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jarr Offline
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Jacob at PG
I'm ready to move on past the game last night, but I am still trying to figure out what Mick is trying to do with the point guard position this year. This has been an issue all year (and Mick's entire tenure here) and was noticeable even during the 16 game streak, I just don't think it was paid much attention because we hadn't lost.

What I don't understand, is why would Jennifer or Broome even need to be in the game if you are going to have JEIII run the show. Neither are going to be effective at all playing off the ball in 2 guard role. They aren't going to bring you something really great defensively. If that's how he wants to use them, we are probably better off with Moore in the game. The defense at least has to give some attention to Moore's shooting ability, and they can't sag off and help on Evans as much.

I stand by that Broome has way to short of a leash, but I know others disagree. Part of the problem, is he is more of a north-south player, and sometimes I wonder if Mick prefers his point guards to be east-west.
 
02-16-2018 06:32 AM
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Spinal070508 Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Jacob at PG
(02-16-2018 06:32 AM)jarr Wrote:  I'm ready to move on past the game last night, but I am still trying to figure out what Mick is trying to do with the point guard position this year. This has been an issue all year (and Mick's entire tenure here) and was noticeable even during the 16 game streak, I just don't think it was paid much attention because we hadn't lost.

What I don't understand, is why would Jennifer or Broome even need to be in the game if you are going to have JEIII run the show. Neither are going to be effective at all playing off the ball in 2 guard role. They aren't going to bring you something really great defensively. If that's how he wants to use them, we are probably better off with Moore in the game. The defense at least has to give some attention to Moore's shooting ability, and they can't sag off and help on Evans as much.

I stand by that Broome has way to short of a leash, but I know others disagree. Part of the problem, is he is more of a north-south player, and sometimes I wonder if Mick prefers his point guards to be east-west.
I think a lot of these guys would be better if Mick let them play. You can see the players afraid to make a mistake. If they turn it over they instantly look at the bench and Mick is running a sub up to the table. Players don't get better if you don't let then work through their mistakes.

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02-16-2018 06:40 AM
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RE: Jacob at PG
Evans has been stellar all year at PG until last night. Not sure what you have been watching, Jarr.

Broome is just not ready to contribute heavily on either end against this level of competition. Mid pack of the conference and below he is fine. He’s a mid major player with some things he does well and some things he is still not wired for. Not nearly strong enough. Makes silly mistakes on D. Can’t make space to create a shot on perimeter. Doesn’t drive well against physical teams that play tight D.

There are some clear reasons he was not recruited at this level. This is not NVE we are dealing with here no matter how much fans wanted to go with that narrative. Look at who he gets minutes against and who he doesn’t. Rotation has changed as the year has progressed as the staff figured some things out about those limitations and how best to use him without getting hurt.
 
(This post was last modified: 02-16-2018 06:55 AM by rath v2.0.)
02-16-2018 06:48 AM
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Post: #4
RE: Jacob at PG
If Evans is going to play 35+ (which I'm fine with)... he cannot play pg the entire time. I thought we over played that last night.
 
02-16-2018 06:56 AM
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skyblade Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Jacob at PG
Evans was playing point guard for most of the first 10 minutes when our offense ran just fine.

Once Evans started to get tired though, his PG play deteriorated.

He is more than capable of playing PG for short burst, but can't have him at PG an entire game.
 
02-16-2018 07:10 AM
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RE: Jacob at PG
(02-16-2018 07:10 AM)skyblade Wrote:  Evans was playing point guard for most of the first 10 minutes when our offense ran just fine.

Once Evans started to get tired though, his PG play deteriorated.

He is more than capable of playing PG for short burst, but can't have him at PG an entire game.

This was my thought as well. I thought we overplayed our hand with that yesterday. Eventually we bogged down. I like Jake' at pg but let's pick our spots a little more.
 
02-16-2018 07:12 AM
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jarr Offline
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RE: Jacob at PG
(02-16-2018 06:48 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Evans has been stellar all year at PG until last night. Not sure what you have been watching, Jarr.

Broome is just not ready to contribute heavily on either end against this level of competition. Mid pack of the conference and below he is fine. He’s a mid major player with some things he does well and some things he is still not wired for. Not nearly strong enough. Makes silly mistakes on D. Can’t make space to create a shot on perimeter. Doesn’t drive well against physical teams that play tight D.

There are some clear reasons he was not recruited at this level. This is not NVE we are dealing with here no matter how much fans wanted to go with that narrative. Look at who he gets minutes against and who he doesn’t. Rotation has changed as the year has progressed as the staff figured some things out about those limitations and how best to use him without getting hurt.

OK I get it that Broome isn't a NBA all star like Van Exel, and he has some drawbacks. But surely he brings more to the table than JJ? Or at least just as much? I watched Jennifer last night, and really did not see what he does on defense that is so special, and bugger guards can easily get shots off over him. I don't know what the other option is, but playing Evans 40 minutes at point guard is not a good solution. At this point I would just experiment with Williams, Cumberland, and Moore bringing the ball up the court, at least they can give you some size and rebounding on the defensive side of the court.

