(02-20-2018 03:07 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  As sad as it is to say, I think if UL had to do it all over again, they would. Why wouldn't they? It was due to their success with their athletics program that got them an invitation to the ACC. Knowing what they know today, I don't think it changes anything 10 years ago, or five years ago. Turning a blind eye to the wrongdoing within the athletics program allowed them to have great success and get into the ACC.

I agree with this.

Even more than national titles, the ultimate prize in college athletics these days is being in a Power conference. Since the early 2000s, UofL engaged in a balls-to-the-walls program of athletic enhancement that culminated in an ACC invitation. Some of that balls-to-walls execution was 100% legit and admirable, and other aspects of it have turned out to be tawdry.

But it worked, while what my USF has done hasn't.

The loss of the national title is costly, it's a major hit to the on-court legacy. But athletic departments exist first and foremost to enhance the power of the university as a whole, and getting a Power invite is a bigger prize. And that prize isn't being stripped or vacated.

(02-21-2018 05:43 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Since you didn't explain why it's apples/oranges, I'll speculate: It's because in the Poker case you think stripping is appropriate while for whatever reason in UL's case you don't think it's appropriate. You think they really did fairly win that national title.

But one thing seems clear: Titles can indeed be stripped. The notion that because "we all saw them win it on the court" (or field, or track, etc.) that it can't be stripped is just wrong and nobody really believes that. We all believe it, depending on whether we agree that stripping fits the crime.

I had to get off the laptop really fast when I posted. Here's some expansion:

The better analogy would be if a casino, person or organization (the mob) rigged a competition for a certain gambler or got him placement where he didn't belong over other gamblers and it was later found out after he had won, though fair and square.

Your scenario is analogous to a team/school/player/associate paying off referees either throughout the year, NCAA Tournament or national title game. Had Louisville been accused of doing so, I'd be totally fine with them losing their title. The fact is, as far as we know, they won it fair and square even if they had to hire escorts to get recruits in the door. It's not exactly uncommon but that's another post.

(02-21-2018 10:30 PM)bullet Wrote:  An even bigger problem was collateral damage. The death penalty harmed all of SMU's conference mates and contributed to the death of the Southwest Conference. Rice is still paying for SMU's cheating in the 80s.

The SWC collapsed for many, many reasons. Rice would still be Rice regardless of what SMU did and Rice being Rice is partially what contributed to the collapse of the SWC, though again one of many factors.

Maybe Louisville should have used North Carolinas analogy in that those courses were available to all students, that Katrina's Hookers were also available to every student. Which actually were if you wanted to make that phone call. They were available,I'm sure also at Kentucky, Indiana, make the call and They will come. Oldest profession in the world.

(02-21-2018 10:30 PM)bullet Wrote:  An even bigger problem was collateral damage. The death penalty harmed all of SMU's conference mates and contributed to the death of the Southwest Conference. Rice is still paying for SMU's cheating in the 80s.

No offense, but I don't think I'll ever buy into that one.

Let the impacted individual schools and conferences take their proverbial pound of flesh from the wrongdoers. That's the way you make an example out of someone. We give "collateral damage" an audience, especially with SMU, when it's probably one of the worst kept secrets that the whole SWC, with maybe the exception of Rice, was doing the same things as SMU. But the 'Stangs got punished for it. And, rather than clean up their collective act, doesn't the story shift to "poor old" conference-mates impacted by the severity. That when Penn State's punishments came up, we had officials talking about how it "punishes" the conference, too. Bull****. WGAF? That logic is not how things become accountable. Because...nobody's held accountable. Not even the bad school to the extent that it should.

Higher education has no moral barometer. Or a spine.

(02-22-2018 12:30 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  

(02-21-2018 05:43 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Since you didn't explain why it's apples/oranges, I'll speculate: It's because in the Poker case you think stripping is appropriate while for whatever reason in UL's case you don't think it's appropriate. You think they really did fairly win that national title.

