I can't believe how big of a debate this has become.

The Grizzlies MUST get better. Given where our team and salary structure are, we have to get better through the draft. History shows that more good players come out of the top 5 picks than picks that come later. You have a bigger, better player pool to choose from when you draft 1-5. We probably don't have a pick in 2019, so we need this draft to be a good one.

We're not making the playoffs this year. We can fight to get to 35 wins, which will prove meaningless in the long run. Or, we could rest players, make trades to improve our future (potentially more draft picks), and improve our draft position for what looks to be a loaded 2018 draft. The Grizzlies have to start thinking about the future, and tanking is (ironically) a step in that direction.

(01-25-2018 12:44 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(01-25-2018 11:59 AM)cscottl1981 Wrote:  Not sure I understand the “we’re not SA” comment. We should be looking around at the best teams and taking notes on how they did it. Teams that draft in the top 5 year after year are not the types of teams we should be trying to emulate.

Because you have to be who you are. Trying to be someone else when you don't have the knowledge or ability to do so it futile.

Is Golden State trying to be SA? Cleveland? Boston? Houston? OKC?

Nope, and they are doing well.

Why shouldn't Memphis just "be" OKC instead? Or Minnesota? Certainly OKC isn't trying to be SA.

That is the point. San Antonio has succeeded THEIR way, they didn't try to be someone else.

If by drafting the best players regardless of whether or not they are top 5 draft picks, then yes. San Antonio and GS are very similar. SA has not had a top 5 pick since 1997 (fortunately they knocked that one out of the park). GS hasn't had a top 5 pick since 2002 when they drafted Mike Dunleavy. Both of those teams seem to be doing fine.

(01-25-2018 01:35 PM)cscottl1981 Wrote:  

(01-25-2018 12:44 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(01-25-2018 11:59 AM)cscottl1981 Wrote:  Not sure I understand the “we’re not SA” comment. We should be looking around at the best teams and taking notes on how they did it. Teams that draft in the top 5 year after year are not the types of teams we should be trying to emulate.

Because you have to be who you are. Trying to be someone else when you don't have the knowledge or ability to do so it futile.

Is Golden State trying to be SA? Cleveland? Boston? Houston? OKC?

Nope, and they are doing well.

Why shouldn't Memphis just "be" OKC instead? Or Minnesota? Certainly OKC isn't trying to be SA.

That is the point. San Antonio has succeeded THEIR way, they didn't try to be someone else.

If by drafting the best players regardless of whether or not they are top 5 draft picks, then yes. San Antonio and GS are very similar. SA has not had a top 5 pick since 1997 (fortunately they knocked that one out of the park). GS hasn't had a top 5 pick since 2002 when they drafted Mike Dunleavy. Both of those teams seem to be doing fine.

You are reaching and I don't know why you are so adamant about this.

GS had four lottery picks in five years (#6,7,7,and 11) Three of those were Steph, Klay, and Barnes. They flipped Epke Udoh for Andrew Bogut (a former #1 overall pick) and Stephen Jackson for Festus.

After drafting Steph, GS won 26, 36, and 26 games. In 2012, with they went to the playoffs with the starting five of:

Steph (lottery pick)
Klay (lottery pick)
Barnes (lottery pick)
David Lee (traded to GS for GS's lottery pick Anthony Randolph)
Festus (1st round pick)

The next year they added Bogut (trading their lottery pick) and acquired Iguodala in part through trading their 2004 #11 lottery pick Andris Biedrins.

Then of course, they allowed their lottery pick Barnes to leave to get Durant (the #2 overall pick).

So basically they parlayed four earlier lottery picks (Randolph, Bellinelli, Biendris, and Udoh) for Bogut and David Lee.

SA's current team:
Parker: drafted by SA
Ginobli: drafted by SA
Kyle Anderson: drafted by SA
Leonard: acquired via trade
Lemarcus: Free Agent
Pau: Free Agent
Rudy: Free Agent
Mills: Free Agent
Danny Green: Free Agent

So, four of San Antonio's five leading scorers this year were acquired by free agency.

