(02-15-2018 11:12 AM)Old Dominion Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:07 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:03 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  As far as solutions, until the people taking $ from the NRA are voted out and replaced with people who refuse to take their incentives, nothing will change, period. That has to be step 1.

What will this accomplish? And what is step 2?

There is none so blind as he who will not see.

You have an objection for every proposal. Tells me your not being serious.

I have asked you a number of times for your exact proposal to stop shootings.

Even as a ardent Second Amendment supporter, I have proposed that we have a conversation surrounding the confiscation of all firearms and the repeal of the Second Amendment.

And back off your aceholnish or find your way out of here. This is a good thread and I'll be damned if you push it off the rails.

(02-15-2018 11:14 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:07 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:03 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  As far as solutions, until the people taking $ from the NRA are voted out and replaced with people who refuse to take their incentives, nothing will change, period. That has to be step 1.

What will this accomplish? And what is step 2?

Sigh...
For one, politicians voting on gun-related issues won't have the NRA tapping them on the shoulder gently pulling on their purse strings as they vote.

Two, I've offered multiple potential solutions that are far from a ban in multiple other threads - sadly there are a ton of mass shooting threads that have been created. I'm not saying my ideas are the answer, but getting the NRA's chokehold off of some of these politicians would go a long way to helping foster some actual discussion, IMO.

You know you have a great idea there. We need to ban all special interest groups from dealing with politicians. From the NRA to Planned Parenthood. Great idea.

(02-15-2018 08:52 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 08:40 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  Why the constant double good speak and philosophical conversations about guns?

If you want to stop shooting, repeal the Second Amendment and confiscate, through force when needed, all firearms in America.

Any other argument about gun control is to be mocked and dismissed out of hand.

Even that won't stop it. If people can't legally obtain a weapon they'll find one illegally or they'll find another tool to use.

I refuse to believe that Americans, by their very nature are a murderous people, that would look for any means possible in order to kill. I believe taking away the ease of killing takes away a good part of the motivation. Also of course it would help if these murderers did not get wall to wall press coverage.

(02-15-2018 11:16 AM)UTSAMarineVet09 Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:07 AM)UTSAMarineVet09 Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:03 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 10:49 AM)Paul M Wrote:  Also... rights, motherfuckers!

Gun rights over lives...even the lives of kids. Absolutely sickening that this is the mindset of some in this country.

As far as solutions, until the people taking $ from the NRA are voted out and replaced with people who refuse to take their incentives, nothing will change, period. That has to be step 1.
Sadly, I don't expect that to happen, since it didn't happen after Sandy Hook...I hope it can, though.

How many NRA members have committed a mass casualty shooting?

I'm going to say it's a low number. And for this reason only, most NRA members are responsible gun owners. Sportsmen probably make up a bulk of the members.

(02-15-2018 11:16 AM)gdunn Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:14 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:07 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:03 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  As far as solutions, until the people taking $ from the NRA are voted out and replaced with people who refuse to take their incentives, nothing will change, period. That has to be step 1.

What will this accomplish? And what is step 2?

Sigh...
For one, politicians voting on gun-related issues won't have the NRA tapping them on the shoulder gently pulling on their purse strings as they vote.

Two, I've offered multiple potential solutions that are far from a ban in multiple other threads - sadly there are a ton of mass shooting threads that have been created. I'm not saying my ideas are the answer, but getting the NRA's chokehold off of some of these politicians would go a long way to helping foster some actual discussion, IMO.

You know you have a great idea there. We need to ban all special interest groups from dealing with politicians. From the NRA to Planned Parenthood. Great idea.

Yes; it certainly is. NO lobby should be able to control politicians like they do, regardless of whether I agree with said lobby or not.

(02-15-2018 11:17 AM)Old Blue Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 08:52 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 08:40 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  Why the constant double good speak and philosophical conversations about guns?

If you want to stop shooting, repeal the Second Amendment and confiscate, through force when needed, all firearms in America.

Any other argument about gun control is to be mocked and dismissed out of hand.

Even that won't stop it. If people can't legally obtain a weapon they'll find one illegally or they'll find another tool to use.

I refuse to believe that Americans, by their very nature are a murderous people, that would look for any means possible in order to kill. I believe taking away the ease of killing takes away a good part of the motivation. Also of course it would help if these murderers did not get wall to wall press coverage.