But one thing seems clear: Titles can indeed be stripped. The notion that because "we all saw them win it on the court" (or field, or track, etc.) that it can't be stripped is just wrong and nobody really believes that. We all believe it, depending on whether we agree that stripping fits the crime.

I had to get off the laptop really fast when I posted. Here's some expansion:

The better analogy would be if a casino, person or organization (the mob) rigged a competition for a certain gambler or got him placement where he didn't belong over other gamblers and it was later found out after he had won, though fair and square.

Your scenario is analogous to a team/school/player/associate paying off referees either throughout the year, NCAA Tournament or national title game. Had Louisville been accused of doing so, I'd be totally fine with them losing their title. The fact is, as far as we know, they won it fair and square even if they had to hire escorts to get recruits in the door. It's not exactly uncommon but that's another post.

IOW's, as I previously said, it's not -as has been claimed by some- that it is impossible to retroactively strip a title. Had UL done the things that you mention above, like paying off refs, you'd be fine with them losing the title and the fact that we have You-Tube video and a collective memory of them cutting down the nets and hoisting the trophy would be no barrier to that stripping at all.

It's just that in this case, you don't think what Louisville did rises to the level of warranting that.

Only because the NCAA is not consistent on this. Short of point shaving, as I noted, an asterisk does just fine, we all get the point.

(02-22-2018 01:24 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(02-21-2018 10:30 PM)bullet Wrote:  An even bigger problem was collateral damage. The death penalty harmed all of SMU's conference mates and contributed to the death of the Southwest Conference. Rice is still paying for SMU's cheating in the 80s.

No offense, but I don't think I'll ever buy into that one.

Let the impacted individual schools and conferences take their proverbial pound of flesh from the wrongdoers. That's the way you make an example out of someone. We give "collateral damage" an audience, especially with SMU, when it's probably one of the worst kept secrets that the whole SWC, with maybe the exception of Rice, was doing the same things as SMU. But the 'Stangs got punished for it. And, rather than clean up their collective act, doesn't the story shift to "poor old" conference-mates impacted by the severity. That when Penn State's punishments came up, we had officials talking about how it "punishes" the conference, too. Bull****. WGAF? That logic is not how things become accountable. Because...nobody's held accountable. Not even the bad school to the extent that it should.

Higher education has no moral barometer. Or a spine.

SMU was the worst. And what the rest did wasn't much different from what the SEC was doing at the time. But the NCAA tends to focus on one conference at a time. In the next decade nearly half of the Pac and nearly half of the SEC were on some form of probation at the same time.

All the schools had to scramble to fill their schedules. It was the only time Texas has played an FCS school since FCS expanded in 1982. And it hurt recruiting. Lots more went out of state. The latter is what ultimately finished off the SWC. When Texas and Texas A&M couldn't recruit as SWC members, they had to leave.

(02-22-2018 02:17 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Only because the NCAA is not consistent on this. Short of point shaving, as I noted, an asterisk does just fine, we all get the point.

Not if the banner is still flying in the arena or stadium.

Florida couldn't claim to have won an SEC title before Spurrier arrived. They had finished first at least once (I think twice), but that got vacated. They were behind Kentucky, Mississippi St., Georgia Tech and Tulane in number of SEC championships (in addition to Bama, UGA, Tennessee, Auburn, Ole Miss and LSU). They were tied with Sewanee and Vanderbilt at zero.

(02-22-2018 08:08 PM)bullet Wrote:  Florida couldn't claim to have won an SEC title before Spurrier arrived. They had finished first at least once (I think twice), but that got vacated. They were behind Kentucky, Mississippi St., Georgia Tech and Tulane in number of SEC championships (in addition to Bama, UGA, Tennessee, Auburn, Ole Miss and LSU). They were tied with Sewanee and Vanderbilt at zero.

Yes, Florida's first SEC title, their first conference title period, was in 1991, their 80th season as a member of a conference. They also had what would have been conference winning records in 1984, 1985, and 1990 but the 1984 title was stripped and in 1985 and 1990 were on probation and ineligible for the title.

It is rather amazing that Florida played 73 seasons of conference ball before they ever posted a conference winning record, even by cheating.

