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Fruit of the poisoned tree
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TechRocks Offline
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Post: #81
RE: Fruit of the poisoned tree
(03-20-2018 06:28 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  so the point he's making is that the conspiracy must be to DEFRAUD the US?

Dunno, if you can read (and understand) the McCarthy piece, it sounds like he's saying Bueller is trying to legislate new crimes by mushrooming the meaning of fraud.

Quote:The lesson is clear: The concept of fraud, including fraud on the government, is to be given its traditional, commonsense meaning of a deprivation of money or tangible property. If there is to be criminalization of other kinds of schemes that deprive the government, not of its tangible assets, but of its capacity to carry out its functions effectively, it is for Congress to proscribe these schemes in clear criminal statutes. Prosecutors may not legislate new crimes by mushrooming the definition of “fraud.”

Yet this is exactly what Mueller is doing.

Think about how bizarre this is. For public consumption, the special counsel alleges breathtaking felony offenses — bank fraud, tax fraud, and money laundering, crimes involving over $100 million when aggregated. Yet, to obtain a guilty plea from one of the allegedly serious felons, Mueller finds it necessary to abandon the hair-raising felonies he purports to have found. If these felonies are readily provable, as Mueller has claimed in his indictments, they are supposed to form the basis of any plea under Justice Department policy. If Gates is the mega-criminal nine-digit fraudster the special counsel has portrayed, he is not supposed to get a slap on the wrist. Yet Mueller accepts a plea to minor charges, including a Section 371 conspiracy that is a prosecutorial invention — designed to shield the allegedly serious felon from penalties Congress has decreed for the misconduct involved.

His goal? I'm sure the same goal he's had from the beginning. Find some way to screw Trump.
03-20-2018 07:09 PM
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q5sys Offline
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Post: #82
RE: Fruit of the poisoned tree
(03-20-2018 06:21 PM)TechRocks Wrote:  Yeah, you need to read that McCarthy piece, it's above my pay grade.

And here's his comments on the statute you mentioned, they mirror yours:

Quote:As I pointed out when Mueller first indicted Manafort and Gates, there is no such offense in federal law as “conspiracy against the United States.” What Section 371 criminalizes (besides the afore-described conspiracy “to commit any offense” under federal penal law) is conspiracy “to defraud the United States” (emphasis added).

Dude needs to go back to Middle school go learn grammar and then go back to law school. He apparently doesn't understand the meaning of the word 'or' Statutes have to be broken down like we all did in the past with sentence diagrams.
So lets break this down.

Quote:If two or more persons conspire either
this starts a list of two items - per the definition of either

Quote:to commit any offense against the United States,
This is item 1

Quote:or
The word that this Attorney seems to be ignoring


Quote:to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof

This is item 2. We know that this is not a continuation of a list of items because when there are multiple clauses the statute is written as 'any of the following:' Furthermore, we know that there are only two items due to the use of the word 'either', so the second 'or' in this phrase is regarding the victim of the defrauding. IE the US or any agency thereof, like the military or a three letter agency, etc.
Futhermore, notice that both actions are just that... ACTIONS. 'To commit' and 'to defraud' It is not written as 'to commit fraud', nor is it written 'to commit an offense of fraud'.
We know there are two things due to the use of either, and there are two actions in this sentence. Notice that the 2nd or does NOT have an action associated with it. This is because it is an 'or' between the two victims (US or any agency).

This statue has been written specifically to give this meaning.

Quote:in any manner or for any purpose,
meaning ALL possible actions are included and all possible methods are included

Quote:and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy,
meaning they actually did something physical that would have been an action involved in the enactment of the offense.

Quote:each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both
the penalty for violating

There is a very specific way that these sentences are constructed, and every word is specifically chosen. You cannot simply read through it casually and assume what the meaning was. As has been shown time and time again with Supreme Court rulings... the EXACT phrasing and use of every single word is important. Legislators spend plenty of time making sure they use the exact word they need to use so that others will understand their exact intent. You do NOT use the word 'either' to mean more than two things. The use of 'either' and 'or' are a clear indication to how the rest of the sentence is meant to be understood. "Either' in conjuction with 'or' does not mean 'of'

He is trying to claim that the sentence says:
Quote:If two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense against the United States ____ to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof
instead of what it says which is
Quote:If two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense against the United States, or to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof

