(03-22-2018 04:12 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Reasonable analysis. I have some reason to believe that in your scenario 2, Wayne's choice was Janish. I'm quite certain Wayne would not have been supported Berkman in the role. Janish's retirement from MLB when he still had potential offers on the table makes a lot more sense in that scenario. I think the Wade Townsend video pretty much expresses Wayne's feelings. My question about Janish is how well he knows the recruiting ropes, and therefore I would wonder about whether Pope would stay on under Janish.

Baseball success strikes me as being more about recruiting than even football. Right now, we just don't have the players to go head to head with the people that we used to beat routinely. I think Wayne's age has been used against him, I think the supplemental scholarship money has been a factor (heck, Baseball America even wrote about its impact on a national scale), I'm not sure what else. I think you can do some development with pitchers, but most baseball skills you either have the talent and you don't. And right now we are getting badly out-talented. Maybe if everybody were healthy, we would be more competitive, but health is a skill and depth is an objective of recruiting.

I disagree with the bolded statement completely. We are committing Bailiff-esqe meltdowns regularly this season, and IMO, that has nothing to do with talent. Simple execution has become a problem. Basic fielding is now an issue; this is not a talent problem. Trying to steal second in the most idiotic situation EVER... that isn't talent.. I mean we have to know that Ricky Henderson doesn't play for Rice. That SB attempt a few weeks ago was on par with the fake FG we ran against UTSA... that isn't talent. Someone called that SB and good lord, it was a horrible call.

With regard to talent - One struggle we may have now , IMO, is we coach as though we have all stars... but maybe now we don't. We may not have adjusted our strategy to deal with improved competition or not having all-stars. One of the reasons I was excited about Rhoades is we saw him take a lousy squad and produce more than the sum of the parts. The reason I am nervous about Pera is, I haven't see it yet at Rice and frankly, anyone can coach James Harden. It is like Tyronne Lue... whether he is there or not, he sure as hell isn't the reason the Cavs win.

I also disagree with the statement you made earlier about earning the right to choose a successor. If WG decided in 2008 to hang it up at the pinnacle and said hire xyz.. thats different. If the AD decides we need a replacement due to decline and needing to shake things up, why would we want a hand picked successor? His input is valuable and should be considered, but I do not think it is the deciding factor.

It wasn't a stolen base call b the way.

At the end of the day, perspective is important. As bad as we are now, we are STILL ranked higher for Baseball (top 50%) in Massey than Rice Football EVER was in the last 12 years ( and probably longer)

The situation now is different than it was in 2016 or 2017. Some of the giant dumpster fires are temporarily out.

Making a change or planning for one now makes sense. I prefer, for once, we act before the situation BECOMES a dumpster fire.

(03-22-2018 04:41 PM)Houston Owl Wrote:  It wasn't a stolen base call b the way.

What happened then? Cause it wasn't pretty.

(03-22-2018 04:53 PM)Antarius Wrote:  

(03-22-2018 04:41 PM)Houston Owl Wrote:  It wasn't a stolen base call b the way.

What happened then? Cause it wasn't pretty.

If it's the occasion I'm thinking of it was a hit and run where the batter swung and missed. This has happened more than once.

The CS at 3b against Gonzaga was a clear missed sign. Pure ineptitude on the part of someone. We have had several baserunners thrown out by miles this season, but we aren't exactly getting rewarded on the basepaths for our suppossed aggressiveness. This is simple baseball that has nothing to do with talent and everything to do with execution. And the execution is no where close to being d1 level at the moment.... it's a total joke.

(03-22-2018 09:51 AM)temchugh Wrote:  

(03-22-2018 09:39 AM)Clad Scheme Owl Wrote:  

(03-22-2018 09:34 AM)Wiessman Wrote:  

(03-22-2018 08:37 AM)Clad Scheme Owl Wrote:  Wow....just....wow...Did you see that in an article somewhere? Just curious. To me that just sounds like Graham trying to kill the Berkman movement. A simple google search would show him plenty of examples lol.

http://www.ricethresher.org/article/2018...ll-feature

This:

“I had to work my guts out to be a player,” Graham said. “The journeymen, the catcher — they make better managers because they had to work incredibly hard. If you’re a superstar, you don’t see the world the same way. You just don’t. You tend to want to build a hitter in your own image, and most people don’t see the ball as well as you or have the reflexes that you have.” - courtesy of the linked article

Much better in context. He has a pretty good point.