That is the way Memphis needs to go?

Verno gave a stat yesterday that out of the top 4 seeds in each conference none of them have a top 5 draft pick that they drafted. Of course, Lebron is the exception, but he wouldn’t have gone back to Cleveland if he wasn’t from there. So the point remains, there is no magic bullet draft pick for the sh1ttiest of teams (fortunately I don’t think that is what we are). They all take time to develop, could be a bust and likely won’t be on your team by the time they hit their peak.

OKC did about as good as you can do hitting on top 5 picks with Durant, Westbrook and Harden. They still figured out a way to fudge that up.

(01-25-2018 02:32 PM)cscottl1981 Wrote:  Verno gave a stat yesterday that out of the top 4 seeds in each conference none of them have a top 5 draft pick that they drafted. Of course, Lebron is the exception, but he wouldn’t have gone back to Cleveland if he wasn’t from there. So the point remains, there is no magic bullet draft pick for the sh1ttiest of teams (fortunately I don’t think that is what we are). They all take time to develop, could be a bust and likely won’t be on your team by the time they hit their peak.

OKC did about as good as you can do hitting on top 5 picks with Durant, Westbrook and Harden. They still figured out a way to fudge that up.

You and Vernon are trying to make a point that isn't asked to be made.

It's this simple:
1) Memphis is NOT going to make the playoffs.
2) Memphis WILL be in the draft lottery.
3) Better players are available the closer you are to the first pick.
4) This year's draft projects to be deep.
5) Memphis already has veterans with injury issues or with histories of injury.
6) It isn't necessary to tax those veterans in a season that won't be a playoff season.
7) There are four of five young players who can use additional playing time for future roster consideration.
8) Assuming Memphis gets the veterans back healthy next year, they will likely be projected to be in the playoff mix.
9) While not a guarantee, adding a Bagley, a (healthy) Porter, or Ayton would be a much more important addition than Knox or Bridges.
10) This doesn't affect the longer-term play (whatever that might be) for the Grizz.

(01-25-2018 02:32 PM)cscottl1981 Wrote:  Verno gave a stat yesterday that out of the top 4 seeds in each conference none of them have a top 5 draft pick that they drafted. Of course, Lebron is the exception, but he wouldn’t have gone back to Cleveland if he wasn’t from there. So the point remains, there is no magic bullet draft pick for the sh1ttiest of teams (fortunately I don’t think that is what we are). They all take time to develop, could be a bust and likely won’t be on your team by the time they hit their peak.

OKC did about as good as you can do hitting on top 5 picks with Durant, Westbrook and Harden. They still figured out a way to fudge that up.

You and Vernon are making it sound like Memphis is trying to gut a house to the bones and build it back up by doing this, but in all reality the plan is just to add a really nice kitchen to increase value.

Some people complain when we win. That's dumb. We should still be trying to build for the future with our young guys. Fine. Don't risk further injury with Mike and Chandler. Trade Tyreke, but the ultimate goal is to get things going in an upward trend. I'm not sure what other personnel changes they could make that would result in more sufficient tanking. Maybe we should play with 4 guys instead of 5.

We have in reality 3 assets to maximize prior to the start of next season.

The trade return for Tyreke. Our high draft choice. And our MLE - mid level exception to get a free agent in July.

And we also have whatever we can get for Ennis, Wright, and Mario and our high 2nd round pick. Maybe a 2nd for Ennis, probably nothing but a trade exception for the other two. McLemore has negative value, so we are stuck with him.

Anyway, use those assets wisely and get Conley back and we'll be fine next year. Not top 4 in the West, but in the playoff hunt.

