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Given what we know today
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Old Blue Offline
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Post: #1
Given what we know today
The choice of whether we have significant gun control, with the frequency of these mass shottings, has been taken out of our control. Believe me, I do not come to this decision easily. I am the first in line when it comes to the rights of a free and law-abiding citizen to be able to own a gun. I totally buy into the argument that the gun is an inanimate object needing the human to operate. I totally agree with the premise that as a guard against tyranny, an armed population is the last line of defense. But the only argument concerning mass shootings, besides ignore them, that seems to make any sense at all, is more stringant gun control. So the conversation must now start. Not whether to have gun control, but rather, what is the fairest way to implement it.
02-15-2018 08:24 AM
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Machiavelli Offline
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RE: Given what we know today
02-15-2018 08:27 AM
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TigerBlue4Ever Offline
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RE: Given what we know today
(02-15-2018 08:24 AM)Old Blue Wrote:  The choice of whether we have significant gun control, with the frequency of these mass shottings, has been taken out of our control. Believe me, I do not come to this decision easily. I am the first in line when it comes to the rights of a free and law-abiding citizen to be able to own a gun. I totally buy into the argument that the gun is an inanimate object needing the human to operate. I totally agree with the premise that as a guard against tyranny, an armed population is the last line of defense. But the only argument concerning mass shootings, besides ignore them, that seems to make any sense at all, is more stringant gun control. So the conversation must now start. Not whether to have gun control, but rather, what is the fairest way to implement it.

I'm just about there myself and to call me a gun enthusiast is downplaying how much I like guns.

Before we go down that particular rabbit hole though I would prefer a discussion on how better to make our schools hard targets, on possibly arming teachers and principles and as was suggested by someone last night, make school security a specialized industry without turning our schools into prison like complexes.

I don't have the answer and I suspect there isn't one that will satisfy everyone.
02-15-2018 08:33 AM
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nomad2u2001 Offline
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RE: Given what we know today
The only way to start is for leaders to accept that not everyone is going to be happy with the implementation. It's going to simultaneously overreach and not go far enough to some. It's also going to be arbitrary in establishing what an "assault weapon" actually is.

How to get it going would be one of the greatest fights in US history.
(This post was last modified: 02-15-2018 08:37 AM by nomad2u2001.)
02-15-2018 08:37 AM
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Lord Stanley Offline
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RE: Given what we know today
Why the constant double good speak and philosophical conversations about guns?

If you want to stop shooting, repeal the Second Amendment and confiscate, through force when needed, all firearms in America.

Any other argument about gun control is to be mocked and dismissed out of hand.
02-15-2018 08:40 AM
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Kaplony Offline
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RE: Given what we know today
OK, I'll play along.


What form of gun control would have stopped yesterday's shooting?


What form of gun control would have stopped ANY of the mass shootings?
02-15-2018 08:52 AM
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TigerBlue4Ever Offline
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RE: Given what we know today
(02-15-2018 08:40 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  Why the constant double good speak and philosophical conversations about guns?

If you want to stop shooting, repeal the Second Amendment and confiscate, through force when needed, all firearms in America.

Any other argument about gun control is to be mocked and dismissed out of hand.

Even that won't stop it. If people can't legally obtain a weapon they'll find one illegally or they'll find another tool to use.
02-15-2018 08:52 AM
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Lord Stanley Offline
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RE: Given what we know today
(02-15-2018 08:52 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  Even that won't stop it. If people can't legally obtain a weapon they'll find one illegally or they'll find another tool to use.

Then the natural solution would be to enact more laws and use the threat of force to collect illegal weapons and all tools that can be used as weapons.
02-15-2018 08:57 AM
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ark30inf Offline
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RE: Given what we know today
(02-15-2018 08:24 AM)Old Blue Wrote:  The choice of whether we have significant gun control, with the frequency of these mass shottings, has been taken out of our control. Believe me, I do not come to this decision easily. I am the first in line when it comes to the rights of a free and law-abiding citizen to be able to own a gun. I totally buy into the argument that the gun is an inanimate object needing the human to operate. I totally agree with the premise that as a guard against tyranny, an armed population is the last line of defense. But the only argument concerning mass shootings, besides ignore them, that seems to make any sense at all, is more stringant gun control. So the conversation must now start. Not whether to have gun control, but rather, what is the fairest way to implement it.
Fairest way to implement it is 2/3rds of House and Senate plus 3/4ths Of State legislatures OR 2/3rds of State legislatures call for a convention of States to rewrite the Constitution.