Several folks have made that argument over the years. We could all make lists of examples and counter-examples. I'm irritated when folks assume that a superstar would make a good coach because he was a superstar. But I'm not convinced that that either a journeyman or a superstar is more likely to be successful. The failure rate is pretty high for both groups. It makes more sense to judge a perspective head coach based on their prior coaching success.

Yup, but you can't judge college coaching success from a small sample of 2 years at a small, religious high school. I was never against Lance, but continue to believe neither he nor anyone else should be given the Rice heading coaching job without at least 1 - 2 years as an assistant coach at the college level. The time and travel commitment is light years different from what he's had to do the past 2 years.

(03-22-2018 09:14 AM)temchugh Wrote:  

(03-22-2018 08:56 AM)Tiki Owl Wrote:  We wouldn’t have been an at-large team last year so it is a bit misleading to saying the streak is alive if we consider playing well enough during the season to earn a spot.

For me, the streak is a big part of Graham's amazing legacy. The streak is NCAA tournament appearances. There is no asterisks because we got the automatic bid.

In my book, you don't fire a coach with a streak like that. Just like you don't pull a pitcher in the ninth inning with a no hitter (even if you think that the pitcher "got lucky" on a couple of the outs).

Also, while it is true we would not have been an at-large team last year, one could argue rather convincingly that last season was one of Wayne's greatest coaching efforts. He kept the team together and believing in themselves despite the horrific first half of the season, which resulted in a 18 - 4 end of the season run, including a sweep of the conference tourney, when virtually every game over the past 6 weeks was a "must win" game.

You just outer yourself friZzy

You chastised me for saying that a coach in his last year is at a disadvantage and now you listed that as the number one reason why people don’t do it, just as I knew you would


And Illini...As I said, the time to make the decision was 2016... In a worst case, 2017 should have been the ‘play for your ckntract’ Year. 2018 is too late because you can’t effectively recruit to a coaches last year, so why expect meaningful improvement?

Your options are good, but I really don’t see his unwanted farewell tour as being more awkward than his unwanted final two, and especially one year without a contract, do you?

Yes, it’s a hard call... but would we rather NOT have a legendary coach who took us to a NC?

Try firing a single mom with two kids barely making ends meet and then we can talk about awkward. Making tough decisions is why these people get paid well.... and there will ALWAYS (almost) be donors and fans who will disagree with your decision. That’s the job

nONE of us know exactly where the failure lies, but the responsibility for these things doesn’t lie with Wayne to make their jobs easy. As a competitor, it is his job to make the decision difficult... like winning the tournament rather than phoning it in...

Had they decided to force a farewell tour, I expect as a gentleman that Wayne would have accepted (albeit begrudgingly) the well deserved accolades... just as he has fairly quietly accepted the absolute slap in the face we’ve given him... We’ve robbed him (and ourselves) of his victory lap... I’d also note that If pope or banish or Berkman are the heirs, they could start recruiting (at least generically) or developing relationships on campus before the season is even over... certainly the very last day...with or without Wayne.

(03-23-2018 01:20 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  You just outer yourself friZzy

You chastised me for saying that a coach in his last year is at a disadvantage and now you listed that as the number one reason why people don’t do it, just as I knew you would

Congratulations?

"Chastised" you?

What I said is that the usual reasons are not applicable or less applicable in this special circumstance. You took my disagreement with your position as "chastisement".

(03-23-2018 07:21 AM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  

(03-23-2018 01:20 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  You just outer yourself friZzy

You chastised me for saying that a coach in his last year is at a disadvantage and now you listed that as the number one reason why people don’t do it, just as I knew you would

Congratulations?