(01-25-2018 02:47 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(01-25-2018 02:32 PM)cscottl1981 Wrote:  Verno gave a stat yesterday that out of the top 4 seeds in each conference none of them have a top 5 draft pick that they drafted. Of course, Lebron is the exception, but he wouldn’t have gone back to Cleveland if he wasn’t from there. So the point remains, there is no magic bullet draft pick for the sh1ttiest of teams (fortunately I don’t think that is what we are). They all take time to develop, could be a bust and likely won’t be on your team by the time they hit their peak.

OKC did about as good as you can do hitting on top 5 picks with Durant, Westbrook and Harden. They still figured out a way to fudge that up.

You and Vernon are making it sound like Memphis is trying to gut a house to the bones and build it back up by doing this, but in all reality the plan is just to add a really nice kitchen to increase value.

In reality, we aren't super far from that. Mike and Marc aren't getting any younger. Let's just hope Mike comes back next year and is the player he was before. Who knows what we're gonna do with Chandler? I can't imagine anyone else wants him.

Which makes this draft even more important. Regardless of what picks we have, we really can't afford to miss.

But we can't just pout about Chandler and use it as an excuse not to compete. Just about every roster has bad contracts.

You maximize the vets the next two years until Marc and Chandler's contracts expire, while developing the current rookies and 2nd year guys. Add in what we can through the draft, trades and the MLE. Our situation is not that bad.

(01-25-2018 03:08 PM)cscottl1981 Wrote:  Some people complain when we win. That's dumb. We should still be trying to build for the future with our young guys. Fine. Don't risk further injury with Mike and Chandler. Trade Tyreke, but the ultimate goal is to get things going in an upward trend. I'm not sure what other personnel changes they could make that would result in more sufficient tanking. Maybe we should play with 4 guys instead of 5.

Again, you are overthinking the "tank."

No one is advocating for mothballing Selden, Brooks, and McLemore and calling up Burrell and Nichols.

As for complaining when they win, it's just a way to make light of a crappy season. Have some mocking fun in a season that sucks.

(01-25-2018 03:25 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(01-25-2018 03:08 PM)cscottl1981 Wrote:  Some people complain when we win. That's dumb. We should still be trying to build for the future with our young guys. Fine. Don't risk further injury with Mike and Chandler. Trade Tyreke, but the ultimate goal is to get things going in an upward trend. I'm not sure what other personnel changes they could make that would result in more sufficient tanking. Maybe we should play with 4 guys instead of 5.

Again, you are overthinking the "tank."

No one is advocating for mothballing Selden, Brooks, and McLemore and calling up Burrell and Nichols.

As for complaining when they win, it's just a way to make light of a crappy season. Have some mocking fun in a season that sucks.

All we really need to know about the "tank" is that Marc isn't getting traded on Feb. 8th. Mike and Chandler are untradable now, unless we take back bad contracts, which we aren't going to do.

The vet expirings, and maybe JMyke in the right deal, are out there for the taking.

As they do, the radio guys have created a stir about nothing.

Bottom line:
Everyone agrees that Grizz should trade Tyreke, or any other expendable vet.
Everyone agrees better players are available earlier in the draft.

Verno has gone on this tangent about a winning culture. Which is irrelevant to tanking, since we were already losing like crazy pre-tank. If we could just flip a switch and start winning, we wouldn't be having the tanking discussion at all.

Geoff and Gary are on a tangent about how trading Tyreke 7 games before the deadline will be the difference between "the 3rd pick and the 9th pick". Which is an outrageous statement. It MIGHT be the difference in 1 or 2 picks, not 6.

Others (maybe Bluebeard?) say things like "you gotta sit Conley" as if this isn't already happening.

Herrington talks about a "graceful tank", which is just putting lipstick on a pig. No one is actively trying to lose. Well, maybe the Kings?

(01-25-2018 03:34 PM)UpperTiger Wrote:  As they do, the radio guys have created a stir about nothing.

Geoff and Gary are on a tangent about how trading Tyreke 7 games before the deadline will be the difference between "the 3rd pick and the 9th pick". Which is an outrageous statement.