You cannot ignore any word in a statute. Ignoring the word or changes the entire meaning of this statute. If Congress did not intend 'or' to be there, they wouldn't have written it there and voted on it being there.
(This post was last modified: 03-20-2018 11:52 PM by q5sys.)
03-20-2018 11:46 PM
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JMUDunk Offline
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Post: #83
Fruit of the poisoned tree
(03-20-2018 02:56 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  
(03-20-2018 12:14 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(03-20-2018 12:06 PM)TechRocks Wrote:  
(03-20-2018 10:59 AM)JMUDunk Wrote:  
(03-19-2018 06:52 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  Greed and corruption. We all complain about it, except when someone does something about it and our boy is the target.

If Mueller can't nail Trump, I pray he'll get Kushner.


Why would you “pray” he gets Kushner?

What’s the guy ever done to you, or done to harm anyone? I’d never heard of the guy until 2-3 yrs ago when we were told to wait for the coronation.

What’s with the animosity towards Jared Kushner?

You jelly, bro? Sound like you may be jelly(?).

Yeah OD, show us on the doll where Kushner touched you.

[Image: giphy.gif]

I remember you using this line before. It was funny then, now just sad. Come up with some new material.
Kind of like Dunk with the silly Jelly bro nonsense. He's used it before. You guys need to either work harder or post less. The quality is slipping.


Uhhhh, ok.

Link up, where have I used the “nonsense” before? When was it nonsense?

Care to answer the question?

Why the “hope they get Kushner” stuff?
What’s your beef there? Honest ???
03-21-2018 05:18 AM
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TechRocks Offline
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Post: #84
RE: Fruit of the poisoned tree
(03-20-2018 11:46 PM)q5sys Wrote:  
(03-20-2018 06:21 PM)TechRocks Wrote:  Yeah, you need to read that McCarthy piece, it's above my pay grade.

And here's his comments on the statute you mentioned, they mirror yours:

Quote:As I pointed out when Mueller first indicted Manafort and Gates, there is no such offense in federal law as “conspiracy against the United States.” What Section 371 criminalizes (besides the afore-described conspiracy “to commit any offense” under federal penal law) is conspiracy “to defraud the United States” (emphasis added).

Dude needs to go back to Middle school go learn grammar and then go back to law school. He apparently doesn't understand the meaning of the word 'or' Statutes have to be broken down like we all did in the past with sentence diagrams.
So lets break this down.

Quote:If two or more persons conspire either
this starts a list of two items - per the definition of either

Quote:to commit any offense against the United States,
This is item 1

Quote:or
The word that this Attorney seems to be ignoring


Quote:to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof

This is item 2. We know that this is not a continuation of a list of items because when there are multiple clauses the statute is written as 'any of the following:' Furthermore, we know that there are only two items due to the use of the word 'either', so the second 'or' in this phrase is regarding the victim of the defrauding. IE the US or any agency thereof, like the military or a three letter agency, etc.
Futhermore, notice that both actions are just that... ACTIONS. 'To commit' and 'to defraud' It is not written as 'to commit fraud', nor is it written 'to commit an offense of fraud'.
We know there are two things due to the use of either, and there are two actions in this sentence. Notice that the 2nd or does NOT have an action associated with it. This is because it is an 'or' between the two victims (US or any agency).

This statue has been written specifically to give this meaning.

Quote:in any manner or for any purpose,
meaning ALL possible actions are included and all possible methods are included

Quote:and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy,
meaning they actually did something physical that would have been an action involved in the enactment of the offense.

Quote:each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both
the penalty for violating

There is a very specific way that these sentences are constructed, and every word is specifically chosen. You cannot simply read through it casually and assume what the meaning was. As has been shown time and time again with Supreme Court rulings... the EXACT phrasing and use of every single word is important. Legislators spend plenty of time making sure they use the exact word they need to use so that others will understand their exact intent. You do NOT use the word 'either' to mean more than two things. The use of 'either' and 'or' are a clear indication to how the rest of the sentence is meant to be understood. "Either' in conjuction with 'or' does not mean 'of'

He is trying to claim that the sentence says:
Quote:If two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense against the United States ____ to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof
instead of what it says which is
Quote:If two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense against the United States, or to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof

You cannot ignore any word in a statute. Ignoring the word or changes the entire meaning of this statute. If Congress did not intend 'or' to be there, they wouldn't have written it there and voted on it being there.

