)
I think this was prior to the Prairie View game
08-27-2018 07:19 PM
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Seventyniner Offline
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RE: Hello old friend (ESPN Bottom 10)
I didn't realize that Liberty and NM State were both FBS independents, much less that they play each other twice this season. Could be an interesting case study for those who have recommended that Rice follow that path. The independent part I mean!
08-29-2018 09:30 PM
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Antarius Offline
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RE: Hello old friend (ESPN Bottom 10)
Are we minute Rice because historically that's the point by which we have used all our time outs?
08-29-2018 09:52 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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RE: Hello old friend (ESPN Bottom 10)
(08-29-2018 09:30 PM)Seventyniner Wrote:  I didn't realize that Liberty and NM State were both FBS independents, much less that they play each other twice this season. Could be an interesting case study for those who have recommended that Rice follow that path. The independent part I mean!

In my scenario, we still played UTEP, UNT, UTSA, UH and at least one Service academy. NM State seem like an obvious add. Why not UNM. ULL or Troy or Tx State... an Auburn/UVA/BYU type team (p5 or close)

Note that they play the big boys late in the season. We've always been told that they don't have openings and we'd have to play them 'pre-season'.

Liberty plays
ODU, Army, UNT, Norfolk State, New Mexico, New Mexico State, Troy, UMass, UVA, Auburn and NM State again

NM State plays Liberty Twice obviously,Wyoming, Minn, Utah State, UTEP, ULL, Ga So, Tx St, Alcorn St and BYU


I think we've played every one of those schools at one point or another and were or are in conference with many of them.

IOW, I think it's far more do-able than we've been lead to believe
08-29-2018 10:19 PM
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WRCisforgotten79 Offline
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RE: Hello old friend (ESPN Bottom 10)
(08-29-2018 10:19 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(08-29-2018 09:30 PM)Seventyniner Wrote:  I didn't realize that Liberty and NM State were both FBS independents, much less that they play each other twice this season. Could be an interesting case study for those who have recommended that Rice follow that path. The independent part I mean!

In my scenario, we still played UTEP, UNT, UTSA, UH and at least one Service academy. NM State seem like an obvious add. Why not UNM. ULL or Troy or Tx State... an Auburn/UVA/BYU type team (p5 or close)

Note that they play the big boys late in the season. We've always been told that they don't have openings and we'd have to play them 'pre-season'.

Liberty plays
ODU, Army, UNT, Norfolk State, New Mexico, New Mexico State, Troy, UMass, UVA, Auburn and NM State again

NM State plays Liberty Twice obviously,Wyoming, Minn, Utah State, UTEP, ULL, Ga So, Tx St, Alcorn St and BYU


I think we've played every one of those schools at one point or another and were or are in conference with many of them.

IOW, I think it's far more do-able than we've been lead to believe

Except that we'd have to find another conference that's even worse than C-USA. For other sports, it would crush what little recruiting ability we have left.
08-29-2018 10:59 PM
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Intellectual_Brutality Offline
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RE: Hello old friend (ESPN Bottom 10)
(08-29-2018 10:19 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(08-29-2018 09:30 PM)Seventyniner Wrote:  I didn't realize that Liberty and NM State were both FBS independents, much less that they play each other twice this season. Could be an interesting case study for those who have recommended that Rice follow that path. The independent part I mean!

In my scenario, we still played UTEP, UNT, UTSA, UH and at least one Service academy. NM State seem like an obvious add. Why not UNM. ULL or Troy or Tx State... an Auburn/UVA/BYU type team (p5 or close)

Note that they play the big boys late in the season. We've always been told that they don't have openings and we'd have to play them 'pre-season'.

Liberty plays
ODU, Army, UNT, Norfolk State, New Mexico, New Mexico State, Troy, UMass, UVA, Auburn and NM State again

NM State plays Liberty Twice obviously,Wyoming, Minn, Utah State, UTEP, ULL, Ga So, Tx St, Alcorn St and BYU


I think we've played every one of those schools at one point or another and were or are in conference with many of them.

IOW, I think it's far more do-able than we've been lead to believe

Very interesting. Those schedules don't look any worse than ours
08-29-2018 11:01 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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RE: Hello old friend (ESPN Bottom 10)
(08-29-2018 10:19 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(08-29-2018 09:30 PM)Seventyniner Wrote:  I didn't realize that Liberty and NM State were both FBS independents, much less that they play each other twice this season. Could be an interesting case study for those who have recommended that Rice follow that path. The independent part I mean!
In my scenario, we still played UTEP, UNT, UTSA, UH and at least one Service academy. NM State seem like an obvious add. Why not UNM. ULL or Troy or Tx State... an Auburn/UVA/BYU type team (p5 or close)
Note that they play the big boys late in the season. We've always been told that they don't have openings and we'd have to play them 'pre-season'.
Liberty plays
ODU, Army, UNT, Norfolk State, New Mexico, New Mexico State, Troy, UMass, UVA, Auburn and NM State again
NM State plays Liberty Twice obviously,Wyoming, Minn, Utah State, UTEP, ULL, Ga So, Tx St, Alcorn St and BYU
I think we've played every one of those schools at one point or another and were or are in conference with many of them.
IOW, I think it's far more do-able than we've been lead to believe