If they said that, further evidence why you don't need to listen to Geoff or Gary about the NBA.

You have to have at least a passing knowledge of the CBA to discuss NBA trades. Herrington and Verno are worth listening to.

(01-25-2018 03:41 PM)Tigx Wrote:  

(01-25-2018 03:34 PM)UpperTiger Wrote:  As they do, the radio guys have created a stir about nothing.

Geoff and Gary are on a tangent about how trading Tyreke 7 games before the deadline will be the difference between "the 3rd pick and the 9th pick". Which is an outrageous statement.

If they said that, further evidence why you don't need to listen to Geoff or Gary about the NBA.

You have to have at least a passing knowledge of the CBA to discuss NBA trades. Herrington and Verno are worth listening to.

They aren't necessarily wrong. If you take Tyreke off this team they maybe have 10-13 wins instead of the 17 they currently have. That's a difference between picking 3rd and picking 9th.

So their point is valid.

(01-26-2018 09:20 AM)tigers0830 Wrote:  

(01-25-2018 03:41 PM)Tigx Wrote:  

(01-25-2018 03:34 PM)UpperTiger Wrote:  As they do, the radio guys have created a stir about nothing.

Geoff and Gary are on a tangent about how trading Tyreke 7 games before the deadline will be the difference between "the 3rd pick and the 9th pick". Which is an outrageous statement.

If they said that, further evidence why you don't need to listen to Geoff or Gary about the NBA.

You have to have at least a passing knowledge of the CBA to discuss NBA trades. Herrington and Verno are worth listening to.

They aren't necessarily wrong. If you take Tyreke off this team they maybe have 10-13 wins instead of the 17 they currently have. That's a difference between picking 3rd and picking 9th.

So their point is valid.

Their point is, and I heard Peter Edmiston on his pod say the same thing, that the Grizz FO should trade Tyreke now, even though it means getting less back for Tyreke, to perhaps, maybe, lose an extra game or two before Feb. 8th. Which is silly.

(01-26-2018 09:20 AM)tigers0830 Wrote:  

(01-25-2018 03:41 PM)Tigx Wrote:  

(01-25-2018 03:34 PM)UpperTiger Wrote:  As they do, the radio guys have created a stir about nothing.

Geoff and Gary are on a tangent about how trading Tyreke 7 games before the deadline will be the difference between "the 3rd pick and the 9th pick". Which is an outrageous statement.

If they said that, further evidence why you don't need to listen to Geoff or Gary about the NBA.

You have to have at least a passing knowledge of the CBA to discuss NBA trades. Herrington and Verno are worth listening to.

They aren't necessarily wrong. If you take Tyreke off this team they maybe have 10-13 wins instead of the 17 they currently have. That's a difference between picking 3rd and picking 9th.

So their point is valid.

We're not talking the entire season. Tuesday/Wednesday of this week they said to trade Tyreke for a donut. Or a bag of chips. Anything to get him off the roster immediatley instead of waiting until the trade deadline in 2 weeks "because it could be the difference between the 3rd pick and the 9th pick".

Revisionist history for the whole season doesn't count.
1) We were 20+ games in before tanking was a widely considered the best option.
2) Tyreke had to prove his worth as a real trade asset.
3) Geoff and Gary didn't bring up the "trade Tyreke for a donut" discussion until the last 2 weeks when we won 5 of 7 games. And it really didn't start until we came back and beat the Sixers on Monday. The previous 3 wins were against other terrible teams.

Exactly right, Upper Tiger. Tyreke had been injured or underperformed for years. That's why we got him on a one year, $3M contract. I'm sure the league is surprised that he has proven durable this year. His value has peaked as he moved into the starting lineup, and still performed while playing additional minutes.

If those guys are so anxious to dump Tyreke for nothing, then they should at least be glad that the trade deadline was moved back a full two weeks on the NBA calendar this season. If this was last season, Tyreke wouldn't have been traded until late February.