Thanks for the explanation. Told ya it was above my pay grade.
03-21-2018 06:03 AM
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Old Dominion Online
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Post: #85
RE: Fruit of the poisoned tree
(03-21-2018 05:18 AM)JMUDunk Wrote:  
(03-20-2018 02:56 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  
(03-20-2018 12:14 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(03-20-2018 12:06 PM)TechRocks Wrote:  
(03-20-2018 10:59 AM)JMUDunk Wrote:  Why would you “pray” he gets Kushner?

What’s the guy ever done to you, or done to harm anyone? I’d never heard of the guy until 2-3 yrs ago when we were told to wait for the coronation.

What’s with the animosity towards Jared Kushner?

You jelly, bro? Sound like you may be jelly(?).

Yeah OD, show us on the doll where Kushner touched you.

[Image: giphy.gif]

I remember you using this line before. It was funny then, now just sad. Come up with some new material.
Kind of like Dunk with the silly Jelly bro nonsense. He's used it before. You guys need to either work harder or post less. The quality is slipping.


Uhhhh, ok.

Link up, where have I used the “nonsense” before? When was it nonsense?

Care to answer the question?

Why the “hope they get Kushner” stuff?
What’s your beef there? Honest ???

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/28/opini...fraud.html
This article pretty well lays it out. Of course the article itself is not proof, but I think it lays out a pretty convincing argument that Kushner is nothing more than an opportunist money grubber.
To me he's just an example of the low level morals people Trump surrounds himself with i.e. swamp monsters. and no I'm not jello
You know the old saying " It doesn't matter how beautiful they are, how rich they are, how good in bed they are..... somewhere there's a guy out there who is sick of her shi!
(This post was last modified: 03-21-2018 07:35 AM by Old Dominion.)
03-21-2018 07:34 AM
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TechRocks Offline
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Post: #86
RE: Fruit of the poisoned tree
(03-21-2018 07:34 AM)Old Dominion Wrote:  https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/28/opini...fraud.html
This article pretty well lays it out. Of course the article itself is not proof, but I think it lays out a pretty convincing argument that Kushner is nothing more than an opportunist money grubber.
To me he's just an example of the low level morals people Trump surrounds himself with i.e. swamp monsters. and no I'm not jello
You know the old saying " It doesn't matter how beautiful they are, how rich they are, how good in bed they are..... somewhere there's a guy out there who is sick of her shi!

If I may ask, who was your preferred candidate for President?
03-21-2018 08:04 AM
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Post: #87
RE: Fruit of the poisoned tree
(03-20-2018 06:28 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  so the point he's making is that the conspiracy must be to DEFRAUD the US?

Its simple tax fraud he is charging, but he is trying to make it sound like it is somehow related to his Russia investigation by calling it "conspiracy against the United States." Probably also trying to taint a potential jury pool.
03-21-2018 08:07 AM
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Redwingtom Offline
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Post: #88
RE: Fruit of the poisoned tree
(03-20-2018 01:58 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(03-19-2018 11:42 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(03-19-2018 11:39 AM)TechRocks Wrote:  
(03-19-2018 11:36 AM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  Its not illegal to hire an investigator to dig up dirt on a political opponent.

Is it illegal to collude with foreign nationals to try to affect the outcome of an election?

I don't believe there is any criminal statue for that. Perhaps one of our resident lawyers can clarify.

Then what is the Trump investigation over?

Same thing it has always been for.

Quote:APPOINTMENT OF SPECIAL COUNSEL TO INVESTIGATE RUSSIAN INTERFERENCE WITH THE 2016 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION AND RELATED MATTERS
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/...ecial.html
03-21-2018 08:41 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #89
RE: Fruit of the poisoned tree
(03-21-2018 08:41 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(03-20-2018 01:58 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(03-19-2018 11:42 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(03-19-2018 11:39 AM)TechRocks Wrote:  
(03-19-2018 11:36 AM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  Its not illegal to hire an investigator to dig up dirt on a political opponent.
Is it illegal to collude with foreign nationals to try to affect the outcome of an election?
I don't believe there is any criminal statue for that. Perhaps one of our resident lawyers can clarify.
Then what is the Trump investigation over?
Same thing it has always been for.
Quote:APPOINTMENT OF SPECIAL COUNSEL TO INVESTIGATE RUSSIAN INTERFERENCE WITH THE 2016 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION AND RELATED MATTERS
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/...ecial.html

