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Is Cane Broome The X Factor?
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bearcatmark Offline
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Post: #61
RE: Is Cane Broome The X Factor?
(02-08-2018 10:20 AM)CallMeSlim Wrote:  
(02-08-2018 09:39 AM)JFlight21 Wrote:  
(02-08-2018 09:27 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  The eye test also tells anyone with eyes that work that he puts more teammates in bad positions by blowing assignments than any player who has gotten this many minutes a game in modern UC history.

Please stop peddling this nonsense. If he was such a garbage defender (as you continue to assert), he wouldn't get minutes.


and he wouldn't rate as a better defender in the defensive metrics than jenifer if he was such an inferior defender.

I'm a big metrics guy, but some of these defensive metrics don't show you everything because they are using basic box score things and missing some of the harder to measure things. A lot of what Jenifer does is his disruption of teams even getting into their offense, his ability to fight through screens and prevent teams from running what they want to run. That stuff is hard to capture in individual defensive stats.

I think Broome has some strengths that translate really well to some of the advanced defensive stats. Even some of his liabilities (taking unnecessary chances) can sometimes make him more likely to show up as a positive in the stat sheet (when he gets the steal). I think people have been a little harsh on Broome defensively, but it's because he does have trouble in one on one defense and does get out of position (both things can be very noticeable when you watch).
 
02-08-2018 10:32 AM
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eroc Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Is Cane Broome The X Factor?
(02-08-2018 09:46 AM)skylinecat Wrote:  
(02-08-2018 09:27 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  The eye test also tells anyone with eyes that work that he puts more teammates in bad positions by blowing assignments than any player who has gotten this many minutes a game in modern UC history.

What does the eye test tell you about our starting PG missing rim 3 or 4 times in 2 games on 3's? Our defense is ranked number 2 in the country on KenPom even with Broome putting "more teammates in bad positions by blowing assignments than any player who has gotten this many minutes a game in modern UC history."

EDIT: Since the SMU game, Broome has 48 points, 34 Assists, 8 Steals, 13 TO. Jenifer has 32 Points, 15 Assists, 3 Steals, 8 TO. Assuming each assist counted as 2 points, each steal counted as 2 points, each TO counted as -2 points, Broome is at 106 points since SMU. Jenifer is at 52 points. Is my "eye test" so bad that I'm missing the 54 points that Broome gave up on defense that Jenifer wouldn't have?

Out of curiosity, why are you making assumptions about point totals when actual point totals can be calculated (ergo, which of Broome's assists led to 2 pt baskets and 3 pt baskets); or which TOs actually led to opponents baskets and what those pt totals were. Just curious.
 
02-08-2018 10:35 AM
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CallMeSlim Offline
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Post: #63
RE: Is Cane Broome The X Factor?
(02-08-2018 10:32 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  
(02-08-2018 10:20 AM)CallMeSlim Wrote:  
(02-08-2018 09:39 AM)JFlight21 Wrote:  
(02-08-2018 09:27 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  The eye test also tells anyone with eyes that work that he puts more teammates in bad positions by blowing assignments than any player who has gotten this many minutes a game in modern UC history.

Please stop peddling this nonsense. If he was such a garbage defender (as you continue to assert), he wouldn't get minutes.


and he wouldn't rate as a better defender in the defensive metrics than jenifer if he was such an inferior defender.

I'm a big metrics guy, but some of these defensive metrics don't show you everything because they are using basic box score things and missing some of the harder to measure things. A lot of what Jenifer does is his disruption of teams even getting into their offense, his ability to fight through screens and prevent teams from running what they want to run. That stuff is hard to capture in individual defensive stats.

I think Broome has some strengths that translate really well to some of the advanced defensive stats. Even some of his liabilities (taking unnecessary chances) can sometimes make him more likely to show up as a positive in the stat sheet (when he gets the steal). I think people have been a little harsh on Broome defensively, but it's because he does have trouble in one on one defense and does get out of position (both things can be very noticeable when you watch).


right and i agree with all you said here. broome would likely get exposed more on the defensive end on a different team. but he's not on a different team. he's on this team and this team has 4 other guys out there to erase mistakes.


but he gets a lot of deflections and he gets a lot of steals and a lot of those go for 2 the other way. that is extremely valuable.
 