This reminds me of the 2003-2004 team, we started the year off where it was supposed to be a 2 headed monster between Chad Moore and Nick Williams, but it ended up being Armein Kirkland and James White by February.
 
02-16-2018 07:48 AM
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skyblade Offline
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RE: Jacob at PG
(02-16-2018 07:48 AM)jarr Wrote:  
(02-16-2018 06:48 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Evans has been stellar all year at PG until last night. Not sure what you have been watching, Jarr.

Broome is just not ready to contribute heavily on either end against this level of competition. Mid pack of the conference and below he is fine. He’s a mid major player with some things he does well and some things he is still not wired for. Not nearly strong enough. Makes silly mistakes on D. Can’t make space to create a shot on perimeter. Doesn’t drive well against physical teams that play tight D.

There are some clear reasons he was not recruited at this level. This is not NVE we are dealing with here no matter how much fans wanted to go with that narrative. Look at who he gets minutes against and who he doesn’t. Rotation has changed as the year has progressed as the staff figured some things out about those limitations and how best to use him without getting hurt.

OK I get it that Broome isn't a NBA all star like Van Exel, and he has some drawbacks. But surely he brings more to the table than JJ? Or at least just as much? I watched Jennifer last night, and really did not see what he does on defense that is so special, and bugger guards can easily get shots off over him. I don't know what the other option is, but playing Evans 40 minutes at point guard is not a good solution. At this point I would just experiment with Williams, Cumberland, and Moore bringing the ball up the court, at least they can give you some size and rebounding on the defensive side of the court.

This reminds me of the 2003-2004 team, we started the year off where it was supposed to be a 2 headed monster between Chad Moore and Nick Williams, but it ended up being Armein Kirkland and James White by February.

I agree, we need an identity at PG and we need to stick to that identity. It can be Broome/Jenifer or it can be Cumberland/Moore/Williams, with Evans handling at key moments in either grouping. Jenifer brings low risk/low reward PG play, if the offense is running smooth play Jenifer, since Broome is more likely to make dumb mistakes. Broome brings what we were sorely lacking for 30 minutes last night: energy, dribble-drive penetration and creativity on O.
 
02-16-2018 08:09 AM
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CallMeSlim Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Jacob at PG
(02-16-2018 06:32 AM)jarr Wrote:  I'm ready to move on past the game last night, but I am still trying to figure out what Mick is trying to do with the point guard position this year. This has been an issue all year (and Mick's entire tenure here) and was noticeable even during the 16 game streak, I just don't think it was paid much attention because we hadn't lost.

What I don't understand, is why would Jennifer or Broome even need to be in the game if you are going to have JEIII run the show. Neither are going to be effective at all playing off the ball in 2 guard role. They aren't going to bring you something really great defensively. If that's how he wants to use them, we are probably better off with Moore in the game. The defense at least has to give some attention to Moore's shooting ability, and they can't sag off and help on Evans as much.

I stand by that Broome has way to short of a leash, but I know others disagree. Part of the problem, is he is more of a north-south player, and sometimes I wonder if Mick prefers his point guards to be east-west.



Moore hasn't been knocking them down in conference, only 27.6%. if we are to a point where the 2 PGs are unusable, then we just have 4 players. None of the freshman guards are ready for games like last night.
 
02-16-2018 09:35 AM
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RE: Jacob at PG
The two man high post offense with Evans at pg is a bust, doesn't work and is to easy to defend. First ten minutes fine, then other team makes adjustments and it becomes a struggle. Takes Gary out of low post and creates horrible passing lanes.
 
(This post was last modified: 02-16-2018 09:43 AM by CincyBro.)
02-16-2018 09:42 AM
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RE: Jacob at PG
(02-16-2018 09:42 AM)CincyBro Wrote:  The two man high post offense with Evans at pg is a bust, doesn't work and is to easy to defend. First ten minutes fine, then other team makes adjustments and it becomes a struggle. Takes Gary out of low post and creates horrible passing lanes.


and we don't have a lot of movement. the other guys kinda stand around and wait for Jake to make something happen.


there was little to no passing.
 
02-16-2018 09:48 AM
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RE: Jacob at PG
(02-16-2018 07:48 AM)jarr Wrote:  
(02-16-2018 06:48 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Evans has been stellar all year at PG until last night. Not sure what you have been watching, Jarr.

Broome is just not ready to contribute heavily on either end against this level of competition. Mid pack of the conference and below he is fine. He’s a mid major player with some things he does well and some things he is still not wired for. Not nearly strong enough. Makes silly mistakes on D. Can’t make space to create a shot on perimeter. Doesn’t drive well against physical teams that play tight D.

There are some clear reasons he was not recruited at this level. This is not NVE we are dealing with here no matter how much fans wanted to go with that narrative. Look at who he gets minutes against and who he doesn’t. Rotation has changed as the year has progressed as the staff figured some things out about those limitations and how best to use him without getting hurt.