In one of the past threads (Vegas, I think) that I mentioned some common-sense solutions, I even posted a study that said that when certain things were implemented, crime rates, murder rates, and suicide rates dropped dramatically, because people simply didn't go the extra mile to find another weapon. It would work, but MUH LISTS.

More stringent gun control will only take the guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens. It will do nothing to keep the guns out of the hands of criminals, etc. It's not like the criminals will actually apply lawfully for a gun.

(02-15-2018 11:04 AM)Old Dominion Wrote:  Wrong. First there has to be a willingness to find a solution. Which you don't seem to have.

I've offered plenty of solutions in the various gun threads we have on here. Here's two that should make a tangible difference and don't involve the violation of innocent citizen's rights:

1. Enforce the gun laws we already have on the books. The Obama administration was abysmal at this. Thus far the Trump administration has shown improvement.

2. Start holding officials and/or professionals responsible for inaction that could have protected against this. In most of our mass shootings there were significant red flags leading up to the incident that should have made it much harder for the shooter to obtain their weapons and the system failed. Start punishing those who are responsible for the failures.


By my count that's exactly two more realistic solutions (that can be implemented TODAY btw...no new law needed) than you have presented.

Seems to me I'm trying to be a much bigger part of the solution than you are.

Quote:You remind me of the guy looking for a job with a gun so he can kill it if he finds one.

Nah, I already had a job with a gun and retired. Never had to shoot anybody thankfully.

(02-15-2018 11:13 AM)gdunn Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:09 AM)Old Dominion Wrote:  Ban guns!! Please stop being so disingenuous. We all know nobody's talking about that so why can't you move on from it? Do you work for the NRA? cause you sound more and more like one of their shills. Bogey man. Their coming to take my guns!! wahh wahh wahh

So you want to ban guns?

How do you propose to do this? Do you just stop? Do you ban all guns? What about service revolvers for our LEOs? What about people who already have guns? What's your plan there?

We're having dialogue. LS didn't attack, he's trying to have a debate.

Sorry, I should have quoted Dunk. I'm being facetious about banning guns. It's never gonna happen so why worry about it. It's a red herring designed to forestall any discussion.

Many of you on this board abhor government interference. OK, fair enough. Why not start at church on sunday? How about preachers starting a dialogue? Why not at school board meetings? Why don't individuals step up to the plate and acknowledge we have b no place in our society for violence as a solution, particularly assault style rifles. ( I can't say assault rifles cause some wahoo on here will correct me) Why not consider voting for politicians who are openly opposed to these types weapons?
The bottom line is until enough people speak out and take a stand against automatic, assault STYLE rifles, we'll continue to see these massacres. It's the change in the country's collective attitude toward guns that will make the difference, not anything the Govt. does.

(02-15-2018 11:22 AM)VA49er Wrote:  More stringent gun control will only take the guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens. It will do nothing to keep the guns out of the hands of criminals, etc. It's not like the criminals will actually apply lawfully for a gun.

Again, the studies that I posted in another thread said that EXACTLY that happened. Fewer criminals got guns with more stringent laws. To boot, fewer suicides as well.

With gun control, eventually the numbers of guns that are available (legally or illegally) would drop, and there are a LOT of lazy criminals in this country. They simply won't pay the money or go through the extra hoops to get one.

(02-15-2018 11:25 AM)Old Dominion Wrote:  Why don't individuals step up to the plate and acknowledge we have b no place in our society for violence as a solution, particularly assault style rifles. ( I can't say assault rifles cause some wahoo on here will correct me)

Why would we want to have a conversation on a topic that isn't true?

And what exactly is an "assault style" rifle?

(02-15-2018 11:17 AM)Old Blue Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 08:52 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 08:40 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  Why the constant double good speak and philosophical conversations about guns?

If you want to stop shooting, repeal the Second Amendment and confiscate, through force when needed, all firearms in America.

Any other argument about gun control is to be mocked and dismissed out of hand.

Even that won't stop it. If people can't legally obtain a weapon they'll find one illegally or they'll find another tool to use.

I refuse to believe that Americans, by their very nature are a murderous people, that would look for any means possible in order to kill. I believe taking away the ease of killing takes away a good part of the motivation. Also of course it would help if these murderers did not get wall to wall press coverage.