02-08-2018 10:43 AM
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skylinecat Offline
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Post: #64
RE: Is Cane Broome The X Factor?
(02-08-2018 09:59 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(02-08-2018 09:27 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  The eye test also tells anyone with eyes that work that he puts more teammates in bad positions by blowing assignments than any player who has gotten this many minutes a game in modern UC history.

Jihad Muhammad waves at you somberly through your office window.

(02-08-2018 10:35 AM)eroc Wrote:  
(02-08-2018 09:46 AM)skylinecat Wrote:  
(02-08-2018 09:27 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  The eye test also tells anyone with eyes that work that he puts more teammates in bad positions by blowing assignments than any player who has gotten this many minutes a game in modern UC history.

What does the eye test tell you about our starting PG missing rim 3 or 4 times in 2 games on 3's? Our defense is ranked number 2 in the country on KenPom even with Broome putting "more teammates in bad positions by blowing assignments than any player who has gotten this many minutes a game in modern UC history."

EDIT: Since the SMU game, Broome has 48 points, 34 Assists, 8 Steals, 13 TO. Jenifer has 32 Points, 15 Assists, 3 Steals, 8 TO. Assuming each assist counted as 2 points, each steal counted as 2 points, each TO counted as -2 points, Broome is at 106 points since SMU. Jenifer is at 52 points. Is my "eye test" so bad that I'm missing the 54 points that Broome gave up on defense that Jenifer wouldn't have?

Out of curiosity, why are you making assumptions about point totals when actual point totals can be calculated (ergo, which of Broome's assists led to 2 pt baskets and 3 pt baskets); or which TOs actually led to opponents baskets and what those pt totals were. Just curious.

Because I'm lazy/at work and was just looking at their game logs on ESPN. Would I have to actually look at the Play-by-Plays? I really don't have time to do that for 9 games for 2 different players. Also, in case anyone is wondering, I'm starting with the SMU game because Broome was out the first 2 games of the conference schedule.
 
(This post was last modified: 02-08-2018 10:48 AM by skylinecat.)
02-08-2018 10:47 AM
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Cataclysmo Offline
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Post: #65
RE: Is Cane Broome The X Factor?
You'll laugh at this comparison but that's a lot like Steph Curry.

Also, "worst defender of the modern UC era" is a bit of an overstatement. As someone else said, he wouldn't be playing if that was the case. When Kyle first arrived he was terrible on that end too. And Mick had no issues pulling him for Nysier Brooks. Not sure why it'd be different for Cane.
 
02-08-2018 10:51 AM
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JFlight21 Offline
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Post: #66
RE: Is Cane Broome The X Factor?
(02-08-2018 10:32 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  
(02-08-2018 10:20 AM)CallMeSlim Wrote:  
(02-08-2018 09:39 AM)JFlight21 Wrote:  
(02-08-2018 09:27 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  The eye test also tells anyone with eyes that work that he puts more teammates in bad positions by blowing assignments than any player who has gotten this many minutes a game in modern UC history.

Please stop peddling this nonsense. If he was such a garbage defender (as you continue to assert), he wouldn't get minutes.


and he wouldn't rate as a better defender in the defensive metrics than jenifer if he was such an inferior defender.

I'm a big metrics guy, but some of these defensive metrics don't show you everything because they are using basic box score things and missing some of the harder to measure things. A lot of what Jenifer does is his disruption of teams even getting into their offense, his ability to fight through screens and prevent teams from running what they want to run. That stuff is hard to capture in individual defensive stats.

I think Broome has some strengths that translate really well to some of the advanced defensive stats. Even some of his liabilities (taking unnecessary chances) can sometimes make him more likely to show up as a positive in the stat sheet (when he gets the steal). I think people have been a little harsh on Broome defensively, but it's because he does have trouble in one on one defense and does get out of position (both things can be very noticeable when you watch).

Opinions can be clouded because this team generally allows little to no penetration off the bounce. It's a team stocked with plus defenders. Broome may not be there yet in isolation, but he has the highest steal percentage on the team.

Rath's hardline stance on him comes off as very Deonta-esque...
 
