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(08-11-2018 08:22 PM)brovol Wrote:  And as to whether the word socialism scares me; yes it does, but what scares me more is the fact that such a high percent of Americans now don't understand why socialism is scary. Democrats are clever propagandists. They use positive words like "progressive policies " to describe horrible things, and the dim witted smile ant think it's a good thing. Socialism is something that should scare everyone. If you understood you would agree.

I'm curious what exactly you think these "horrible" things are?

(08-13-2018 11:16 AM)HaymondAtThe4 Wrote:  Do you believe that the principle of non-aggression means that all taxation is bad?

ABSOLUTELY.

If I (or anyone in this group) used threats/coercion/force to confiscate your property or possessions, you'd see it for what it was

Quote:At the foundation of all this is a moral question.

I agree with this (your words). 100%

Extortion does not somehow (magically) become "moral" because the state issues itself the right to practice such behavior.

"Mob rule" is not a valid moral philosophy/justification, IMHO.

Quote:And if so, should all taxation, and therefore all public institutions, end? And if not, what, in your view, is the logic that makes firehouses, K-12 schools, and water treatment facilities so drastically different from universal healthcare?

I already answer this (see post dated 8/11/18 5:59 pm)

I find it hilarious that I spent two days getting talked down to because my tepid defense of Bernie's democratic socialism was seen as radical, idealistic, and untenable in the real-world, meanwhile this dude's over here talking about how taxation is theft and public schools shouldn't exist. On a message board full of alumni from an awesome public university no less! You boomers are a trip man.

I respect Bernie Sanders as a man of principle and an honest, ethical person. He, not Clinton, was the legit Demcrat nominee in 2016, according to former DNC Chair Donna Brazil. Clinton took the nomination illegally.

That said, there are four fundamental truths:

1) when you tax something, you will get less of it in the long term
2) socialism redistributes wealth, but is silent on how to create it (which is a BIG problem when you consider Truth #1).
3) the money a person earns belongs to them, NOT the government.
4) taxes are the price we willingly pay to live in a civil society and are necessary.

Cheers!

(08-13-2018 10:47 PM)HaymondAtThe4 Wrote:  I find it hilarious that I spent two days getting talked down to because my tepid defense of Bernie's democratic socialism was seen as radical, idealistic, and untenable in the real-world

LOL.

Dramatic much?

Nobody "talked you down". In fact, it has been just the opposite.

YOU came on here lecturing US about the need for universal healthcare.

Making emotional appeals to themes like "morality" and "intrinsic human worth"

The implication being that those who disagree with you support ideas that aren't moral, and don't value or recognize the worth of others.

So I engaged you ON YOUR TERMS.

I pointed out ways that universal healthcare isn't "moral", and ways in which the funding of the system ignores basic human rights and worth.

I appealed to the non-aggression principle. A milk-toast statement that's fairly close to "the golden rule".

And your best defense is to create straw horses, use labels, and end with "I find it hilarious"...

And then pick you your marbles

You can’t go back to pretending the non-aggression thing is milquetoast when we know you’d prefer the public school system abolished.

Bernie Sanders is popular for the same reason Donald Trump is.

He tells a significant portion of the population what they want to hear, what will benefit them.

(08-14-2018 08:52 AM)HaymondAtThe4 Wrote:  You can’t go back to pretending the non-aggression thing is milquetoast

I'm not "going back"

Nor am I pretending

Quote:"No one may threaten or commit violence ('aggress') against another man's person or property."....Murray Rothbard

It's where I've always been :)

I know

Scary stuff ("radical") to people who feel the need to impose their will on others.

(08-14-2018 03:35 PM)MajorHoople Wrote:  Bernie Sanders is popular for the same reason Donald Trump is.

He tells a significant portion of the population what they want to hear, what will benefit them.

Individualism, free markets, economic growth and development?

My thinking is you start from where you are, not from a theoretical construct.

So incremental progress.

The question in that scenario is how to spend “our” budget.

Without too many specifics my preference is infrastructure, and development of human capital.

Less spending on cops, prisons, and the defense establishment.

The money spent in the Middle East adventures is said to be approaching 3 trillion. We have the largest percentage prison population in the world, very expensive.

For 3 trillion you get all new roads and bridges, new schools, universal health care, support for universities, replace the outdated electrical grid, etc.

That makes more sense to me. We don’t have to call it socialism. I call it common sense.

(08-16-2018 07:55 AM)Dirty Ernie Wrote:  My thinking is you start from where you are, not from a theoretical construct.

So incremental progress.

The question in that scenario is how to spend “our” budget.

Without too many specifics my preference is infrastructure, and development of human capital.

Less spending on cops, prisons, and the defense establishment.

The money spent in the Middle East adventures is said to be approaching 3 trillion. We have the largest percentage prison population in the world, very expensive.

For 3 trillion you get all new roads and bridges, new schools, universal health care, support for universities, replace the outdated electrical grid, etc.