Cars. Knives. Hammers. Pressure cookers...

How much you willing to give up?

(02-15-2018 11:18 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:16 AM)gdunn Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:14 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:07 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:03 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  As far as solutions, until the people taking $ from the NRA are voted out and replaced with people who refuse to take their incentives, nothing will change, period. That has to be step 1.

What will this accomplish? And what is step 2?

Sigh...
For one, politicians voting on gun-related issues won't have the NRA tapping them on the shoulder gently pulling on their purse strings as they vote.

Two, I've offered multiple potential solutions that are far from a ban in multiple other threads - sadly there are a ton of mass shooting threads that have been created. I'm not saying my ideas are the answer, but getting the NRA's chokehold off of some of these politicians would go a long way to helping foster some actual discussion, IMO.

You know you have a great idea there. We need to ban all special interest groups from dealing with politicians. From the NRA to Planned Parenthood. Great idea.

Yes; it certainly is. NO lobby should be able to control politicians like they do, regardless of whether I agree with said lobby or not.

A lobby is just a group of people exercising their 1st Amendment rights as a group.

When you and 4 other parents choose a spokesperson and complain about lunches to the school board...you are a lobby.

Labor unions, the NRA, the Sierra Club, Exxon, Planned Parenthood, CPAC, etc. are all just collections of citizens exercising their freedom of association, freedom of speech, freedom to seek redress of grievances.

We are free to vote out politicians that are unduly influenced. But we don't.



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

(02-15-2018 11:34 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:18 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:16 AM)gdunn Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:14 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:07 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  What will this accomplish? And what is step 2?

Sigh...
For one, politicians voting on gun-related issues won't have the NRA tapping them on the shoulder gently pulling on their purse strings as they vote.

Two, I've offered multiple potential solutions that are far from a ban in multiple other threads - sadly there are a ton of mass shooting threads that have been created. I'm not saying my ideas are the answer, but getting the NRA's chokehold off of some of these politicians would go a long way to helping foster some actual discussion, IMO.

You know you have a great idea there. We need to ban all special interest groups from dealing with politicians. From the NRA to Planned Parenthood. Great idea.

Yes; it certainly is. NO lobby should be able to control politicians like they do, regardless of whether I agree with said lobby or not.

A lobby is just a group of people exercising their 1st Amendment rights as a group.

When you and 4 other parents choose a spokesperson and complain about lunches to the school board...you are a lobby.

Labor unions, the NRA, the Sierra Club, Exxon, Planned Parenthood, CPAC, etc. are all just collections of citizens exercising their freedom of association, freedom of speech, freedom to seek redress of grievances.

We are free to vote out politicians that are unduly influenced. But we don't.

Hence my original statement - until we vote out people who are influenced by the NRA, none of this will change.

Shouldn't be a need for a lobby fighting for rights already enshrined in the Constitution. The sollution to your problem is to stop the people opposing the Constitution.

(02-15-2018 11:42 AM)Paul M Wrote:  Shouldn't be a need for a lobby fighting for rights already enshrined in the Constitution.

Cool - let's disband the NRA, then.

(02-15-2018 11:49 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:42 AM)Paul M Wrote:  Shouldn't be a need for a lobby fighting for rights already enshrined in the Constitution.

Cool - let's disband the NRA, then.

You do understand the NRA does more than lobby for gun owners right?

But hey we're going to disband the NRA.

Shut down abortion clinics, the Rainbow Coalition, the NAACP, the ACLU, any gay rights lobbyist, any transgender lobbyist, unions, lobbyists for free health care, and lobbyist for government aid.

(02-15-2018 11:54 AM)gdunn Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:49 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:42 AM)Paul M Wrote:  Shouldn't be a need for a lobby fighting for rights already enshrined in the Constitution.

Cool - let's disband the NRA, then.

You do understand the NRA does more than lobby for gun owners right?

Sure; in name. But what's their largest fundraising amounts for? It's not for the skeet shooting competition for kids that they sponsor. It's to pay politicians. Get rid of that end of things if we're serious about this.

(02-15-2018 11:57 AM)gdunn Wrote:  But hey we're going to disband the NRA.

Shut down professional lobbyists.

FYP.

In all honestly, we all know these things won't happen, but it is within our power to not vote for the people who take money from these monster organizations to have their votes unduly swayed.