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Detailed Peek at College Finances for Athletics
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Detailed Peek at College Finances for Athletics
(01-31-2018 05:10 PM)JRsec Wrote:  If you and others don't get that because you are so defensive of Title IX as a legal fact that you can't see the negative ramifications of it in today's economic environment, especially when the tax law impacts it, then there is nothing else for me to say on this matter. We'll all see soon enough.

FWIW, my comments here haven't been based on any beliefs i might have about the value of Title IX one way or the other. It is based strictly on my belief that the politics are such that it will not be weakened in any way.

That's it. 07-coffee3
(This post was last modified: 01-31-2018 07:56 PM by quo vadis.)
01-31-2018 07:55 PM
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Post: #42
RE: Detailed Peek at College Finances for Athletics
(01-31-2018 07:14 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-31-2018 06:19 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(01-31-2018 05:10 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Schools were flush when Title IX was approved, and the cost of athletics was a lot less. I know I was alive and there and functioning as an adult when it happened. Just look at the red ink in just the Texas schools presented in the OP. They aren't atypical.

Actually schools weren't flush at the time of Title IX being adopted. There was a recession going on, the college draft deferment had ended the year before and college enrollment dropped nationally.

It was the fact that colleges were in tight circumstances that lead to the abolition of "laundry money" and football scholarships became capped for the first time.

The school's weren't hurting. Raises for faculty were hurting. The rifts in the military after the drawback in Viet Nam had a lot of returning veterans retooling for private life.

And your take on capped scholarships had more to do with the stockpiling of athletes who would never see playing time, but were given scholarships to prevent the competition from using them than it had to do with the economy.

If people thought that football first schools today were out of control, they just didn't live through the late 60's and early 70's. U.S.C., Alabama, Ohio State, Michigan, Oklahoma, Nebraska, Texas, and so many others had stockpiles of football players on scholarship. That was hurting the game.

Saban is an anomaly compared to the practices of the football giants of the 60's and 70's.

And, as far as the recession goes, the nation had really been in one since the end of Korea. Viet Nam was the only respite from it and during those years the national debt rose from 205 million in '63 to billions by the end of the Nixon administration. Between Viet Nam and the Great Society Program of LBJ we managed to borrow for the first time from Social Security placing in jeopardy the long range viability of what had been a state mandated savings program thereby eliminating the largest nest egg the Federal Government held in reserve, and blowing the debt through the roof.

Those who profited were the major corporations, the backers of the Federal Reserve which collected interest and bought influence with the proceeds, and of course the educational research wing benefited as well. Dow and Dupont did quite nicely.

So after the artificial stimulus that cost 55,000 American Lives and spent us into a massive debt what we called a recession in the early 70's was not even a hangover.

But those on the government dole who had profited from the inflation sure thought so.

Kids today can't remember 18% APR's. I was so happy to refinance a home at 8% I could have busted with excitement.

But in spite of $2.00 gas the average American still could afford a home, eat decently, and expect good health care. I hardly call today flush! Heck, if I was depressed a six pack of Michelob was $2.25 and that was expensive beer.

Enrollment was fine. Higher Ed was propped up with all kinds of government perks. Pell grants were born a short time later. Government student loans were made available and at ridiculously low interest rate. So the Profs got their raises and COLAS became part of the vernacular and bureaucrats everywhere lived fat enough.

When people actually owned and operated family businesses, when those businesses sustained them and paid for their children's educations, when the legal bureaucracy wasn't finding ways to dip into everyone's pockets like the Sheriff of Noddingham, when Bell telephone ran secure lines free from robo calls and scamsters, when government wasn't telling me what to do and when to do it and trying to keep me from instilling some values in my children, and when a ticket to the Auburn / Alabama game was $8, I call that time not only flush, but rich and idyllic when adjusted for the inflation rate of today. The value we had so outpaced what we can afford today there is no real comparison.

Six schools dropped football in the five years after the draft deferment change.

Arkansas State had to redesign its under construction stadium because inflation was eating up the money faster than they could raise money to replace the lost value.

A friend who was an assistant AD in the south during the period is the one who told me they had to cut laundry money and scaled back scholarships because programs were short of money.
02-01-2018 09:54 AM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Detailed Peek at College Finances for Athletics
(02-01-2018 09:54 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(01-31-2018 07:14 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-31-2018 06:19 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(01-31-2018 05:10 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Schools were flush when Title IX was approved, and the cost of athletics was a lot less. I know I was alive and there and functioning as an adult when it happened. Just look at the red ink in just the Texas schools presented in the OP. They aren't atypical.

Actually schools weren't flush at the time of Title IX being adopted. There was a recession going on, the college draft deferment had ended the year before and college enrollment dropped nationally.

It was the fact that colleges were in tight circumstances that lead to the abolition of "laundry money" and football scholarships became capped for the first time.

The school's weren't hurting. Raises for faculty were hurting. The rifts in the military after the drawback in Viet Nam had a lot of returning veterans retooling for private life.

And your take on capped scholarships had more to do with the stockpiling of athletes who would never see playing time, but were given scholarships to prevent the competition from using them than it had to do with the economy.