Couple of points:

One, that's probably about the best schedule either can get. I don't see where either could do any better. And even so, they have to play each other twice to get a full schedule. The Liberty-Auburn slot (and, without checking, presumably the NMSU-BYU slot) are basically equivalent to our LSU game this year--weekend before a rivalry game, bring in a warm body. We can do tat every year with some SEC school--and probably should--right where we are in CUSA. Good luck getting that game in Houston ever.

Two, that's football. Scheduling other sports, particularly non-revenue sports, and even more particularly women's non-revenue sports, is orders of magnitude more difficult. I can see lots of late Wednesday night flights home from Des Moines or Lynchburg or Laramie.

I still think the best place for us to aim is getting to where we dominate CUSA and are competitive in multiple OOC games with P5's. That's where TCU got on its way back up, and from there the options opened up. I think if we got there options would open up for us, and if we don't they won't. I'm not sure that if we got there we wouldn't decide that was a good place to stay. We are not absolutely dependent on making money, but I think 3 P5's with 1 at home, plus UH and a CUSA schedule we can dominate, would produce a pretty decent revenue stream. And we would carve out a unique niche--great academic school, exposure against the big boys, and a conference we can win and go to a bowl every year--that I think we could recruit to. If SEC or XII invited us, we'd probably go, and should, but I don't see that we'd have to. And I don't see any such invite without getting to that point first.

Maybe think of it as Navy in football, Gonzaga in basketball, and what Rice was for years in baseball. It's not easy--good things seldom are--but possible. And I think the way to anything better goes through there.

We can go 8-4 in CUSA and be conference champions and go to a bowl--if it's the right 8 (9 including championship game) and the right 4. We can go 8-4 as an independent and be irrelevant.
(This post was last modified: 08-30-2018 12:15 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
08-29-2018 11:25 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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RE: Hello old friend (ESPN Bottom 10)
(08-29-2018 10:59 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  Except that we'd have to find another conference that's even worse than C-USA. For other sports, it would crush what little recruiting ability we have left.

Debatable.

Most conferences have schools that don't play all sports

Pac12, B1G, Big 12 and ACC all seem to have room for 1 baseball team.... ACC has room for women's soccer (replacing Ga Tech).

CUSA seems to have some room already in Track, Volleyball, Swimming, Golf and Cross Country. Basketball may be the only issue. That's a potentially big issue, but it could also open some opportunities. Maybe even the big east which only has 10 members would expand to 12 or 14, affiliate only for basketball... i.e. no historical shares and only 'what you kill' of current shares. Would still be vastly better than what we have now. ODU and others are affiliate members of the Big East in a couple of sports

We might find it easier to be a non-football member of a p5.

The alternative is to keep CUSA, but eliminate the cross-over game as I've suggested before... especially since we'd keep the lions share of our division anyway.

That would fill 6 games... mostly with the people already on my list....

but the question is, what do we get out
08-29-2018 11:55 PM
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RE: Hello old friend (ESPN Bottom 10)
Yes, let's emulate Liberty. We should aspire to be them.

Is Liberty looking for a conference, or is it happy to be independent?
08-30-2018 07:14 AM
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RE: Hello old friend (ESPN Bottom 10)
(08-30-2018 07:14 AM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  Yes, let's emulate Liberty. We should aspire to be them.

Is Liberty looking for a conference, or is it happy to be independent?

Perhaps we could form the Unconventional Wisdom Conference with Liberty and NMSU and just play them 6 times each season?
08-30-2018 07:33 AM
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RE: Hello old friend (ESPN Bottom 10)
(08-30-2018 07:14 AM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  Yes, let's emulate Liberty. We should aspire to be them.

Is Liberty looking for a conference, or is it happy to be independent?