With the dominant presence that UF, FSU, and Miami have on the college football scene today, it may be hard for youngsters to believe that when i started watching college ball in the 1970s, FSU and Miami were literally unheard of, and Florida just barely.

(02-22-2018 08:06 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(02-22-2018 02:17 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Only because the NCAA is not consistent on this. Short of point shaving, as I noted, an asterisk does just fine, we all get the point.

Not if the banner is still flying in the arena or stadium.

So if the banner no longer flies, does that mean I or anyone here is gonna forget they won it all? Again, it's not like they paid the officials off during the NCAA Tournament as far as we know. They had illegal recruiting parties, which is hardly uncommon it's just that for some reason Louisville was punished.

My justification or not, it still happened.

(02-22-2018 08:08 PM)bullet Wrote:  Florida couldn't claim to have won an SEC title before Spurrier arrived. They had finished first at least once (I think twice), but that got vacated. They were behind Kentucky, Mississippi St., Georgia Tech and Tulane in number of SEC championships (in addition to Bama, UGA, Tennessee, Auburn, Ole Miss and LSU). They were tied with Sewanee and Vanderbilt at zero.

Conference titles aren't nearly as prestigious and notable as national titles. I get it in some senses but if you're gonna strip a national title away, at least do it for a really good reason or at least be consistent. I'm sure pretty much every national title of the last 30 years had similar cicumstances as Louisville's except for maybe Duke's. You're gonna tell me UNLV's title didn't have similar cicumstances as Louisville's latest? If so, I'll call you the biggest fool ever, especially when there's recorded evidence. I was virtually [censored] when on a recruiting trip to Texas A&M.

Not that I'm gonna convince anybody else but as I've said so many times, an asterisk is all that's needed.

(02-23-2018 04:17 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  

(02-22-2018 08:08 PM)bullet Wrote:  Florida couldn't claim to have won an SEC title before Spurrier arrived. They had finished first at least once (I think twice), but that got vacated. They were behind Kentucky, Mississippi St., Georgia Tech and Tulane in number of SEC championships (in addition to Bama, UGA, Tennessee, Auburn, Ole Miss and LSU). They were tied with Sewanee and Vanderbilt at zero.

Conference titles aren't nearly as prestigious and notable as national titles. I get it in some senses but if you're gonna strip a national title away, at least do it for a really good reason or at least be consistent. I'm sure pretty much every national title of the last 30 years had similar cicumstances as Louisville's except for maybe Duke's. You're gonna tell me UNLV's title didn't have similar cicumstances as Louisville's latest?

That's a pretty bold statement. Minimizes what UL did big-time, IMO.

No it's not a bold statement. Again, I prefer not to speak of what happened on my brother's recruitment trip.

To think that hasn't gone on to some degree with every recent champion, possibly even Duke, is totally naive.

How else do you think these finalists are getting these athletes? Nice facilities and NBA prospects help but come on. Even Rice got busted in a scandal similar to this this under Ken Hatfield for football. It wasn't as extreme but Rice of all schools!

(02-23-2018 08:18 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-23-2018 04:17 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  

(02-22-2018 08:08 PM)bullet Wrote:  Florida couldn't claim to have won an SEC title before Spurrier arrived. They had finished first at least once (I think twice), but that got vacated. They were behind Kentucky, Mississippi St., Georgia Tech and Tulane in number of SEC championships (in addition to Bama, UGA, Tennessee, Auburn, Ole Miss and LSU). They were tied with Sewanee and Vanderbilt at zero.

Conference titles aren't nearly as prestigious and notable as national titles. I get it in some senses but if you're gonna strip a national title away, at least do it for a really good reason or at least be consistent. I'm sure pretty much every national title of the last 30 years had similar cicumstances as Louisville's except for maybe Duke's. You're gonna tell me UNLV's title didn't have similar cicumstances as Louisville's latest?

That's a pretty bold statement. Minimizes what UL did big-time, IMO.

It’s more than basketball but don’t worry......none of the coaches knew what was going on.