If people thought that football first schools today were out of control, they just didn't live through the late 60's and early 70's. U.S.C., Alabama, Ohio State, Michigan, Oklahoma, Nebraska, Texas, and so many others had stockpiles of football players on scholarship. That was hurting the game.

Saban is an anomaly compared to the practices of the football giants of the 60's and 70's.

And, as far as the recession goes, the nation had really been in one since the end of Korea. Viet Nam was the only respite from it and during those years the national debt rose from 205 million in '63 to billions by the end of the Nixon administration. Between Viet Nam and the Great Society Program of LBJ we managed to borrow for the first time from Social Security placing in jeopardy the long range viability of what had been a state mandated savings program thereby eliminating the largest nest egg the Federal Government held in reserve, and blowing the debt through the roof.

Those who profited were the major corporations, the backers of the Federal Reserve which collected interest and bought influence with the proceeds, and of course the educational research wing benefited as well. Dow and Dupont did quite nicely.

So after the artificial stimulus that cost 55,000 American Lives and spent us into a massive debt what we called a recession in the early 70's was not even a hangover.

But those on the government dole who had profited from the inflation sure thought so.

Kids today can't remember 18% APR's. I was so happy to refinance a home at 8% I could have busted with excitement.

But in spite of $2.00 gas the average American still could afford a home, eat decently, and expect good health care. I hardly call today flush! Heck, if I was depressed a six pack of Michelob was $2.25 and that was expensive beer.

Enrollment was fine. Higher Ed was propped up with all kinds of government perks. Pell grants were born a short time later. Government student loans were made available and at ridiculously low interest rate. So the Profs got their raises and COLAS became part of the vernacular and bureaucrats everywhere lived fat enough.

When people actually owned and operated family businesses, when those businesses sustained them and paid for their children's educations, when the legal bureaucracy wasn't finding ways to dip into everyone's pockets like the Sheriff of Noddingham, when Bell telephone ran secure lines free from robo calls and scamsters, when government wasn't telling me what to do and when to do it and trying to keep me from instilling some values in my children, and when a ticket to the Auburn / Alabama game was $8, I call that time not only flush, but rich and idyllic when adjusted for the inflation rate of today. The value we had so outpaced what we can afford today there is no real comparison.

Six schools dropped football in the five years after the draft deferment change.

Arkansas State had to redesign its under construction stadium because inflation was eating up the money faster than they could raise money to replace the lost value.

A friend who was an assistant AD in the south during the period is the one who told me they had to cut laundry money and scaled back scholarships because programs were short of money.

At smaller schools perhaps. Scholarship limits when dealt with as an abuse, was a lifting tide that floated many more boats. it made what we now call the P5 more competitive and it helped a good number of what we now call G5 schools improve.

People forget that there were multiple reasons for the high inflation which began a shortly before Carter took office and accelerated. We had, due to the ballooning debt, downward pressure on the dollar at the same time imports were beginning to take over industries in this country. Perhaps none more noticeable at the time than the influx of fuel efficient Japanese automobiles at a time when the flat gas prices jumped from 15 cents per gallon prior to Carter to 27 cents and then over 50 cents per gallon. With Carter inflation peaked and gas went over $2 a gallon and lines formed. The inflation was actually good for stocks, but the lag time for wages made fuel costs a disproportionate part of the personal budget.

But compared to healthcare and food cost rises today it was nothing. When I talk about wealth I'm essentially getting back to the purchasing power of a dollar. Kids to day might start out with $35,000 dollar a year jobs instead of $17,000 dollar a year jobs, but their ceiling is much lower and those 35,000 dollars don't buy nearly what the 17,000 dollars did in say '74.

The Baby Boom and the GI bill built up the number of smaller colleges and universities and then the children of the Boomer's sustained them. Now, the high cost of any education (another industry where costs have ballooned) coupled with automation, and the relatively limited, and low ceiling intro jobs have led college aged kids to consider other paths in life. Sadly many of them are remaining children in their parents homes into their late 20's and in extreme cases early 30's, but also many of them are trying to live satisfied lives as wage earners. They are trying to live with less and expecting less. These kids are not going to pay for student loans, they aren't planning to ever buy a house, many of them don't plan to get married, and they sure aren't going to be buying tickets for or watching any kind of sports.
And what's more is that there are fewer of them to begin with than there were Boomer's or children of Boomers.

As the Boom and the children of the Boom created many smaller schools, with the ebbing of their lives consolidation and some school closings are inevitable. Add cultural and economic shifts to that equation and it will be stark.

In the Early 70's Troy State was NAIA. Today they are FBS. There are many many smaller programs that are simply going to return to enrollment and sports levels that were "child of Boomer" ranges and in some cases "pre Boom" levels. I don't think Troy will be one but their growth parallels the trends.

I'm sure Viet Nam helped small schools, it certainly increased enrollment standards for the larger ones. And now we see the larger schools dropping those standards accordingly for the undergraduate ranks.