Pretty certain they'd like to be in a conference. They've moved most of their sports to the Atlantic Sun, starting this year. Football will remain an independent, and until they find a home for football, they'll probably stay in the Atlantic Sun. I'm not sure there's a FBS conference that would take them as football-only, but never say never. They've got the former Baylor AD as their AD, so they're aiming high.
08-30-2018 08:43 AM
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RE: Hello old friend (ESPN Bottom 10)
C-USA rejected an offer from Liberty to join the conference in 2016. At the time it was reported that Liberty offered cash to the Conference estimated at $2MM (but some estimated the total package as an amount closer to $24MM). Liberty is paying a substantial amount for games (including last year when they defeated Baylor). They are reported to have offered ODU $1.35MM to play the home game this year. They have offered USM and others in excess of $500M for home games.
08-30-2018 10:56 AM
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RE: Hello old friend (ESPN Bottom 10)
(08-30-2018 10:56 AM)Houston Owl Wrote:  C-USA rejected an offer from Liberty to join the conference in 2016. At the time it was reported that Liberty offered cash to the Conference estimated at $2MM (but some estimated the total package as an amount closer to $24MM). Liberty is paying a substantial amount for games (including last year when they defeated Baylor). They are reported to have offered ODU $1.35MM to play the home game this year. They have offered USM and others in excess of $500M for home games.

Guess they tithe alums
08-30-2018 11:11 AM
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RE: Hello old friend (ESPN Bottom 10)
(08-30-2018 08:43 AM)gsloth Wrote:  
(08-30-2018 07:14 AM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  Yes, let's emulate Liberty. We should aspire to be them.

Is Liberty looking for a conference, or is it happy to be independent?

Pretty certain they'd like to be in a conference. They've moved most of their sports to the Atlantic Sun, starting this year. Football will remain an independent, and until they find a home for football, they'll probably stay in the Atlantic Sun. I'm not sure there's a FBS conference that would take them as football-only, but never say never. They've got the former Baylor AD as their AD, so they're aiming high.


I think if you look at their schedule vs ours, we somewhat are emulating Liberty... playing or having played many of the same teams.

From this years schedule, throw out USM, FIU and ODU... replace with Troy, ULL, UNM, NMSU or anyone else on their schedules.

My problem with CUSA is that every year there are at least two and often 3 CONFERENCE games that are difficult/not interesting to 'visiting' fans (whether that be us or them). That's 25-38% of our CONFERENCE games that are financial AND reputation drains.

We've got enough problems without that being added.

I'm not 'all-in' on going independent... I'm merely saying that we get zero financially from CUSA, so what can we do to eliminate 'drains' from CUSA? Going independent is a last resort... most extreme possibility... but if (as an example) UNT, UTEP and UTSA move to the MWC or something, then I'd prefer it to being in 'what remains'.
(This post was last modified: 08-30-2018 11:47 AM by Hambone10.)
08-30-2018 11:29 AM
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RE: Hello old friend (ESPN Bottom 10)
(08-30-2018 11:29 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(08-30-2018 08:43 AM)gsloth Wrote:  
(08-30-2018 07:14 AM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  Yes, let's emulate Liberty. We should aspire to be them.

Is Liberty looking for a conference, or is it happy to be independent?

Pretty certain they'd like to be in a conference. They've moved most of their sports to the Atlantic Sun, starting this year. Football will remain an independent, and until they find a home for football, they'll probably stay in the Atlantic Sun. I'm not sure there's a FBS conference that would take them as football-only, but never say never. They've got the former Baylor AD as their AD, so they're aiming high.


I think if you look at their schedule vs ours, we somewhat are emulating Liberty... playing or having played many of the same teams.

From this years schedule, throw out USM, FIU and ODU... replace with Troy, ULL, UNM, NMSU or anyone else on their schedules.

My problem with CUSA is that every year there are at least two and often 3 CONFERENCE games that are difficult/not interesting to 'visiting' fans (whether that be us or them). That's 25-38% of our CONFERENCE games that are financial AND reputation drains.

We've got enough problems without that being added

Re: "financial drain", see above on Liberty's costs to get the schedule they have.

One of the prime advantages of conference membership - one of the main reasons independents other than Notre Dame want to be in a conference - is that your conference mates have to play you whether they want to or not, and they can't charge you for it. The proponents of Rice independence invariably try to talk around this elephant in the room.
08-30-2018 11:35 AM
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RE: Hello old friend (ESPN Bottom 10)
Liberty's not really a useful comparator for how independence could go for Rice. They didn't choose independence as a way to launch themselves to greater relevancy and ultimately a P5 conference (which is what I envision Rice could aim for). They would have been content with a regional G5 conference (CUSA or Sun Belt), but their nature and mission are controversial to the public schools and that has kept them out. Rice would face no such barrier in marketing itself to any conference.

They (and NMSU, and UMass) are also choosing to play schedules that basically look like a typical G5 schedule: 2-3 P5 or equivalents, and the rest G5s. Again, not what I would advocate for Rice, since we obviously we already have that. To me, the point of independence would be to upgrade our schedule to approximate that of a typical P5 school -- since in my view that's what we'd be auditioning for. We'd keep 3-4 lower-visibility games (NMSU, Liberty, UMass, other G5s of the ilk we play in CUSA now anyway), and aim to schedule 8-9 higher-visibility games (P5s, BYU, Army and the other academies, ND, UH, G5 state flagships, etc.). Attendance and interest in Rice games goes up, recruiting goes up...and if we can do this for a solid 5+ years, then we should have some attractive conference options open up to us.