OK I get it that Broome isn't a NBA all star like Van Exel, and he has some drawbacks. But surely he brings more to the table than JJ? Or at least just as much? I watched Jennifer last night, and really did not see what he does on defense that is so special, and bugger guards can easily get shots off over him. I don't know what the other option is, but playing Evans 40 minutes at point guard is not a good solution. At this point I would just experiment with Williams, Cumberland, and Moore bringing the ball up the court, at least they can give you some size and rebounding on the defensive side of the court.

This reminds me of the 2003-2004 team, we started the year off where it was supposed to be a 2 headed monster between Chad Moore and Nick Williams, but it ended up being Armein Kirkland and James White by February.

Forget NBA allstar...he’s not a guy that gets recruited by mid pack AAC teams. I feel bad for the kid unless he just wanted a better college experience regardless of play. If he thought the grass was greener, he was possibly already on the best lawn he’d have. He’s a smaller version of Farad Cobb and a guy who can do damage against early season OOC buy game teams based on the opposing talent level.

Next year will be his 3rd year here...I’m hoping for the last year JUCO type bounce but he looks like a guy who is always going to struggle unless we use an open gym volume shooter offense.
 
02-16-2018 10:00 AM
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RE: Jacob at PG
(02-16-2018 10:00 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Forget NBA allstar...he’s not a guy that gets recruited by mid pack AAC teams. I feel bad for the kid unless he just wanted a better college experience regardless of play. If he thought the grass was greener, he was possibly already on the best lawn he’d have. He’s a smaller version of Farad Cobb and a guy who can do damage against early season OOC buy game teams based on the opposing talent level.

Next year will be his 3rd year here...I’m hoping for the last year JUCO type bounce but he looks like a guy who is always going to struggle unless we use an open gym volume shooter offense.


its a really interesting take considering he was our best player vs xavier and florida and 3 of his best games of the year are x, florida and ucla.

he's got the best ORtg vs Tier A teams on the roster and actually has a better assist rate and turnover rate than jenifer vs tier A opponents. (only 5 game sample size)

but yea i guess he can't play against the better teams.


where do you come up with this stuff.
 
02-16-2018 10:07 AM
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RE: Jacob at PG
Ha! He was dreadful on d those games. Coaches learned a bit from those He’s not a high major player.

Dudes from Arkansas pine bluff, etc scored double figures against UC. Someone has to score. Doesn’t mean they can play for UC.

We may need some smarter fans. Lol
 
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02-16-2018 10:10 AM
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RE: Jacob at PG
(02-16-2018 10:10 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Ha! He was dreadful on d those games. Coaches learned a bit from those He’s not a high major player.

Dudes from Arkansas pine bluff, etc scored double figures against UC. Someone has to score. Doesn’t mean they can play for UC.

We may need some smarter fans. Lol


i mean you can tell yourself that but its just not based in reality.


you can hate broome all you want but this team flat out needs him. if he doesn't play well (or at all) it severely limits the ceiling of this team.


considering this is the best defense we've ever had and one of the best in college ball the last 15 years, i'd say his shortcomings on defense (which are there no doubt) are being made up for by the extremely high level of defense from the rest of the group. what he can bring to the offense cannot be brought by anybody else on the roster.


and when people have ran the numbers on defense with broome out there vs jenifer, the difference is minimal at best.
 
02-16-2018 10:18 AM
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RE: Jacob at PG
What are you watching when you watch games?
 
02-16-2018 10:22 AM
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RE: Jacob at PG
(02-16-2018 10:22 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  What are you watching when you watch games?

clearly not the same thing as you.


did you know in conference play with broome on the court we are about 3.5 ppg better than our opponent vs with jenifer?


+127 from broome vs +90 for jenifer.


can you explain how this happens with broome being such an awful player?
 
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02-16-2018 10:27 AM
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RE: Jacob at PG
You just have to be a friend or a relative or something.
 
02-16-2018 10:31 AM
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RE: Jacob at PG
(02-16-2018 10:27 AM)CallMeSlim Wrote:  
(02-16-2018 10:22 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  What are you watching when you watch games?

clearly not the same thing as you.


did you know in conference play with broome on the court we are about 3.5 ppg better than our opponent vs with jenifer?


+127 from broome vs +90 for jenifer.


can you explain how this happens with broome being such an awful player?

Broome gets a higher percentage of his minutes against lesser competition? That could explain it. I haven't done the breakdown though.
 
02-16-2018 10:34 AM
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jarr Offline
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RE: Jacob at PG
(02-16-2018 10:31 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  You just have to be a friend or a relative or something.

Rath,

Since you've pointed out all of Broomes deficiencies, can you explain exactly what Jennifer is bringing to the table? Maybe someone with a better basketball mind can explain to me, but I just don't see it. He usually passes the ball right after he crosses half court and then hides in the corner. Is his defense really that much superior? That stats don't seem to say so, and Broome is way more active as far as steals and creating TO's go.
 
02-16-2018 10:38 AM
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