But that's the problem. That document was over broad, essentially booking a four-year fishing expedition. The bureaucrats knew Trump was coming after them, so they got their licks in first.
03-21-2018 09:07 AM
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TechRocks Offline
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Post: #90
RE: Fruit of the poisoned tree
(03-21-2018 09:07 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(03-21-2018 08:41 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(03-20-2018 01:58 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(03-19-2018 11:42 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(03-19-2018 11:39 AM)TechRocks Wrote:  Is it illegal to collude with foreign nationals to try to affect the outcome of an election?
I don't believe there is any criminal statue for that. Perhaps one of our resident lawyers can clarify.
Then what is the Trump investigation over?
Same thing it has always been for.
Quote:APPOINTMENT OF SPECIAL COUNSEL TO INVESTIGATE RUSSIAN INTERFERENCE WITH THE 2016 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION AND RELATED MATTERS
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/...ecial.html

But that's the problem. That document was over broad, essentially booking a four-year fishing expedition. The bureaucrats knew Trump was coming after them, so they got their licks in first.

Yeah, that pretty-well sums it up.
03-21-2018 09:39 AM
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q5sys Offline
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Post: #91
RE: Fruit of the poisoned tree
(03-21-2018 06:03 AM)TechRocks Wrote:  Thanks for the explanation. Told ya it was above my pay grade.

The way statutes are written is a really ugly and confusing. It would be SOOOO much nicer if they would write things in a far more technical way so that it would be eaiser for people to understand. I'd vote for writing them more mathematically, but sadly that'd probably make it harder for most people.

It's not the 1700s anymore, lets use [] {} () and such to help group things together... oh yea... and actually make lists be... well... lists. *gasp*

But lawyers and politicians, prefer things be written in this method so that it keeps people ignorant of the law and thus is job security for themselves.
03-21-2018 11:56 AM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #92
RE: Fruit of the poisoned tree
'and related matters' means anything you want it to mean.

As I said, it's what was wrong with the Whitewater investigation and we obviously learned nothing from that.

Watergate... actual coverup of crime
MonicaGate... allegations of crime lead to 'conviction' of (in the grand scheme) petty crimes
This one is much more like the latter than the former. I won't say worse as that is a value judgement, but it's essentially the same thing.
03-21-2018 01:20 PM
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49RFootballNow Offline
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Post: #93
RE: Fruit of the poisoned tree
I'm looking for something to care about in all of this and I'm coming up snake-eyes.
03-21-2018 01:37 PM
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TechRocks Offline
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Post: #94
RE: Fruit of the poisoned tree
(03-21-2018 11:56 AM)q5sys Wrote:  
(03-21-2018 06:03 AM)TechRocks Wrote:  Thanks for the explanation. Told ya it was above my pay grade.

The way statutes are written is a really ugly and confusing. It would be SOOOO much nicer if they would write things in a far more technical way so that it would be eaiser for people to understand. I'd vote for writing them more mathematically, but sadly that'd probably make it harder for most people.

It's not the 1700s anymore, lets use [] {} () and such to help group things together... oh yea... and actually make lists be... well... lists. *gasp*

But lawyers and politicians, prefer things be written in this method so that it keeps people ignorant of the law and thus is job security for themselves.

Sent ya another PM, something along those same lines, happened to me personally. And cost me plenty as well. Check it out and lemme know your thoughts.04-cheers
03-21-2018 01:37 PM
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TechRocks Offline
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Post: #95
RE: Fruit of the poisoned tree
(03-21-2018 01:37 PM)49RFootballNow Wrote:  I'm looking for something to care about in all of this and I'm coming up snake-eyes.

Agreed. But in the end, if it's something, anything, that can be used to attempt to bludgeon the crap out of Trump, rest assured that the left will find it to be the most horrific crime of the century.
03-21-2018 01:41 PM
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49RFootballNow Offline
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Post: #96
RE: Fruit of the poisoned tree
I didn't vote for Trump in the expectation he was squeaky clean and I doubt 99% of Trump's supporters were any different than me on this. Outside or rape, murder, or similar high crime, I'll vote for him over anything the Demos can put up against him next time too.
(This post was last modified: 03-21-2018 02:04 PM by 49RFootballNow.)
03-21-2018 02:04 PM
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Post: #97
RE: Fruit of the poisoned tree
(03-21-2018 08:04 AM)TechRocks Wrote:  
(03-21-2018 07:34 AM)Old Dominion Wrote:  https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/28/opini...fraud.html
This article pretty well lays it out. Of course the article itself is not proof, but I think it lays out a pretty convincing argument that Kushner is nothing more than an opportunist money grubber.
To me he's just an example of the low level morals people Trump surrounds himself with i.e. swamp monsters. and no I'm not jello
You know the old saying " It doesn't matter how beautiful they are, how rich they are, how good in bed they are..... somewhere there's a guy out there who is sick of her shi!