A key to getting those P5 opponents would be for Rice to make the case to the P5s that we should be considered the equivalent of a P5 for purposes of satisfying those conferences' mandates that teams play a certain number of P5 schools out of conference. I believe the academies have been given this deal, along with Cincinnati, UConn, and perhaps others. Obviously in recent years this case has gotten harder for us to make from a competitiveness standpoint (an entirely foreseeable consequence of continuing to ignore that Rice folks simply will not abide this conference), but we still may be able to draw on past relationships, legacy points, etc., and make it happen.

Finding another conference(s) to host the rest of our sports would be doable. Baseball could likely write its own ticket, and if basketball and the rest had to go someplace like the Summit, I fail to see how that is materially worse than CUSA.

The remaining objections are usually TV, bowls, and cost. Our current TV revenue and exposure for conference games is negligible and literally couldn't be missed. A beefed-up schedule gets us on TV more for away games, I'm pretty sure we could sell our high-profile home games, and we can stream the others which may be the future anyway. Bowl tie-ins might be hard to come by (especially at 6-6) but I don't see this as an insurmountable issue.

And as for cost, well, I think to do this right would absolutely require a major increase in investment -- which hopefully would pay dividends 5-10 years later with P5 readmission. I'll grant there is no sense in trying to do this on the cheap, which of course is how we see cash-strapped public schools like NMSU & UMass trying it (and Idaho decided against trying). So, let's not emulate them.
08-30-2018 01:57 PM
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Antarius Offline
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RE: Hello old friend (ESPN Bottom 10)
(08-30-2018 01:57 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  Liberty's not really a useful comparator for how independence could go for Rice. They didn't choose independence as a way to launch themselves to greater relevancy and ultimately a P5 conference (which is what I envision Rice could aim for). They would have been content with a regional G5 conference (CUSA or Sun Belt), but their nature and mission are controversial to the public schools and that has kept them out. Rice would face no such barrier in marketing itself to any conference.

They (and NMSU, and UMass) are also choosing to play schedules that basically look like a typical G5 schedule: 2-3 P5 or equivalents, and the rest G5s. Again, not what I would advocate for Rice, since we obviously we already have that. To me, the point of independence would be to upgrade our schedule to approximate that of a typical P5 school -- since in my view that's what we'd be auditioning for. We'd keep 3-4 lower-visibility games (NMSU, Liberty, UMass, other G5s of the ilk we play in CUSA now anyway), and aim to schedule 8-9 higher-visibility games (P5s, BYU, Army and the other academies, ND, UH, G5 state flagships, etc.). Attendance and interest in Rice games goes up, recruiting goes up...and if we can do this for a solid 5+ years, then we should have some attractive conference options open up to us.

A key to getting those P5 opponents would be for Rice to make the case to the P5s that we should be considered the equivalent of a P5 for purposes of satisfying those conferences' mandates that teams play a certain number of P5 schools out of conference. I believe the academies have been given this deal, along with Cincinnati, UConn, and perhaps others. Obviously in recent years this case has gotten harder for us to make from a competitiveness standpoint (an entirely foreseeable consequence of continuing to ignore that Rice folks simply will not abide this conference), but we still may be able to draw on past relationships, legacy points, etc., and make it happen.

Finding another conference(s) to host the rest of our sports would be doable. Baseball could likely write its own ticket, and if basketball and the rest had to go someplace like the Summit, I fail to see how that is materially worse than CUSA.

The remaining objections are usually TV, bowls, and cost. Our current TV revenue and exposure for conference games is negligible and literally couldn't be missed. A beefed-up schedule gets us on TV more for away games, I'm pretty sure we could sell our high-profile home games, and we can stream the others which may be the future anyway. Bowl tie-ins might be hard to come by (especially at 6-6) but I don't see this as an insurmountable issue.

And as for cost, well, I think to do this right would absolutely require a major increase in investment -- which hopefully would pay dividends 5-10 years later with P5 readmission. I'll grant there is no sense in trying to do this on the cheap, which of course is how we see cash-strapped public schools like NMSU & UMass trying it (and Idaho decided against trying). So, let's not emulate them.

Good post.

Re: the bolded piece, we just saw a multi-year case study on how little bowls means. Foregoing crappy bowls in the short term shouldn't be a deal breaker. They are glorified participation trophies... and given how little impact they have, I'd hesitate to continue using even the word glorified.
08-30-2018 02:16 PM
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RE: Hello old friend (ESPN Bottom 10)
(08-30-2018 10:56 AM)Houston Owl Wrote:  They have offered USM and others in excess of $500M for home games.

That's a decent payday. Couple of those and you're a billionaire!
08-30-2018 02:18 PM
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