"Chastised" you?

What I said is that the usual reasons are not applicable or less applicable in this special circumstance. You took my disagreement with your position as "chastisement".

More circuitous debate. That's not really what happened, but I'm tired of arguing about that.

To anyone who has just started reading the discussion, there are two discussions... One is whether or not Wayne should be extended, which isn't what I'm talking about. Some people may be, but I'm not. I certainly have an opinion, but that is a different issue. The topic is how to manage the expiring contracts of coaches and when decisions should be made to extend or terminate them using the current situation as a case study.

The biggest thing that makes this case 'special' is the fact that we didn't do it in 2016, or 2017... so NOW it IS special. We (by our inaction) MADE it 'special'. As I've repeatedly said, the problem isn't what we did this year, it's what we've done for the last two or three years... and certainly we knew how old Wayne was then.... and coaches who retire at their final post isn't that unique, and still, we haven't seen them simply 'play out their final year'. At the very least, there has been a farewell tour, and of course there have also been times when a coach didn't agree that he was 'done'.

The fact that Wayne is 80+ might make him more likely to have health issues or be behind the recruiting times of 18 yr olds than someone who is 50, but we see people who are 50 all the time 'retire' or 'step back' for health reasons or were once promising and successful and suddenly aren't anymore. In the other direction, his age also makes him dramatically less likely to get hired away... and as he has successfully dealt with changes in the dynamics of baseball for almost 5 decades now, he is perhaps much better prepared than someone who has only experienced one dynamic to deal with those changes.... so we can't acknowledge the disadvantages of his age, without acknowledging the advantages of it.

The business model in coaching for a variety of reasons is (generically) to never let your coach get within 2 years of the end of his contract. Absolutely, a coach finishing his career somewhere could be an exception to that model, but in that event, there should be an open succession plan. If you reach an impasse as has been RUMORED here where the AD (or those calling his shots for him) has one plan and the coach has another, then IMO that's where the AD earns his money by navigating those waters.... and again, the time to do that was 2 years ago, not this year.

If you weren't ready to replace him two years ago, then you owed it to THE PROGRAM to add a year onto the end of the contract.... keep him at at least 2 years and preferably 3.

Otherwise, you just kept all of the negatives that existed and added one to it... and/or subtracted one from the 'plus' column. Surely nobody believes that Wayne in his last year of his contract vs having 2-3 years left is a recruiting ADVANTAGE do they? If anyone does, you aren't someone who isn't ready to replace him. Those two positions are in direct conflict.

Unfortunately, this is the cost of having a legend as a coach. At SOME point you have to replace him, and that may come before he wants to be replaced. I can't imagine that nobody thought of that before.... and of course, these are purely rumors.




Frizzy, if you disagree with my opinion... that's fine... but I'm asking you to stop rephrasing what I said or putting what I said into a different context and arguing with that.... and no, I don't mean using 'chastising' as opposed to 'taking issue with' or some other description... I mean claiming I'm talking about doing something 'now' when I'm obviously talking about doing something 2 years ago... or talking about 'what high school recruits know or care about', since there is no single definition of that.

Maybe they will surprise us all and there will be a big announcement of a final year/tour/coach-in-waiting/the big hire we couldn't talk about, whatever.... but as of this moment, I'm troubled just as I was with Willis.... and not solely (in fact only mildly) because of a difference in opinion about the direction.

(03-21-2018 08:27 AM)Clad Scheme Owl Wrote:  

(03-19-2018 08:41 AM)Clad Scheme Owl Wrote:  

(03-14-2018 12:44 AM)skycatcher Wrote:  scoreboard is rather prescient considering our ad was shopping tcu assistants in attendance:


FINAL
11 TCU 3
Rice 7
BOX SCORE

Maybe our AD should be shopping La Tech assistants then?

Correction, A&M assistants*

Ehh at this point I'm just beating a dead horse so I will stop..




EDIT: I am incapable of that and need I say WKU assistants???