(This post was last modified: 02-08-2018 10:56 AM by JFlight21.)
02-08-2018 10:54 AM
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eroc Offline
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Post: #67
RE: Is Cane Broome The X Factor?
(02-08-2018 09:46 AM)skylinecat Wrote:  
(02-08-2018 10:35 AM)eroc Wrote:  
(02-08-2018 09:46 AM)skylinecat Wrote:  
(02-08-2018 09:27 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  The eye test also tells anyone with eyes that work that he puts more teammates in bad positions by blowing assignments than any player who has gotten this many minutes a game in modern UC history.

What does the eye test tell you about our starting PG missing rim 3 or 4 times in 2 games on 3's? Our defense is ranked number 2 in the country on KenPom even with Broome putting "more teammates in bad positions by blowing assignments than any player who has gotten this many minutes a game in modern UC history."

EDIT: Since the SMU game, Broome has 48 points, 34 Assists, 8 Steals, 13 TO. Jenifer has 32 Points, 15 Assists, 3 Steals, 8 TO. Assuming each assist counted as 2 points, each steal counted as 2 points, each TO counted as -2 points, Broome is at 106 points since SMU. Jenifer is at 52 points. Is my "eye test" so bad that I'm missing the 54 points that Broome gave up on defense that Jenifer wouldn't have?

Out of curiosity, why are you making assumptions about point totals when actual point totals can be calculated (ergo, which of Broome's assists led to 2 pt baskets and 3 pt baskets); or which TOs actually led to opponents baskets and what those pt totals were. Just curious.

Because I'm lazy/at work and was just looking at their game logs on ESPN. Would I have to actually look at the Play-by-Plays? I really don't have time to do that for 9 games for 2 different players. Also, in case anyone is wondering, I'm starting with the SMU game because Broome was out the first 2 games of the conference schedule.

Thx. That's all i needed to know.
 
(This post was last modified: 02-08-2018 11:26 AM by eroc.)
02-08-2018 11:08 AM
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bearcatmark Offline
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Post: #68
RE: Is Cane Broome The X Factor?
(02-08-2018 10:54 AM)JFlight21 Wrote:  Opinions can be clouded because this team generally allows little to no penetration off the bounce. It's a team stocked with plus defenders. Broome may not be there yet in isolation, but he has the highest steal percentage on the team.

I don't disagree with this at all. I think his defensive liabilities in isolation are probably even more noticeable given the other players on the team. I'm not anti-Broome and think he's been used very effectively for the most part. UC has two flawed PGs, that both do different things well. Mick does a good job mixing and matching and playing to their strengths. I don't get the contentiousness on the Jenifer and Broome issues, but I guess when things are this good we need something to debate about.
 
02-08-2018 11:13 AM
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rtaylor Offline
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Post: #69
RE: Is Cane Broome The X Factor?
(01-29-2018 08:31 AM)rtaylor Wrote:  I love watching Broome play. The offense seems much faster when he is on the floor and some of the passes he makes are fantastic. Both he and JJ are averaging the same amount of minutes with Cane leading JJ in all stats except turnovers. I know Broome needs to pick it up on the defensive end, but he is a much more polished offensive player than JJ. When was the last game JJ even scored? Don't get me wrong, JJ has given this team steady floor leadership this season, but to be elite, do we need more Broome?

Yes. I bumped my own thread. If Mick would just let him play through making a mistake. Jeez.
 
02-19-2018 11:14 AM
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robertfoshizzle Offline
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Post: #70
RE: Is Cane Broome The X Factor?
(02-19-2018 11:14 AM)rtaylor Wrote:  
(01-29-2018 08:31 AM)rtaylor Wrote:  I love watching Broome play. The offense seems much faster when he is on the floor and some of the passes he makes are fantastic. Both he and JJ are averaging the same amount of minutes with Cane leading JJ in all stats except turnovers. I know Broome needs to pick it up on the defensive end, but he is a much more polished offensive player than JJ. When was the last game JJ even scored? Don't get me wrong, JJ has given this team steady floor leadership this season, but to be elite, do we need more Broome?

Yes. I bumped my own thread. If Mick would just let him play through making a mistake. Jeez.

I did a thread search to make sure there wasn't already a Cane Broome thread and this one didn't come up in the search results for some reason. But, yes -- let the man play!
 
02-19-2018 11:47 AM
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