There is going to be a huge cut back on higher education at the lower tiers. States are taking different approaches to this. In Alabama satellite campuses are already under stress, smaller state schools are as well. Larger state schools and schools capable of specializing are being encouraged and prepared for larger enrollment and shifts in the emphasis of their disciplines.

In Georgia they are testing a Pulbic Online approach to grade schools. The test groups have posted some stunningly successful results. In Louisiana thy are taking the passive approach of simply cutting funds rather than actively looking at forcing change or closing schools.

Part of my approach to realignment has been to see it for what it is. Yes it is a takeover of an undervalued product which has included intentional product placement and image sculpting by the corporate networks jockeying for ad revenue. But from the university level it has been an effort to attain the most PR and the greatest revenue at a time when enrollment and state and federal revenue have been declining. They are moving to the top of a pile of bodies and debris in a room filling with toxic gas in the hopes of being the ones to survive when the event is over.

Schools like Missouri and Colorado and Nebraska and Texas A&M don't leave 100 year old associations just to chase an athletic dollar. They leave for perceived security in the midst of a changing and uncertain world. They are your canary in the coal mine for just how bad things really are and how much worse they are going to get. The changes in the higher education environment are seminal as they affect all schools. Population, ROI on Higher Ed, Loss of Private Business, Increased Specialization, Automation, and the need for Post Graduate Degrees, have all made that pathway less appealing, even if it should be seen as more necessary. So we are starting the ebbing of higher education in this country and it will at least take us back to 1950's levels of the number and types of institutions that offer it, if it doesn't take us back to pre WWII levels.

And that means as demand goes down supply has to go down if those involved in higher education are expected to hold, or at least minimize the losses that will eventually be felt in their wages.

That's why there will be fewer football programs at lower levels. They simply won't be able to afford them. And Title IX only adds to that burden in ways that nobody could have predicted at the time it was enacted.

Now will politicians fight this? They have been for 20 years already. They don't like decisions, ever how necessary, that constituents don't like. This, and not Trump, is why so many feel good politicians are calling it quits. The economy, the world catching up to the U.S., the lack of 3rd World Countries to exploit for raw materials, our stagnate population that like many in Europe relies upon immigration for growth, an increased dependence upon a high tech military with the unthinkable nuclear option to maintain security, and the egregious sins of past politicians whose sole approach to their jobs was to kick the difficult decisions down the road and glean the lobby money to feather their nests, has led to this moment in time. And it's not going to be painless, it's not going to be easy, but it is necessary lest we totally implode.

We as a nation have to re-prioritize our lives. We are going to have to live more frugally, invest even more in killing non productive bureaucracies, focus on actually teaching our kids to think (reason), problem solve, and equip them for that not with technology, but first with the ability to read, understand the precision of word meanings, to comprehend how government should work, to write clearly and purposefully, and to be able to calculate math problems "in their heads". This generation has a major disconnect between theory, practice, and result. There is a fundamental lack of understanding about how why, and how, results are achieved and it is lost with the electronic devices they carry with them everywhere. Because of this disconnect they fail to understand the importance of the result they so easily obtain. Once that is reincorporated into education then their use of the wonderful high tech devices will be much more productive. And we need to refocus on having jobs that actually are useful to people on a daily basis.

Our debt is as high as it is partially because we have been engaged in an artificial stimulus of business for well over 3 decades now and all of it in avoidance of the natural ebbs in economy that come with a free market. This has created Pollyanna investing approaches. The idea that there are certain funds you can invest in and they will always go up and never go down. Well that only happens when the government puts enough free money into the economy to keep those funds viable. It is not reality. It is not capitalism. And it always collapses long term. Nothing has propped up higher education than these economic infusions. It is dire. But it is time to scale back, not because politicians and people desire it, but because it is going to happen anyway and controlling it is the less destructive approach.
(This post was last modified: 02-01-2018 03:13 PM by JRsec.)
02-01-2018 02:55 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Detailed Peek at College Finances for Athletics
(01-31-2018 07:42 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  I'll just look at G5 here for their football revenues vs. expenses (less student aid).

Houston
FB Revenue: 11.2 mill
FB Expense: 10.7 mill

North Texas
FB Revenue: 4.4 mill
FB Expense: 3.5 mill

UTEP
FB Revenue: 14.5 mill
FB Expense: 6.4 mill

The numbers to me say two things.

1) G5 football is pulling its own weight financially. That is where all the revenue is.
2) G5 salaries won't go up too much higher since the margin isn't great.

Uh, student aid counts. Those scholarships could have gone to everyone, not just those who played football. Why not just set up a Title IX for full rides for people who belong to groups that almost NEVER get FBS scholarships?

Look at UTEP for example. What's the percentage of Latinos in the student body (per UTEP, its 85%)? What is the percentage on the football team?

Look, there are many reasons why our football teams don't look like the student bodies that are largely paying for them. Lets not pretend that those scholarships incur real costs, and at the expense of other opportunities of that.

Yeah, you have to count the cost of the scholarships too.
(This post was last modified: 02-02-2018 12:22 AM by Tom in Lazybrook.)
02-02-2018 12:18 AM
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