If I may ask, who was your preferred candidate for President?

None of the above I'm afraid. But as I've said before, I held my nose and voted for Hillary. Sad day.
I agree with many on here that congress doesn't give a sh1t about the people and we need real change. I did not expect to get it from Clinton, but I saw her as less obnoxious than Trump.

My real regret is this country can't find a person with charisma, honesty and a message that resonates with most all of us, regardless of party.
03-21-2018 05:09 PM
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TechRocks Offline
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Post: #98
RE: Fruit of the poisoned tree
(03-21-2018 05:09 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  
(03-21-2018 08:04 AM)TechRocks Wrote:  
(03-21-2018 07:34 AM)Old Dominion Wrote:  https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/28/opini...fraud.html
This article pretty well lays it out. Of course the article itself is not proof, but I think it lays out a pretty convincing argument that Kushner is nothing more than an opportunist money grubber.
To me he's just an example of the low level morals people Trump surrounds himself with i.e. swamp monsters. and no I'm not jello
You know the old saying " It doesn't matter how beautiful they are, how rich they are, how good in bed they are..... somewhere there's a guy out there who is sick of her shi!

If I may ask, who was your preferred candidate for President?

None of the above I'm afraid. But as I've said before, I held my nose and voted for Hillary. Sad day.
I agree with many on here that congress doesn't give a sh1t about the people and we need real change. I did not expect to get it from Clinton, but I saw her as less obnoxious than Trump.

My real regret is this country can't find a person with charisma, honesty and a message that resonates with most all of us, regardless of party.

Some people complain that there's no room for a 3rd party candidate in American politics at the presidential level. I'd say Trump is about as close to one as we'll see in our lifetimes. I suggest you hold your nose and enjoy the ride.
03-22-2018 02:14 PM
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Post: #99
RE: Fruit of the poisoned tree
(03-21-2018 01:20 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  'and related matters' means anything you want it to mean.

As I said, it's what was wrong with the Whitewater investigation and we obviously learned nothing from that.

Watergate... actual coverup of crime
MonicaGate... allegations of crime lead to 'conviction' of (in the grand scheme) petty crimes
This one is much more like the latter than the former. I won't say worse as that is a value judgement, but it's essentially the same thing.

Actually MonicaGate was based in civil allegations against Clinton for sexual misconduct. When he was deposed and asked whether he had had sex with Lewinsky, Clinton said 'no' under oath. That perjury served as the basis for the impeachment.

Still have no fing clue how Starr was able to shift from a Whitewater investigation to vetting the President's deposition answers.....

So MonicaGate had no 'investigation of a crime' as its predicate.
03-23-2018 04:58 PM
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Post: #100
RE: Fruit of the poisoned tree
(03-23-2018 04:58 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(03-21-2018 01:20 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  'and related matters' means anything you want it to mean.

As I said, it's what was wrong with the Whitewater investigation and we obviously learned nothing from that.

Watergate... actual coverup of crime
MonicaGate... allegations of crime lead to 'conviction' of (in the grand scheme) petty crimes
This one is much more like the latter than the former. I won't say worse as that is a value judgement, but it's essentially the same thing.

Actually MonicaGate was based in civil allegations against Clinton for sexual misconduct. When he was deposed and asked whether he had had sex with Lewinsky, Clinton said 'no' under oath. That perjury served as the basis for the impeachment.

Still have no fing clue how Starr was able to shift from a Whitewater investigation to vetting the President's deposition answers.....

So MonicaGate had no 'investigation of a crime' as its predicate.

You're right... when I wrote monicagate, I meant whitewater. Allegations of the whitewater crime (abuse of power/financial mis-dealings) lead to 'convictions' for perjury about an affair
03-24-2018 05:09 PM
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