Because unless you get rid of the right of citizens to keep and bear arms, you will have little monsters abuse it.

You can make them jump through a few more hoops, but they will do so. You can make it a little harder, but they will do it.

Or, you can try to figure out why you are producing so many little monsters and not do that.

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02-15-2018 09:05 AM
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EverRespect Offline
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RE: Given what we know today
This should have been prevented with the laws on the books. The shooter had a history of making terrorist threats against the school. That is against the law. You can't shoot up the school from prison. Now some administrators from the school, some law enforcement officials, and some shrinks belong in jail.
(This post was last modified: 02-15-2018 09:11 AM by EverRespect.)
02-15-2018 09:10 AM
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bearcatfan Offline
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RE: Given what we know today
(02-15-2018 09:05 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  You can make them jump through a few more hoops, but they will do so. You can make it a little harder, but they will do it.

This is all true, but it might be a good place to start. Don't take away the right to own these types of weapons, but perhaps make them harder to obtain.

If you want or need a weapon that apparently makes mass shootings easier maybe require additional training/safety classes and more comprehensive background checks. It might discourage one mentally ill person from going to the trouble or help weed one out during the process.

One less mass shooting is better than none.

And for the record, I am a gun owner and support ownership.
(This post was last modified: 02-15-2018 09:15 AM by bearcatfan.)
02-15-2018 09:14 AM
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b0ndsj0ns Offline
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RE: Given what we know today
Nothing is going to be done, just going to see each side dig in harder, and it will keep happening. I don’t know what the answers are to stop this kind of thing, I just know if Sandy Hook couldn’t move people to address it this won’t.
02-15-2018 09:17 AM
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Lord Stanley Offline
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RE: Given what we know today
(02-15-2018 09:14 AM)bearcatfan Wrote:  This is all true, but it might be a good place to start. Don't take away the right to own these types of weapons, but perhaps make them harder to obtain.

It is already hard to obtain a firearm in many cases.

(02-15-2018 09:14 AM)bearcatfan Wrote:  If you want or need a weapon that apparently makes mass shootings easier

An active shooter could kill 12 people with two six-shot revolvers.

(02-15-2018 09:14 AM)bearcatfan Wrote:  require additional training/safety classes and more comprehensive background checks.

We already have required training and safety classes, and comprehensive background checks.

(02-15-2018 09:14 AM)bearcatfan Wrote:  And for the record, I am a gun owner and support ownership.

Then you understand that the gun is only the tool.
02-15-2018 09:19 AM
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Jugnaut Offline
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RE: Given what we know today
(02-15-2018 08:57 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  
(02-15-2018 08:52 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  Even that won't stop it. If people can't legally obtain a weapon they'll find one illegally or they'll find another tool to use.

Then the natural solution would be to enact more laws and use the threat of force to collect illegal weapons and all tools that can be used as weapons.
They'll have to confiscate fists and feet. Two of the most prolific killer tools out there.
(This post was last modified: 02-15-2018 09:21 AM by Jugnaut.)
02-15-2018 09:21 AM
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gdunn Offline
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RE: Given what we know today
Repealing 2nd amendment won't help. Those who want to harm will find a way to get guns or other tools as put earlier in the thread.

Restricting the sale of ammo possibly could work, but I'm reminded of the surge of people stock piling ammo during the Obama administration due to fear of repealing of the 2nd amendment. So that won't work.

Restricting the sale of the guns won't work either, see above.

The reports I heard this morning said he was being evaluated he had the legal right to own a firearm. I'm just not sure we're doing enough to stop what's happening.

I don't own guns to own guns or own guns to take out to a range. The guns I have are for hunting and one pistol for home protection/checking deer cams.

It's time to have a serious talk and action. We can't live in constant fear of these events.

If Trump and Congress decide to pass some type of gun control measure or restrictions, the sales of these items will go through the roof.

I'm just not sure what can truly be done. Telling people to conceal carry will only cause more issue. That will become the next battle cry if someone abuses that privilege.

I also don't think you can completely get rid of guns. Too many sportsman and groups of that nature will become lobbyist.

I truly don't have an answer.
(This post was last modified: 02-15-2018 09:25 AM by gdunn.)
02-15-2018 09:23 AM
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Kaplony Offline
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RE: Given what we know today
(02-15-2018 09:14 AM)bearcatfan Wrote:  
(02-15-2018 09:05 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  You can make them jump through a few more hoops, but they will do so. You can make it a little harder, but they will do it.