That makes more sense to me. We don’t have to call it socialism. I call it common sense.

So, in summary, you believe we should use the "federal" budget mostly to fund things the federal government was never intended for, and not funding the exact reasons we created a federal government.

(08-16-2018 12:15 PM)brovol Wrote:  

(08-16-2018 07:55 AM)Dirty Ernie Wrote:  My thinking is you start from where you are, not from a theoretical construct.

So incremental progress.

The question in that scenario is how to spend “our” budget.

Without too many specifics my preference is infrastructure, and development of human capital.

Less spending on cops, prisons, and the defense establishment.

The money spent in the Middle East adventures is said to be approaching 3 trillion. We have the largest percentage prison population in the world, very expensive.

For 3 trillion you get all new roads and bridges, new schools, universal health care, support for universities, replace the outdated electrical grid, etc.

That makes more sense to me. We don’t have to call it socialism. I call it common sense.

So, in summary, you believe we should use the "federal" budget mostly to fund things the federal government was never intended for, and not funding the exact reasons we created a federal government.

You are correct that I think the focus and emphasis should change. I’m less about philosophy and more about shifting our focus to taking care of stuff, building for the future. Like I said, education, good childhood development, good universities, science based planning and decision making, social justice, good infrastructure. If the founding fathers were here, I think they would agree.

Quote:I’m less about philosophy and more about shifting our focus to taking care of stuff, building for the future. Like I said, education, good childhood development, good universities, science based planning and decision making, social justice, good infrastructure.

Ernie

You couldn't believe any of this ^^^, without being VERY MUCH "about philosophy".

(08-16-2018 01:17 PM)Dirty Ernie Wrote:  

(08-16-2018 12:15 PM)brovol Wrote:  

(08-16-2018 07:55 AM)Dirty Ernie Wrote:  My thinking is you start from where you are, not from a theoretical construct.

So incremental progress.

The question in that scenario is how to spend “our” budget.

Without too many specifics my preference is infrastructure, and development of human capital.

Less spending on cops, prisons, and the defense establishment.

The money spent in the Middle East adventures is said to be approaching 3 trillion. We have the largest percentage prison population in the world, very expensive.

For 3 trillion you get all new roads and bridges, new schools, universal health care, support for universities, replace the outdated electrical grid, etc.

That makes more sense to me. We don’t have to call it socialism. I call it common sense.

So, in summary, you believe we should use the "federal" budget mostly to fund things the federal government was never intended for, and not funding the exact reasons we created a federal government.

You are correct that I think the focus and emphasis should change. I’m less about philosophy and more about shifting our focus to taking care of stuff, building for the future. Like I said, education, good childhood development, good universities, science based planning and decision making, social justice, good infrastructure. If the founding fathers were here, I think they would agree.

The founding fathers would have planned another revolution if they thought you and others who think this way we're about to do exactly opposite of what America was specifically designed to be. They risked their lives to create individual liberty and freedom from government deciding what to do with "earned" income and property, LIMITED government, which does NOT "provide" for it's citizens, but rather allows free enterprise to put Americans in the best position to attend to themselves. "Social justice" is not a government function. "Legal justice" is, but what you propose Ernie conflicts with legal justice, and it requires that some individuals be stripped of what they aquired legally, and should have the right to own, and give it to others, even when they do not want to. If the FBI came into your home against your will and began to take your TV, appliances, the family jewelry, and everything in your wallet, and told you they needed it to build assault riffles and more nuclear weapons, I suspect you would see things differently about the government's right to choose how to spend your money. But at the same time you advocate using tax money to spend on what you and some of your liberal friends consider to be social justice.

People need to get an old social studies book, and refresh what the federal government was established for. And also why our country became so prosperous based on what our founding fathers did in terms of creating a foundation for our economy and limited government.

Yes, Republicans haven't done anything to increase the budget-raise the deficit over the years either.

(08-18-2018 02:46 PM)MajorHoople Wrote:  Yes, Republicans haven't done anything to increase the budget-raise the deficit over the years either.

You have never heard me say that the Republicans are wonderful, or without lots of fault. Politicians in general all fall into the same trap. They think you can't get elected unless you promise stuff. Both parties talk every presidential election about who is going to "create (more) jobs". It ain't the governments function to create jobs. It is a market result if enterprise is allowed to work. The best thing politicians can do to create jobs is get the He11 out of the way, and let free enterprise work and the economy grow with as little interference from government as can be possible.

In my mind the Republicans have been less egregious violating these principles than the Democrats, and certainly this has been true for the last twenty years particularly, both philosophically and in terms of platform. Socialism is almost exactly opposite of what our founding fathers intended, and what made America by far the wealthiest and most prosperous nation in the word; to such an extent that many other developed nations resented us for our riches. Democrats embrace socialism, and socialistic concepts. We have taken what made us great for granted.