This is all true, but it might be a good place to start. Don't take away the right to own these types of weapons, but perhaps make them harder to obtain.

If you want or need a weapon that apparently makes mass shootings easier maybe require additional training/safety classes and more comprehensive background checks. It might discourage one mentally ill person from going to the trouble or help weed one out during the process.

One less mass shooting is better than none.

And for the record, I am a gun owner and support ownership.

First, one would have to identify what kind of weapon fits what you describe.

Second, what exactly is a more comprehensive background check? And how is a background check going to stop someone like Cruz who should have already been prohibited except for the fact that multiple people failed to follow through with their responsibilities and see that he was prohibited from owning or possessing firearms?
02-15-2018 09:24 AM
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UofMstateU Offline
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RE: Given what we know today
We've had more people killed this year by people in the country illegally, yet we can count on libturds to shutdown the government or quit their jobs to protect those people. Spare me the gun control statements. I'm not listening to the garbage.
02-15-2018 09:26 AM
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bearcatfan Offline
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RE: Given what we know today
(02-15-2018 09:19 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  
(02-15-2018 09:14 AM)bearcatfan Wrote:  This is all true, but it might be a good place to start. Don't take away the right to own these types of weapons, but perhaps make them harder to obtain.

It is already hard to obtain a firearm in many cases.

(02-15-2018 09:14 AM)bearcatfan Wrote:  If you want or need a weapon that apparently makes mass shootings easier

An active shooter could kill 12 people with two six-shot revolvers.

(02-15-2018 09:14 AM)bearcatfan Wrote:  require additional training/safety classes and more comprehensive background checks.

We already have required training and safety classes, and comprehensive background checks.

(02-15-2018 09:14 AM)bearcatfan Wrote:  And for the record, I am a gun owner and support ownership.

Then you understand that the gun is only the tool.

Yes I agree with your points.

Okay - the real problem is our society. The last couple of generations have been raised and taught to accept anything and everything. They have been told that it's ok as long as you think it's ok. Well everything is not ok. There is right and wrong.

There is an overall lack or respect for people and authority. There is a lack of fear of consequences. Social media, news, news programs pitting people against each other ad-nausea also play a part.

But in most of these cases its a person that is mentally ill or deranged yet is able to understand how to obtain a weapon and prepare to use it for the purpose of killing a lot of people. How do you stop it?

I'm rambling. This is so upsetting. I wish I knew what the answer is.
(This post was last modified: 02-15-2018 09:34 AM by bearcatfan.)
02-15-2018 09:27 AM
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Lord Stanley Offline
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RE: Given what we know today
(02-15-2018 09:23 AM)gdunn Wrote:  Repealing 2nd amendment won't help. Those who want to harm will find a way to get guns or other tools as put earlier in the thread.

Repealing the Second Amendment almost certainly would have stopped this shooting. This kid had no access to anything dangerous except firearms. He wasn't going to build a bomb, or go on a stabbing spree because he's a coward. It was guns or nothing.

I truly, honestly believe it is time for the the politicians to float repealing the Second Amendment. Why are control advocates so afraid of this conversation? Let's see how the country divides up. Roll them bones, as they say.
02-15-2018 09:29 AM
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JMUDunk Offline
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Given what we know today
(02-15-2018 08:24 AM)Old Blue Wrote:  The choice of whether we have significant gun control, with the frequency of these mass shottings, has been taken out of our control. Believe me, I do not come to this decision easily. I am the first in line when it comes to the rights of a free and law-abiding citizen to be able to own a gun. I totally buy into the argument that the gun is an inanimate object needing the human to operate. I totally agree with the premise that as a guard against tyranny, an armed population is the last line of defense. But the only argument concerning mass shootings, besides ignore them, that seems to make any sense at all, is more stringant gun control. So the conversation must now start. Not whether to have gun control, but rather, what is the fairest way to implement it.


What, exactly, do we know today?

This dick was an adult, with as far as I know, no prior record. Do we start making laws and policies based on what we don’t know?

What law could have, or would have prevented this? If we can’t prevent convicted, violent, felons from getting guns, how do we prevent people with no priors, a member of student ROTC, of legal age from getting a, or many guns?

Guess we’re talking mass confiscation here and banning law abiding citizens from owning guns(?).

Maybe only our civic “leaders” should remain in possession. That should go well...
02-15-2018 09:32 AM
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